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#109187 - 03/18/17 12:36 PM Trying to fix a MESS/MESSUI bug  
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fhub Offline
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Hi,

I'm trying to fix an annoying bug in MESS/MESSUI, which exists already since years:
Setting 'Options > Maximum Speed' to 50% in the module menu does not work -
it actually sets the speed to Unlimited!

I've found the token ID_THROTTLE_50 in the sources where it calls the command
set_speed(window->machine(), 500), and the corresponding entry in the module's ini-file
is "speed" with a value of 0.5 - but as already said, it's not working.

I've already experimented with these values and found that 670 (or 0.67 in the ini-file)
is the lowest value which still works, 660 (or 0.66) and lower values fail.

So far I couldn't find anything in the source files which would explain this strange problem
(and I've already checked lots of source files!) - so here's my question:
Has any of the MAME/MESS developers any idea what could cause this problem, or which
source file could be the reason for it?

Thanks,
Franz

#109188 - 03/18/17 01:04 PM Re: Trying to fix a MESS/MESSUI bug [Re: fhub]  
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Vas Crabb Online content
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When are you going to stop violating the GPL by distributing modified binaries without accompanying source?

#109189 - 03/18/17 01:44 PM Re: Trying to fix a MESS/MESSUI bug [Re: Vas Crabb]  
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Originally Posted by Vas Crabb
When are you going to stop violating the GPL by distributing modified binaries without accompanying source?


Today! smile

#109191 - 03/18/17 02:00 PM Re: Trying to fix a MESS/MESSUI bug [Re: fhub]  
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Just Desserts Offline
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Originally Posted by fhub
Originally Posted by Vas Crabb
When are you going to stop violating the GPL by distributing modified binaries without accompanying source?


Today! smile


That's great! wink

But in all seriousness, what's the best way to reproduce the bug you're describing, in discrete, step-by-step terms (imagine telling a Chess grandmaster how to win a match)? I could maybe look into it if I can actually reproduce the bug. No guarantees. smile

#109192 - 03/18/17 02:14 PM Re: Trying to fix a MESS/MESSUI bug [Re: Just Desserts]  
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Originally Posted by Just Desserts

But in all seriousness, what's the best way to reproduce the bug you're describing, in discrete, step-by-step terms (imagine telling a Chess grandmaster how to win a match)? I could maybe look into it if I can actually reproduce the bug. No guarantees. smile

Well, in principle you could test it with any chess engine implemented in MAME/MESS, but one quick and easy way is to take the module 'Chess Traveller' (driver 'chesstrv'), and I'm talking about Robbbert's MESSUI version, because this is what I usually use:

1) start this module 'chesstrv'
2) on the PC keyboard press <L> <6> <Enter> (this sets it to a higher level 6 for longer thinking times)
3) now pressing <Enter> again the chess module starts thinking:
with the default speed (i.e. 100%) it takes around 45-50 sec until it returns its move,
but when setting the speed to 50% (in the module's Options menu) the move comes already after 1-2 sec!

Exactly the same problem happens when I manually edit the "speed" setting in the chesstrv.ini file:
values>=0.67 work, but values<=0.66 fail (i.e. behave like 'unlimited' speed).

Last edited by fhub; 03/18/17 02:15 PM.
#109193 - 03/18/17 03:19 PM Re: Trying to fix a MESS/MESSUI bug [Re: fhub]  
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Hi Franz, I hope we can finally resolve the CB-Emu license problem.

As for your question: MESSUI is an old fork of MAME that's barely kept alive by 1 developer. Most MAME developers(including myself) have no technical know-how of this program. Since your problem is UI-specific, you can try asking on the MESSUI forum: http://www.1emulation.com/forums/forum/125-messui/ or send a private message to the MESSUI developer here: http://forums.bannister.org//ubbthreads.php?ubb=showprofile&User=490

#109195 - 03/18/17 04:27 PM Re: Trying to fix a MESS/MESSUI bug [Re: hap]  
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Originally Posted by hap
Hi Franz, I hope we can finally resolve the CB-Emu license problem.

Well, that depends on what is expected from me:
if it's enough that I don't publish new versions anymore, then yes -
if anyone expects that I should still publish my sources, then definitely no.

Quote

As for your question: MESSUI is an old fork of MAME that's barely kept alive by 1 developer.
...
Since your problem is UI-specific, you can try asking on the MESSUI forum

I know that this problem only happens for the versions of Robbbert's fork (BTW for all three,
MESS, MESSUI and MAMEUI), but I simply prefer the UI-versions, because they just look
and are usable like all other Windows programs, whereas MAME (without UI) looks rather
like an old-fashioned DOS program.
As for asking in the other forum: well, I don't want to join another forum just for asking about
this single bug/problem - I'm already member of so many forums.
And Robbbert is reading here (he was even active when I've started this thread), and I'm sure
he will certainly read a thread with 'MESSUI' in the title.
And I'm also sure he will be interested to look at (and fix) this problem, since MESSUI is his baby! wink

Franz

#109196 - 03/18/17 04:36 PM Re: Trying to fix a MESS/MESSUI bug [Re: fhub]  
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Originally Posted by fhub
Originally Posted by hap
Hi Franz, I hope we can finally resolve the CB-Emu license problem.

