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#103467 - 01/03/16 07:33 PM Leap Frog (Voltmace #25)  
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I saw this at http://www.mess.org/dumping/games_needed

I have this original cartridge but do not have the skills to dump it.

Leap Frog (Voltmace #25)

I can however post it to someone to Dump, if they want to send it back to me after it has been dumped.

I also have the following Japanese Carts for the Tomy Pyuuta:
014E Pooyan ~ プーヤン (Released for Tutor as well)
015E Jungler ~ ジャングラー (Released for Tutor as well)
016E Guttang Gottong ~ ガッタンゴットン (Released as Loco-motion for Tutor)
018E Tron ~ トロン (Released as Hyperspace for Tutor)

Although these are not difficult to find or obtain, so not sure if someone would already have these and is just waiting to dump them. From what I have read I also believe there are some differences between Tron (Japan) and Hyperspace (USA) as a result of licensing agreement, so might be worth dumping both.

I also have the following Casio Loopy carts:

[XK-504] Loopy Town no Oheya ga Hoshii! (ルーピータウンのおへやがほしい!)
[XK-701] Lupiton no Wonder Palette (ルピトンのワンダーパレット) (Larger box bundled with mouse)

Again, quite easy to get hold of, so I am guessing someone already has these ready to dump.

#103472 - 01/03/16 10:04 PM Re: Leap Frog (Voltmace #25) [Re: StarshipUK]  
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Hi,

It would be awesome if you could loan us those to dump! I've been in the search for Leap Frog since years and it has already eluded me once.

Best way would probably be to ship them to Team Europe since you seem to be in the UK? He already has everything setup to dump Pyuuta and VC4000 carts so should get it done pretty fast.
I'll send you a pm for details.

There are several collectors known to have those games unfortunately none of them are willing to get them dumped which means normally we end up needing to spend a lot of money buying them ourselves.

Thanks

#103474 - 01/03/16 10:51 PM Re: Leap Frog (Voltmace #25) [Re: StarshipUK]  
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I have seen it a couple of times on EBay over the years, but got it the first time I saw it. It was in a Voltmace Database bundle which also had the rare No.24 Munch & Crunch as well, but neither have boxes (they were all the same style storage boxes for this system anyway with no artwork) or instructions. I sent a E-Mail to the owner of this page: http://amigan.1emu.net/igg/ back in 2013 about getting both carts dumped (both were undumped at the time), but he did not seem too helpful, so I left it. Still that page is a good resource for the VC4000 series machines and what games were actually released on what systems. There is also a rather good interview at http://www.old-computers.com/magazine/view.asp?r=6&a=15 with the programmer of those two games.

I just wish I had some of the machine converters which existed in very small numbers which allowed you to play different VC4000 system carts from other VC4000 systems, as most the carts were just different sizes with different pin outs, but would work on all VC4000 systems with these rare converters, where I have never seen one for sale for any system, ever and just a few pictures which show they really existed.

Please send me a PM and we can sort out addresses and details.

I am a collector of some obscure Japanese systems including these, but I also buy them to use them, so the only option I have is to buy original game carts for these systems which have no multicart or flash cart device. I guess I am a bit OCD when it comes to complete collections, but know its unlikely I will ever own all known games for some of these systems not only due to rarity but also crazy high prices which just seem to be getting higher. I often try and buy carts unboxed when I can as they are normally cheaper.

I think it is important that these rare games are archived for future preservation, which includes possible use with future flash carts or multicarts to use on original systems.

#103475 - 01/03/16 11:54 PM Re: Leap Frog (Voltmace #25) [Re: StarshipUK]  
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Originally Posted By StarshipUK
From what I have read I also believe there are some differences between Tron (Japan) and Hyperspace (USA) as a result of licensing agreement, so might be worth dumping both.


Tron should have a title screen:

#103476 - 01/04/16 02:15 AM Re: Leap Frog (Voltmace #25) [Re: StarshipUK]  
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ahah I was all over that Voltmace auction, but unfortunately the seller refused to ship outside the UK so I couldn't get it. You got a pretty good deal on that lot iirc, that's what sellers get when they restrict their auctions like that.

