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#102087 - 10/19/15 03:52 PM Epoch Cassette Vision and uPD77X chips  
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plgDavid Offline
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SlyDC just updated his blog with a bit more info:
http://discreteconsoles.blogspot.ca/2015/10/nec-upd774c.html

He's traced the pins of the NEC all in one micro, (thanks!)

#102088 - 10/19/15 04:05 PM Re: Epoch Cassette Vision and uPD77X chips [Re: plgDavid]  
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Awesome! laugh


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#102089 - 10/19/15 04:49 PM Re: Epoch Cassette Vision and uPD77X chips [Re: plgDavid]  
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PlgDavid: can you ask slydc to flip the pcb over in this pic: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-S0V0h08qeQ8/ViRDlpe0uPI/AAAAAAAAASc/NLHVDKUgaCw/s1600/battle%2Bvader.jpg and take a picture of the back?

The 'two missile pins' and 'two start pins' thing is confusing. Are they shorted together when the button is pushed?

LN


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#102092 - 10/19/15 05:13 PM Re: Epoch Cassette Vision and uPD77X chips [Re: plgDavid]  
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No need here are scans of mine (after removing the chip)



Last edited by plgDavid; 10/19/15 05:14 PM.
#102094 - 10/19/15 05:17 PM Re: Epoch Cassette Vision and uPD77X chips [Re: plgDavid]  
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And the Cassette Vision JR PCB scan




#102095 - 10/19/15 05:19 PM Re: Epoch Cassette Vision and uPD77X chips [Re: plgDavid]  
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#102100 - 10/19/15 07:32 PM Re: Epoch Cassette Vision and uPD77X chips [Re: plgDavid]  
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On the cartridge:
capacitor C01, I see one leg connects to upd pin 18; where does the other leg go?
Also what are the markings on capacitors C01 thru C04?
Also is resistor R02 5.6K or 5.7K? the stripe is poorly visible.
Also are there any markings on R04 to show what value/type of resistor pack it is?

LN

Last edited by Lord Nightmare; 10/19/15 07:34 PM. Reason: add question about R04

"When life gives you zombies... *CHA-CHIK!* ...you make zombie-ade!"
#102102 - 10/19/15 08:29 PM Re: Epoch Cassette Vision and uPD77X chips [Re: plgDavid]  
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Here's my hacked together diagram so far of the pinout:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/79094972/uPD77x_pinout.txt


"When life gives you zombies... *CHA-CHIK!* ...you make zombie-ade!"
#102103 - 10/19/15 09:47 PM Re: Epoch Cassette Vision and uPD77X chips [Re: plgDavid]  
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C01 1uF 50v (neg terminal goes to ground)
C02 10uF 16v
C03 1200pF (122)
C04 47nF (473)
R02 is green brown red gold (hence 5.1k Ohms 5%)
R04 7X682M

Last edited by plgDavid; 10/19/15 09:48 PM. Reason: typo
#102105 - 10/19/15 11:31 PM Re: Epoch Cassette Vision and uPD77X chips [Re: plgDavid]  
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Updated, thanks!


"When life gives you zombies... *CHA-CHIK!* ...you make zombie-ade!"
#102109 - 10/20/15 04:21 AM Re: Epoch Cassette Vision and uPD77X chips [Re: plgDavid]  
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"A user interface is like a joke. If you have to explain it, it's not that good."
#102123 - 10/20/15 08:35 PM Re: Epoch Cassette Vision and uPD77X chips [Re: plgDavid]  
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"A user interface is like a joke. If you have to explain it, it's not that good."
#103080 - 12/18/15 03:52 PM Re: Epoch Cassette Vision and uPD77X chips [Re: plgDavid]  
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http://www.ebay.com/itm/TV-Baseball-/311505438633?hash=item48872bc7a9 -- is it some Cassete Vision-based standalone game? or something unique?

#103097 - 12/18/15 10:36 PM Re: Epoch Cassette Vision and uPD77X chips [Re: plgDavid]  
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TV Baseball was released as a standalone game before Cassete Vision even existed. It was then re-released as a CV cart (Cart #2), I believe it's the exact same game, but there could be some slight changes I guess.