Well, that depends on what is expected from me:
if it's enough that I don't publish new versions anymore, then yes -
if anyone expects that I should still publish my sources, then definitely no.



can somebody on MAMEDEV please just begin the legal process against this guy?

there is a legal obligation for him to publish the sources for any binary that has been distributed anywhere (which unless I'm misundertanding has not been done). not only like that, but the sheer cheek of asking for support and help fixing bugs while simultaneously refusing to cooperate or give anything back is beyond any words I have, why should ANYBODY help here?

#109197 - 03/18/17 04:47 PM Re: Trying to fix a MESS/MESSUI bug [Re: fhub]  
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Defending copyrights is the responsibility of the copyright holder, eg. me. I've nagged him plenty about it, but I'm not going to take legal action or throw empty threats about suing him. smile

Franz if you want to solve the license problem by running away, that will only work if you stop distribution of older versions of CB-Emu as well.

#109198 - 03/18/17 04:48 PM Re: Trying to fix a MESS/MESSUI bug [Re: hap]  
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Originally Posted by hap
Defending copyrights is the responsibility of the copyright holder, eg. me. I've nagged him plenty about it, but I'm not going to take legal action or throw empty threats about suing him. smile

Franz if you want to solve the license problem by running away, that will only work if you stop distribution of older versions of CB-Emu as well.


Well he should at least be banned from posting here, he's a complete waste of oxygen. This kind of abuse of MAME (and let's not call it anything less) really pisses me off and sets the wrong example for everybody.

#109199 - 03/18/17 05:15 PM Re: Trying to fix a MESS/MESSUI bug [Re: fhub]  
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Sure, you have every right to be pissed off and say nasty stuff. As for me, I don't want to escalate this further and worsen my/MAME reputation at the chess computer community, the #1 source of new dumps/schematics etc. I agree with not giving him any assistence though while under license violation.

#109200 - 03/18/17 05:30 PM Re: Trying to fix a MESS/MESSUI bug [Re: hap]  
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Originally Posted by hap
Sure, you have every right to be pissed off and say nasty stuff. As for me, I don't want to escalate this further and worsen my/MAME reputation at the chess computer community, the #1 source of new dumps/schematics etc. I agree with not giving him any assistence though while under license violation.


sounds like they need to boot this parasite from their community for their own reputation moreso than anything else.

#109201 - 03/18/17 05:43 PM Re: Trying to fix a MESS/MESSUI bug [Re: fhub]  
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That won't happen. They love CB-Emu, and a lot of them think he's responsible for the emulation. Franz conveniently 'forgets' to mention the original authors(neither in the program documentation) and doesn't correct other forum users when they praise him for his work. I'm active on the MECA forums ( http://foro.meca-web.es/index.php ). Most people there understand that it's an unlicensed fork of MAME, but are allowing it anyway. It's too much of a PITA for me to go to every chesscomputer forum and explain the situation thoroughly.

#109202 - 03/18/17 06:16 PM Re: Trying to fix a MESS/MESSUI bug [Re: fhub]  
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what an absolute cunt

#109203 - 03/18/17 06:43 PM Re: Trying to fix a MESS/MESSUI bug [Re: fhub]  
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Is there some specific feature(s) of his fork that make it attractive, or is it the MAMEUI situation where people refuse to abandon what they've always known?

#109204 - 03/18/17 06:51 PM Re: Trying to fix a MESS/MESSUI bug [Re: fhub]  
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Chesspieces simulation.

As much as I hate to admit it, hardly any of them are playable in MAME and I can't think of a proper(unhacky) solution.

#109205 - 03/18/17 09:26 PM Re: Trying to fix a MESS/MESSUI bug [Re: fhub]  
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What exactly is chess pieces simulation? If it's just a representation of a board, make a fake video chip for all the chess computers to share that does it.

#109206 - 03/18/17 09:35 PM Re: Trying to fix a MESS/MESSUI bug [Re: fhub]  
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An input layer to move chesspieces with the mouse, like this: https://github.com/MisterTea/MAMEHub/blob/master/Sources/Emulator/src/mess/machine/mboard.c
(mboard.c was removed, unresolved license with Ralf Schafer)

We have a lua alternative for it in some drivers, but it doesn't work well.

#109207 - 03/18/17 10:25 PM Re: Trying to fix a MESS/MESSUI bug [Re: fhub]  
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Quote
but it doesn't work well.
That's for sure... it's horrible.

Basically, the idea is that the driver causes the various pieces to appear in the proper places on the chessboard. Using the system mouse, one can click a piece (to pick it up), then click where it should move to. The driver then makes the pieces move as needed. If the artwork has buttons, the mouse can activate them too.

The situation in MAME (last time I looked) is that a bare board is shown (just the artwork, basically), and nothing can be done. Entirely useless for users. The LUA-enabled ones sort of work, but you soon lose synchonisation between the board and the driver, rendering it useless again.