I know James, he is a nice guy strange that he didn't answer you. He can't dump Voltmace carts though so perhaps that was the issue, it was me who provided Munch & Crunch and some of the other undumped carts to his website (all dumped by Team Europe).

There was a multicart project started for Pyuuta, but don't think it got any development since a long time now.
Regarding the VC4000 converters, if it's just a matter of re-routing pins shouldn't be hard to build one. I believe someone was also working on a VC4000 multicart, but don't recall where I heard about it.

#103489 - 01/04/16 08:16 PM Re: Leap Frog (Voltmace #25) [Re: StarshipUK]  
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Looking back I bought a few voltmace database auctions. They are not particularly popular or collectable, so often don't sell or are quite cheap.

On Ebay I bought one back on 18/09/2011 with 7 games for £31 and a bundle with an unspecified number of games on 28 Mar 2013 for £30. I can't remember what bundle had carts 24 and 25 - but think it might have been the 2011 bundle. It also looks like I bought a system for 54p and £6.50 postage on 08/09/2009 as well, but only one of the systems I have is fully working.

The Voltmace Database is not the most reliable system ever made - I think I read somewhere that the later models made in Hong Kong were particularly cheap and unreliable, and think all had issues with cart contacts meaning you have to bang the carts in really hard on them.

I did get an answer from James, perhaps just a misunderstanding. Like I say, I do like his site and have used it a few times for reference.

Never heard of a Pyuuta multicart (I would so love one!), but very often things get announced and become vapourware. The VC4000 multicart was posted about on AtariAge back in mid-2014 as someone in Germany working on it, but not heard anything more since then.

I expect the VC4000 converter would be easy to make with converting the pins, but difficult bit would be finding correct size cart slots and moulding it in a plastic case. Probably not cheap enough to do unless it was produced in numbers, and probably not enough demand to make them. I am not very good with things like this and would probably end up blowing something or myself up trying to do this.

#103492 - 01/05/16 01:44 AM Re: Leap Frog (Voltmace #25) [Re: StarshipUK]  
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I think the lot I'm talking about was more recent, maybe 2013 or 2014 so seems it wasn't that one after all.

The easiest way to build the multicart would probably be to buy a console and use it simply for a cart slot donor. Assuming they all use proprietary connectors that is, which I'm not sure about.

#103495 - 01/05/16 07:18 AM Re: Leap Frog (Voltmace #25) [Re: ssj]  
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Maybe Tanam-San can help?
His English language skills are good.
http://www.geocities.jp/parallel_computer_inc/cart.html

#103532 - 01/06/16 05:48 PM Re: Leap Frog (Voltmace #25) [Re: StarshipUK]  
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Talking about the VC4000 clones: http://atariage.com/forums/uploads/monthly_10_2013/post-26445-0-32998000-1382768635.jpg - is the Cabel #25 "Green Spider" = Spider's Web or something unique? amigan.1emu.net db only lists the Cabel's carts upto #23, so the #24 Soccer and #25 "Green Spider" aren't there. Asking, because in Spider's Web the spider is white most of the time (it turns green only after eating the bug) and it's not very reasonable to call it "Green Spider" smile

#103544 - 01/07/16 08:06 AM Re: Leap Frog (Voltmace #25) [Re: StarshipUK]  
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Not 100% sure, but looking at the artwork alone I'm pretty confident it's the same game Spider's Web.

One way to find out for sure is to contact Adrien Scheel as he seem to own the game:
http://www.pong-picture-page.de/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=2557

I'll try to drop him a line and see if he replies.

#103549 - 01/07/16 12:57 PM Re: Leap Frog (Voltmace #25) [Re: StarshipUK]  
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Could you also ask him about the mysterious Cabel #17 "Twist"? amigan.1emu.net only mentions it as "Cabel: Game #17 (Twist) is not listed." without any comments about the game itself, whether it's unique or not.