#103608 - 01/12/16 11:23 PM Re: Epoch Cassette Vision and uPD77X chips [Re: plgDavid]  
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Yes, both the "TV Baseball" and "Baseball" cartridge are the same game, also same for the "TV Vader" and "Battle Vader" cartridge (same chips).

If plgDavid is up to it, i can lend him soon all the cartridges as i'm waiting for the "Elevator Panic" cartridge to arrive so i'll have the entire library ready to be dumped.

Same as for the Hanimex HMG-7900, i'm waiting for the last game (Raging Turtles) to arrive soon and i'll have also the entire library for this game system.

Oh and almost forgot, i can also lend the "Epoch TV Vader" as this one is completely dead so no problem to "cut in half" the chip or give it hell! (lol!)


--- Sly DC ---
#103616 - 01/13/16 09:13 AM Re: Epoch Cassette Vision and uPD77X chips [Re: plgDavid]  
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Nice, I guess he won't be needing my games after all smile
I'm really looking forward to see if any progress can be done on these, I think the HMG-7900 carts will be easier to dump than the CV ones at least judging by the ones I looked inside, not really sure about what's inside each cart since it seems to vary a lot more than in the CV.

I think plgDavid can't dump CV carts as he seems to have sent one to LN a while back. Hopefully someone will be able to figure a way to dump these in a non-destructive way, for most games of the system this isn't a big deal though since they are pretty common.

Dumping the TV Vader would also be interesting, I was actually considering buying that TV Baseball which sold cheap, but ended not being around at the time the auction ended.
This isn't a rare game anyway, so there will be plenty of chances to get one if we need it.

#103630 - 01/13/16 04:59 PM Re: Epoch Cassette Vision and uPD77X chips [Re: plgDavid]  
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I'm waiting for one of them to be decapped (the one I sent to LN), then we might find out a way to do the others without such invasive measures.

#103631 - 01/13/16 05:14 PM Re: Epoch Cassette Vision and uPD77X chips [Re: plgDavid]  
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I'm trying to get the package sent to sean but having trouble finding the scv and s&l boards. I think I know where they are now, though.

Edit: nope. not there. I'm driving myself up the wall looking for them, I think I will have to send this package without them.

Edit2: package sent.

LN


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#103632 - 01/13/16 05:19 PM Re: Epoch Cassette Vision and uPD77X chips [Re: plgDavid]  
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@ssj: But before lending him the games, i'm still waiting for the last one to arrive and in the meantime, i'll A/V mod one of the game system and record videos for each game.

The difference between the HMG-7900 and the Cassette Vision is that the Cassette Vision uses "all-in-one" chips or aka dedicated chips with built-in program and for the HMG-7900, the D779C-300 is
also a "all-in-one" chip but can change the built-in program (in this case, the Chaser game) with other program cartridges. smile

So simply put, a Cassette Vision cartridge has a "all-in-one" dedicated chip and a HMG-7900 cartridge has only a PROM chip.


--- Sly DC ---
#103638 - 01/13/16 08:59 PM Re: Epoch Cassette Vision and uPD77X chips [Re: plgDavid]  
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Well if Sean is interested on decapping one CV board some games are pretty cheap on ebay, there are a couple available for less than $10. I'll happily pay for one of those if needed since that board seems to be MIA.

I believe previous attempts have been done to dump CV games electronically without success, but there has been a lot of progress done lately with the electronic handhelds dumping so perhaps someone will manage to figure it out.

#103639 - 01/14/16 10:01 AM Re: Epoch Cassette Vision and uPD77X chips [Re: plgDavid]  
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Great job slyDC, that is greatly impressive that you managed to secure all the hanimex library... Actually, do you have all the soundic compatible console games (I believe there were 3, including the hanimex, one from soundic and one from lansay)... Do those last 2 systems have games which are unique or Are they all part of the hanimex library?