Before mboard.c existed, the code was in each driver, modified to suit that particular situation. If we were to go back to then, the perceived license situation might be able to be worked around.

From what I know, the fhub hack reinstates the old behaviour with tweaks, thus making the games fully playable. Unfortunately, this causes the issues already discussed, compounded by refusal to release the current source. There's not much point speculating further while this situation exists.

As for MESSUI, all questions must be asked on the official support forum, not here.

#109208 - 03/18/17 10:40 PM Re: Trying to fix a MESS/MESSUI bug [Re: Robbbert]  
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Originally Posted by Robbbert
The LUA-enabled ones sort of work, but you soon lose synchonisation between the board and the driver, rendering it useless again.

This could be fixed by reading the piece positions directly out of the mcu ram so they always show where it thinks they are I don't know enough about those machines to do it by myself.

Last edited by crazyc; 03/18/17 10:40 PM.
#109210 - 03/18/17 11:47 PM Re: Trying to fix a MESS/MESSUI bug [Re: fhub]  
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I'd suggest going ahead and just making your own mboard then. Have a device ROM for it with a sprite sheet in some chosen format (may as well be 24 BPP these days), and do whatever you need to to synch it.

#109214 - 03/19/17 01:03 PM Re: Trying to fix a MESS/MESSUI bug [Re: fhub]  
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If I could find myself willing to rewrite mboard.c, I would, but it's much too hacky for my taste. I'd rather have a more generic boardgame input overlay, one for all electronic boardgames.

#109217 - 03/19/17 02:46 PM Re: Trying to fix a MESS/MESSUI bug [Re: fhub]  
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Originally Posted by fhub

Has any of the MAME/MESS developers any idea what could cause this problem, or which
source file could be the reason for it?

Problem fixed - I've found the solution by myself!

BTW, thanks for calling me a 'parasite'!
I've certainly spent much more than 1000 hours in the last years with improving the chess emulations
of MAME/MESS by adding support for chess pieces, and (different to a 'parasite') got NOTHING in return -
without these improvement the chess emulations would be in fact useless for any chess player.

And don't repeat again and again, that I'm obliged to publish my sources - I've released one of my source files
a few months ago on request of a MAME developer, and this was the result:
it has been included in the MAME sources (with lots of absolutely use- and senseless modifications), but has
been removed again already 2 or 3 days later - reason: "not the method we would want to use in MAME".

So why the hell should I publish my source code if it's not convenient at all for MAME (resp. for its developer)?
No need to answer this rhetorical question, because I'm now definitely leaving this 'friendly' forum ...

Franz

#109222 - 03/19/17 11:26 PM Re: Trying to fix a MESS/MESSUI bug [Re: fhub]  
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Originally Posted by fhub
So why the hell should I publish my source code if it's not convenient at all for MAME (resp. for its developer)?

Hello Franz,

I don't know if it's the language barrier or if you really don't understand this. The GPL is nothing new, really, and I have a hard time believing that some developer today doesn't know the basic principles of how it works.

Basically, when you take code that is licensed under the GPL license, modify it, and then upload/share/provide binaries of your modified source, you are required to release the source code to your modifications. This has nothing to do with any developers, whether they like you or not, nor with the fact that your code was or was not included in MAME. It is simply a requirement of the license which you agreed to when you took the code and modified it.

People are unfriendly towards you simply because you took their source code and used it in a way which is not allowed by its license.

I'm willing to discuss this with you in German if you want (I'm assuming you speak German judging by your name) to help clear this up.

#109223 - 03/20/17 12:04 AM Re: Trying to fix a MESS/MESSUI bug [Re: fhub]  
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GPL has specifically been upheld by German courts, too, IIRC.

#109224 - 03/20/17 12:37 AM Re: Trying to fix a MESS/MESSUI bug [Re: fhub]  
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He's Austrian by the way, and good at English. The license issue was brought up by a user on the schachcomputer forums too, so it's not a language barrier. If you corner him, he'll either turn the table around and go into victim mode as seen above, or will state that he disagrees with copyright laws.

#109226 - 03/20/17 11:02 AM Re: Trying to fix a MESS/MESSUI bug [Re: fhub]  
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somewhere else entirely
Originally Posted by fhub

BTW, thanks for calling me a 'parasite'!
I've certainly spent much more than 1000 hours in the last years with improving the chess emulations
of MAME/MESS by adding support for chess pieces, and (different to a 'parasite') got NOTHING in return -
without these improvement the chess emulations would be in fact useless for any chess player.


I've spent way more than that in the last 20 years and I got nothing material in return either, and without my work (and the work of others), the chess emulations wouldn't exist. And I release my sources. So yeah, you're a parasite, and proud of it as far as I can say.

OG.

#109227 - 03/20/17 01:23 PM Re: Trying to fix a MESS/MESSUI bug [Re: fhub]  
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Ditto. I've spent thousands of hours and tens of thousands of dollars advancing MAME over the last 20 years, including extensive work on the 68000 family which I know the chess computers use. And I release my sources.

I don't think it's principle with this guy, I think he's ashamed of his work.

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