#103595 - 01/11/16 03:29 PM Re: Leap Frog (Voltmace #25) [Re: ssj]  
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Originally Posted By ssj
I know James, he is a nice guy strange that he didn't answer you. He can't dump Voltmace carts though so perhaps that was the issue, it was me who provided Munch & Crunch and some of the other undumped carts to his website (all dumped by Team Europe).

I've mailed him, he says he answered he doesn't have any equipment, so he couldn't help with dumping (and didn't knew anyone who could). He also said most of the releases chart is a plain guesswork, only the "Archived Cartridges" section is correct, so, theoretically, all the carts should be verified and dumped, if possible. I don't see any Cabel carts in the "Archived" section, so there's a chance some unique ones could be misdetected as common releases. And he has no idea about the game released as Cabel #17 (Twist) -- on the cover there are 2 guys who look like fighters, but the only fighting game is Boxing and Cabel has it as #11, so the Twist is something else. Also looks like a sports game (since there's a green field and a coach), but Soccer is Cabel #24 and Golf is Cabel #21, so, no easy guess here as well smile

Cabel releases list, if someone needs it:
Click to reveal...

#103755 - 01/22/16 12:22 AM Re: Leap Frog (Voltmace #25) [Re: F1ReB4LL]  
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Originally Posted By F1ReB4LL
Originally Posted By ssj
I know James, he is a nice guy strange that he didn't answer you. He can't dump Voltmace carts though so perhaps that was the issue, it was me who provided Munch & Crunch and some of the other undumped carts to his website (all dumped by Team Europe).

I've mailed him, he says he answered he doesn't have any equipment, so he couldn't help with dumping (and didn't knew anyone who could).


I never said he didn't answer. I said what you have confirmed, that he did not seem too helpful. The reply just came across like he was not too bothered and just seemed odd to me on the page it says "If you have any of these games, or information about them, please email us." so I did and then seemed like it was going to be too much effort for me to help out with this. Quite the opposite of the replies I got to the post on here which have been enthusiastic to finally get this dumped.

Like I said I am sure he is a nice guy and I like that reference site, as there is not too many for these systems and games.

It would be good to also get those two Cabel carts checked out. The only way to find out and check for differences would be to dump all the carts. As mentioned at: http://www.old-computers.com/magazine/view.asp?r=6&a=15 there may have also been a defender type game prototype that never went into production. Perhaps it was originally destined to be one of those many missing numbers carts for the Database.

#103761 - 01/22/16 08:37 PM Re: Leap Frog (Voltmace #25) [Re: StarshipUK]  
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#103762 - 01/22/16 09:02 PM Re: Leap Frog (Voltmace #25) [Re: StarshipUK]  
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Code:
00000FC0  4C 45 41 50 46 52 4F 47 2E 00 00 00 00 00 00 00  LEAPFROG........
00000FD0  43 4F 50 59 52 49 47 48 54 00 31 39 38 32 00 00  COPYRIGHT.1982..
00000FE0  56 4F 4C 54 4D 41 43 45 00 4C 54 44 2E 00 00 00  VOLTMACE.LTD....
00000FF0  30 34 00 4E 4F 56 00 38 32 00 00 52 45 56 00 41  04.NOV.82..REV.A


interestingly it has a 'Rev A' string in the ROM at the end, I don't know if that means it's the first release, or there's a version without that out there too.

doesn't really run that well in MAME right now, probably very fussy about some timings that we're not accurate enough with.


Last edited by Haze; 01/22/16 09:03 PM.
#103763 - 01/22/16 11:18 PM Re: Leap Frog (Voltmace #25) [Re: StarshipUK]  
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Probably best to compare with Munch & Crunch as Derek Andrews wrote both those games as mentioned at: http://www.old-computers.com/magazine/view.asp?r=6&a=15

If that also says REV A I am guessing they are both first releases. I very much doubt different versions were made as so few carts seem to exist.

#103764 - 01/22/16 11:41 PM Re: Leap Frog (Voltmace #25) [Re: StarshipUK]  
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the other game doesn't have a little block like this, probably didn't have room in the rom for one, every byte was precious.