#103676 - 01/16/16 04:35 PM Re: Epoch Cassette Vision and uPD77X chips [Re: plgDavid]  
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@ssj: There is a Baseball cartridge on Ebay for 8$ and the seller is in the US: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Epoch-cassette-vision-baseball-US-seller-/161931329940?hash=item25b3dc0194:g:gY4AAOSw-vlVhd1j

This is the cheapest ECV cart i've seen so far. Well someone will surely discover a way to dump one of these "all-in-1" chips and those NEC uPD774C to uPD779C have a program section inside the chips, which i'm assuming 1K or 2K (NEC uPD770C is only a All-in-1 Pong chip used in the Epoch System 10 & 10M2 + the Toshiba TVG-610).

@starlord: Thanks! Well i'm not the only one who has a complete HMG-7900 library and i should be getting the last game this week.
I only have the Hanimex HMG-7900 and the Soundic Programmable Colour Video Game SD-290 so if i want all models, i'm missing the SD-270 (Rollet Videocolor). And there is no unique game titles in their respective library as they use all the same games and they are fully compatible which each others.

I listed all the HMG-7900 clones on the LOVEM.E.S.S. blog but i forgot to mention which model-types they belong to. I'll post a picture with all the model-types very soon.


--- Sly DC ---
#103685 - 01/17/16 02:15 AM Re: Epoch Cassette Vision and uPD77X chips [Re: Sly DC]  
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Originally Posted By Sly DC
@ssj: There is a Baseball cartridge on Ebay for 8$ and the seller is in the US: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Epoch-cassette-vision-baseball-US-seller-/161931329940?hash=item25b3dc0194:g:gY4AAOSw-vlVhd1j

Yeah I know of that one, I'm not in the US and the guy is asking insane shipping costs for outside US. If anyone wants to pick it up and try to dump it I'll gladly pay for it as I said though.

#103704 - 01/18/16 03:19 PM Re: Epoch Cassette Vision and uPD77X chips [Re: ssj]  
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Originally Posted By ssj

Yeah I know of that one, I'm not in the US and the guy is asking insane shipping costs for outside US. If anyone wants to pick it up and try to dump it I'll gladly pay for it as I said though.


Just bought it.. urhg 35CAD.

#103713 - 01/18/16 08:20 PM Re: Epoch Cassette Vision and uPD77X chips [Re: plgDavid]  
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Ouch I was hoping someone in the US would pick it up as it would be way cheaper, the shipping costs he was asking were ridiculous.

#103717 - 01/19/16 12:52 AM Re: Epoch Cassette Vision and uPD77X chips [Re: plgDavid]  
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You shouldn't have brought it plgDavid because i can lend you my carts or i can sell you some doubles i have. SSJ is right, shipping cost outside a country is now very ridiculous, i would even say outrageous sometimes (importing/exporting).

The only thing is that i can't bring the stuff to your house as my car has a transmission problem since the beginning of this year, so it's under a pile of snow (looks like an igloo...lol!!).


--- Sly DC ---
#103718 - 01/19/16 01:49 AM Re: Epoch Cassette Vision and uPD77X chips [Re: plgDavid]  
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No worry Sly DC. I'm a compulsive crap buyer.
Just hope the decap can give us a clue on how to dump them.

Last edited by plgDavid; 01/19/16 01:50 AM.
#105106 - 04/12/16 06:58 AM Re: Epoch Cassette Vision and uPD77X chips [Re: plgDavid]  
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Sly_DC: I saw this linked from twitter: http://discreteconsoles.blogspot.ca/2015/11/hanimex-hmg-7900-cartridge-pcb-scans.html
and I believe the Motorola chips in those carts are MC6805(or less likely MC6804 which has the same pinout) mask MCU parts. They should all be dumpable, I don't think the mask MC6805 can be protected at all. It is a bit awkward to dump though.

LN


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#112216 - 01/18/18 02:02 AM Re: Epoch Cassette Vision and uPD77X chips [Re: Lord Nightmare]  
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Hi Lord Nightmare!