#103765 - 01/23/16 12:29 AM Re: Leap Frog (Voltmace #25) [Re: Haze]  
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Originally Posted By Haze
doesn't really run that well in MAME right now, probably very fussy about some timings that we're not accurate enough with.

Doesn't run properly in WinArcadia as well, flickering.

#103767 - 01/23/16 10:16 AM Re: Leap Frog (Voltmace #25) [Re: StarshipUK]  
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Thanks again for letting us dump these StarshipUK! Great to finally have all the unique VC4000 games dumped.

At least the confirmed ones, unfortunately Adrien Scheel never answered me about the Cabel games, guess he doesn't care much about preservation.

The MAME VC4000 driver still has several issues as there are glitches with a bunch of games, it definitely needs some work.

We are now also 2 games short on the Pyuuta carts dumping. The remaining 2 are insanely rare, but hopefully we will be able to get them eventually.

#103770 - 01/23/16 02:29 PM Re: Leap Frog (Voltmace #25) [Re: ssj]  
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Originally Posted By ssj
At least the confirmed ones, unfortunately Adrien Scheel never answered me about the Cabel games, guess he doesn't care much about preservation.

Well, answering if the game is unique or not isn't about preservation, I guess. But better to add the Twist into the "needed to be dumped" list.

#103774 - 01/23/16 06:50 PM Re: Leap Frog (Voltmace #25) [Re: StarshipUK]  
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I heard back from someone who burnt a ROM chip and played it successfully on a real VC4000. Possibly the first time this game has ever been played on a VC4000 and not on a Database and from what I can tell it played without any issues.

I am glad I could help with this, and will let you know if I come across any more of the missing games for Pyuuta or Loopy and also so we do not bid against each other on them. If I win them I will want to get them dumped.

#103783 - 01/23/16 11:41 PM Re: Leap Frog (Voltmace #25) [Re: StarshipUK]  
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If I come across any auctions I'll email you so we don't end up on a bidding war.

#103867 - 01/27/16 03:22 PM Re: Leap Frog (Voltmace #25) [Re: StarshipUK]  
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Regarding Green Spider and Twist:

Originally Posted By James
"Green Spider" seems to be approximately or exactly the same as "Spider's Web".

Click to reveal...

Originally Posted By James
"Twist" seems to be approximately or exactly the same as "Treasure Hunt".

Click to reveal...

#103873 - 01/27/16 05:19 PM Re: Leap Frog (Voltmace #25) [Re: StarshipUK]  
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Yep, finally got the email with that info. Adrian didn't own the carts after all so he passed the message to the owner who replied back to me.

Mystery solved!

#103895 - 01/28/16 10:46 AM Re: Leap Frog (Voltmace #25) [Re: StarshipUK]  
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Thanks for Tron (Tomy Pyuuta), whoever dump it smile

Exist a dump of the Tomy Tutor/Tomy Pyuuta demonstration cartridge?

#103902 - 01/28/16 04:45 PM Re: Leap Frog (Voltmace #25) [Re: StarshipUK]  
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Nope not yet, I'm in contact with someone that owns one and might dump it we'll see how it pans out.

#103905 - 01/28/16 06:35 PM Re: Leap Frog (Voltmace #25) [Re: ssj]  
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Originally Posted By ssj
Nope not yet, I'm in contact with someone that owns one and might dump it we'll see how it pans out.


OK, thanks. smile

#109306 - 04/02/17 12:06 PM Re: Leap Frog (Voltmace #25) [Re: StarshipUK]  
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Hi there, Derek Andrews here, original programmer of Voltmace's Munch & Crunch and Leapfrog. I just wanted to reply to a few points raised above.