Sorry for the necro bump, but was wondering where my uPD77x chip I gave you is at and it it was decapped?
Cheers

#112217 - 01/18/18 04:19 AM Re: Epoch Cassette Vision and uPD77X chips [Re: plgDavid]  
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He sent me a upD777C-009 about 2 years ago- I bet that's it. I decapped it and made a top metal die shot: www.seanriddle.com/d777_metal.jpg I don't think I ever removed the top metal layer. I've got a better microscope now, so I can clean the die in acid and take another set of top metal pics, then whink it to remove the top metal layer. I can see bits in the ROM, and they'll have more contrast when I remove the top metal layer. I've decapped a few NEC chips and matched visual ROM dumps to Kevtris's electronic ROM dumps, so I might be able to make a visual dump of this one.

#112219 - 01/18/18 02:21 PM Re: Epoch Cassette Vision and uPD77X chips [Re: seanriddle]  
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Awesome update, thanks. When you mean matching Kevtris's ROM dumps, that was for which type of chips? if its upD77X, given the procedure I could dump the rest of my cartridges.
Cheers

#112224 - 01/18/18 07:02 PM Re: Epoch Cassette Vision and uPD77X chips [Re: plgDavid]  
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Sean, did you ever check with Kevin if he is able to dump these electronically? I recall checking with him a few years back and iirc he hadn't tried it by then.

I recently sent a Hanimex HMG7900 machine and some games to PeT so he could have a look at it and the machine chip is from the same family (upD779C).

ECV games aren't particularly expensive so even if the dumping process ends up being destructive wouldn't be a big deal I think, I'd love to see this one emulated that's for sure. ECV, HMG-7900 and Gakken TV Boy are some tough nuts to crack.

#112225 - 01/18/18 10:55 PM Re: Epoch Cassette Vision and uPD77X chips [Re: plgDavid]  
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Turns out I had already Whinked the chip, so I took pics with the top metal removed. I also re-composited the top metal pics and created a larger die shot: https://seanriddledecap.blogspot.com/2018/01/blog-post.html

plgDavid- I decapped chips from some games that Kevtris had already electronically dumped so that I could figure out the physical location of the ROM bits. I used that information to visually dump Fabulous Fred's D557 and Computer Gin's D650. So I was hopeful that the ROM layout was the same in the D77x.

ssj- Not recently. A couple of years ago I sent him a Cassette Vision D777 that incog had sent to me.

#112245 - 01/20/18 09:16 AM Re: Epoch Cassette Vision and uPD77X chips [Re: plgDavid]  
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Unfortunately the D777 ROM is unlike any of the other NEC chips I've decapped. There are actually 2 ROM areas: a smaller one at top center with 50 rows of 114 bits, and a larger one across the bottom of the die with 64 rows of 360 bits. The smaller one has 7 columns of 16 bits and one column of 2 bits. The larger one has 24 columns alternating between 14 and 16 bits.

I transcribed both of them visually:
www.seanriddle.com/d777_1_raw.bin for the smaller one and

www.seanriddle.com/d777_2_raw.bin for the larger one.

Since 114 isn't divisible by 8, the first file has 50x15 bytes; each row has 6 bits of padding added to the end. I also rotated the 1st ROM array 180 degrees before transcribing so that the address decoding for the 2 ROM areas had the same orientation.

Because I dumped these visually, there are likely a few errors, so please double-check them

#112601 - 02/13/18 09:13 AM Re: Epoch Cassette Vision and uPD77X chips [Re: plgDavid]  
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Anyone managed to figure something out of the dumps?
The D777 is an all-in-one micro iirc as the console board doesn't have any video or audio hardware so maybe that would explain the 2 ROM areas.

#112604 - 02/13/18 02:29 PM Re: Epoch Cassette Vision and uPD77X chips [Re: plgDavid]  
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Hey Thanks Sean!
I just noticed this topic was updated.
Wow, that is some serious puzzle.

#112743 - 02/26/18 10:49 AM Re: Epoch Cassette Vision and uPD77X chips [Re: plgDavid]  
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@ssj: for HMG7900-SD204 I think I sent you a dump of the 8049 2 years ago (this cartridge is based on a software "dumpable" 8049 clone).
but there may be a part of the 779 used for graphics or sound.