The Rev A mystery on Leapfrog: Not a biggie! I probably didn't add this to Munch & Crunch simply because it didn't occur to me at the time. I was probably just happy to have finished the job I was hired to do and lived up to Voltmace's expectations; this was all learn on the job and solve problems myself. When it came to Leapfrog they were keen to stop other companies from simply copying the ROM, hence the company name in the introduction and on the bottom row of trucks. The copyright block was just another line of security and the revision identifier would have made for a quick way of identify a rom if we ever needed to make changes or bug fixes. But as far as I recall, and this was 35 years ago, there was never any revB. I used other nasty tricks in the code to discourage re-engineering such as initialising an index register with a byte of data from within an opcode rather than using a "load immediate".

Although I don't understand how these emulators operate, I can say that getting Leapfrog to display was a challenge due to the reprogramming of all the duplicate sprites. I had no fancy emulators or debuggers. As best as I remember, the development system was a proprietary Z80 based CP/M system with a simple text editor and assembler (maybe a disassembler too as I recall looking at printouts of earlier games) and a couple of 5¼-inch floppy discs. Debugging generally involved setting special bits of code to perform a visible or audible operation, such as display a number in the score digits, or changing the screen colour to see where in the display a certain piece of code was running.

I have just recently disassembled Leapfrog and am currently documenting it and trying to understand how it operates. So far the most likely thing I have found that could be breaking the emulator is the way in which the logs are displayed. Each log is the top byte (or two) of a sprite displayed at maximum size. A simple delay counter is used to determine when to collapse the size of the logs to the smallest possible and to make them invisible. It then loads the top two bytes of the lily shape, sets their position and waits for the log objects to finish displaying before programming the size of the sprites for the lillies and the last few bytes of their shape.

It is far from a ideal and a total fudge. Because of the way that the vertical position of the duplicate sprites is set in the PVI as an offset, rather than an absolute vertical coordinate, if the emulator doesn't like having the size of the logs changed part way through displaying them, then everything below them will fall apart.

#109336 - 04/06/17 06:05 PM Re: Leap Frog (Voltmace #25) [Re: Derek Andrews]  
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Originally Posted by Derek Andrews
The Rev A mystery on Leapfrog: Not a biggie! I probably didn't add this to Munch & Crunch simply because it didn't occur to me at the time. I was probably just happy to have finished the job I was hired to do and lived up to Voltmace's expectations; this was all learn on the job and solve problems myself. When it came to Leapfrog they were keen to stop other companies from simply copying the ROM, hence the company name in the introduction and on the bottom row of trucks. The copyright block was just another line of security and the revision identifier would have made for a quick way of identify a rom if we ever needed to make changes or bug fixes. But as far as I recall, and this was 35 years ago, there was never any revB.

The question wasn't about "revB", but about the initial revision. "Rev A" means the 2nd release, 1st release goes revisionless (or so-called Rev 0). 2nd release/1st bugfix goes as Rev A, 3rd release goes as Rev B, etc. So, was there anything before Rev A in your case?

#109337 - 04/06/17 07:42 PM Re: Leap Frog (Voltmace #25) [Re: StarshipUK]  
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That's not always true. Among native English speakers I think it's usually more common that "Rev. A" is the first release, if they go by letter at all.

Regarding the emulation, it sounds like it needs to do line-by-line updating.

#109338 - 04/07/17 06:17 AM Re: Leap Frog (Voltmace #25) [Re: R. Belmont]  
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Originally Posted by R. Belmont
That's not always true. Among native English speakers I think it's usually more common that "Rev. A" is the first release, if they go by letter at all.

Regarding the emulation, it sounds like it needs to do line-by-line updating.


IIRC it already does, but the timing is probably way off

#109355 - 04/12/17 05:07 PM Re: Leap Frog (Voltmace #25) [Re: F1ReB4LL]  
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The question wasn't about "revB", but about the initial revision. "Rev A" means the 2nd release, 1st release goes revisionless (or so-called Rev 0). 2nd release/1st bugfix goes as Rev A, 3rd release goes as Rev B, etc. So, was there anything before Rev A in your case?[/quote]

As far as I recall that was the one and only. You will have to pardon my ignorance regarding convention, but that was probably just my lame way of naming it for easy identification for in-house purposes should it ever be needed. I probably wasn't expecting anyone to be looking at it 3 decades later ;-)

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