#112744 - 02/26/18 01:44 PM Re: Epoch Cassette Vision and uPD77X chips [Re: plgDavid]  
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Is that from the early TV-Game, which also uses this chip, Epoch Space Invaders?

Last edited by incog; 02/26/18 01:45 PM.
#112746 - 02/26/18 07:24 PM Re: Epoch Cassette Vision and uPD77X chips [Re: plgDavid]  
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SD204 is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l82RbXcq6qA "racing turtle"... it's not a very great game and fixed volume speaker (preset to "loud") is awfull. This console is probably the lowest level of fun of all my collection. SD203 is a bit close to Epoch Space invader but in a reduced version (no shields)

#112747 - 02/27/18 12:39 AM Re: Epoch Cassette Vision and uPD77X chips [Re: plgDavid]  
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I recently sent the HMG 7900 console and some games to PeT to see if he could make something out of it, but he wasn't able to make any progress on it. Kevtris was interested to look at it at some point, but then got too busy. I think Sean will probably be able to dump the Motorolla micros based on what I spoke with him a couple years back, but without the 779 they won't be of much use.

Yes, I believe the 8049 will use the graphics and video from the 779 and iirc SlyDC came to that conclusion when he was reverse engineering the Cassette Vision and the HMG 7900. I think all the A/V stuff is done in the 779. Either way if someone figures out to emulate the Cassette Vision I'm sure HMG 7900 will likely be possible to emulate too.

I made that dump public back then, but don't think it ever got added to the softlists probably because there is no driver for the system.

#112748 - 02/27/18 12:00 PM Re: Epoch Cassette Vision and uPD77X chips [Re: plgDavid]  
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I'm not sure the 779 as enough pins to be something really complex when the 8049 is used and the 8049 is probably almost a complete game in a microcontroler.
a very partial pinout of the 779 is (when working with the void cartridge SD201)

----------------
| U |
----| 1 42 |---- Clock 4MHz
----| 2 41 |---- VCC 5.6V
----| 3 40 |----
----| 4 39 |----
----| 5 38 |----
----| 6 37 |---- ? out video 50hz
----| 7 36 |---- ? out video 50hz
----| 8 35 |---- ? out video 50hz
----| 9 34 |---- ? out video 50hz
----|10 33 |----
out video 15khz ----|11 32 |----
----|12 31 |----
out video 15khz ----|13 30 |----
out video 15khz ----|14 29 |----
out video 15khz ----|15 28 |----
out video 15khz ----|16 27 |----
out video 15khz ----|17 26 |----
out video 15khz ----|18 25 |----
----|19 24 |----
----|20 23 |----
GND ----|21 22 |----
----------------


But now that I have a logic analyser I can make a bit more advanced search. I do not have the 8049 cartridge but I have a motorola (SD203) that is probably also an almost one chip game.

#112758 - 02/28/18 01:34 AM Re: Epoch Cassette Vision and uPD77X chips [Re: plgDavid]  
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I still think all the A/V stuff is done by the 779 and the carts only hold the game rom, PeT also seem to agree with this when he was having a look at trying to get the SD-204 dump running. From his investigations he told me:
"When it is really a 8041/MCS48 variant then the cpu core is already emulated in MAME.
The console schematics might be needed for proper understanding of the hardware for emulation.
Started emulation, but it doesn't have something like video memory.
Instead it transmits high level commands over the bus and the D779C does some rendering."

#112764 - 02/28/18 09:01 AM Re: Epoch Cassette Vision and uPD77X chips [Re: plgDavid]  
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Gilles Fétis Offline
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It think that putting some logic analyser will tell more.
My guess (but only an hypothesis for now) is that all cartridges have an MCU that takes hand controller as an input (the void SD201 cartridge is a switch to bring hand controls to the 779, and probably also another switch to discard internal game).
I do not think the system has much video memory, graphics may be generated on the fly by mcu in sync with CRT like atari VCS.
I have the console and SD203, as soon as I will reinstall my crapy logic analyser I will do some tests (in the next days I think).

#112765 - 02/28/18 09:17 AM Re: Epoch Cassette Vision and uPD77X chips [Re: plgDavid]  
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Yes, it would be nice if you could test that and try to find out for sure. SlyDC already made some progress on this, but not sure how far he went he never got back to the last email I sent him about the subject.

#112777 - 03/01/18 10:40 PM Re: Epoch Cassette Vision and uPD77X chips [Re: plgDavid]  
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Gilles Fétis Offline
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I can confirm that all connections from both hand controllers go to the cartridge connector. Also uPD779 does video and sound generation (at least for SD203 and all cartridges based on the same PCB). There is a direct connection between uPD779 and the MCU on the cartridge, there are 6 bits from cartridge MCU to uPD779 (throw an hex buffer 14050). I did not check the direction,
A great number of the uPD779 pins are unconnected.

Unfortunately I fried the SD203 MCU while connecting the ground of the logic analyser so I will need to find another cartridge (It's common and still cheap here).

#112778 - 03/02/18 02:17 AM Re: Epoch Cassette Vision and uPD77X chips [Re: plgDavid]  
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ssj Offline
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Nice, it is as suspected then. I'm sure it will work like that for all carts. Don't forget that SD-205 uses the paddle so some of those pins might be used for the paddle controller.
Too bad you fried the SD-203, there's actually another copy for sale on ebay right now, but I suppose you can get it much cheaper there.

#112779 - 03/02/18 08:56 AM Re: Epoch Cassette Vision and uPD77X chips [Re: plgDavid]  
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Gilles Fétis Offline
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the potentiometer from controller also goes to the cartridge port, in SD205 a HEF4069 hex inverter is probably used as an oscillator that is read by the MCU.
I should receive next week another console + SD203 + SD201 + SD208. I now know where I should put the analyser (and my 8chanel will be enough for the task)

#112780 - 03/02/18 09:19 AM Re: Epoch Cassette Vision and uPD77X chips [Re: plgDavid]  
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ssj Offline
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Yes, you are correct about the SD-205, you have PCB scans here:
http://discreteconsoles.blogspot.pt/2015/11/hanimex-hmg-7900-cartridge-pcb-scans.html

I also sent you an email.

#112783 - 03/03/18 11:00 AM Re: Epoch Cassette Vision and uPD77X chips [Re: plgDavid]  
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received a second HMG today. the good new is that my first SD203 is not dead (almost work in the second console but cannot start because of bad contact for the game start button).
The defect is MC14050 or the uPD779 input ports. since the 14050 is an old CMOS I hope it is the main problem (I will buy some new and supports today)
SD208 is a 8049 (does not start game for the same problem of game start I think)

#112793 - 03/03/18 06:13 PM Re: Epoch Cassette Vision and uPD77X chips [Re: plgDavid]  
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Gilles Fétis Offline
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Changed the MC14050, and the console takes cartridges again smile


[Linked Image]

It seems to be a 4 or 5 bit parallel commands sent to uPD779 (+clock and ack from 779). I will need to check values from 8049 code to see if I correctly mapped each bit
[Linked Image]

#112809 - 03/04/18 01:52 PM Re: Epoch Cassette Vision and uPD77X chips [Re: plgDavid]  
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Gilles Fétis Offline
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Advanced a bit more.
The commands are 7 bits wide + a clock from cartridge and an ack from uPD779

here is a schematic of SD208 8049 based cartridge:

basic config from 8049 is
P1 : bit 0-6 : command bit 7 : clock
P2: 4 line of IO + ack from uPD779
bus: 4 lines IO

IO lines are direction + fire + game select + game start + unknown.



[Linked Image]

#112818 - 03/06/18 01:02 AM Re: Epoch Cassette Vision and uPD77X chips [Re: plgDavid]  
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ssj Offline
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Nice to see some progress, also nice to hear you didn't fry your cart and/or console after all smile

Since the SD-208 is a 8049 too you can also dump that one right?

#112820 - 03/06/18 11:02 AM Re: Epoch Cassette Vision and uPD77X chips [Re: plgDavid]  
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Gilles Fétis Offline
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yes the dump should work, I just need to unsolder the 8049 and find my AVR dump code (my eprom programmer cannot read a 8049)

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