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MESS Dumping Project ?

Posted By: ht1848

MESS Dumping Project ? - 02/27/07 04:39 AM

So in the last week there have been a few threads have hinted at the need for a MESS dumping project.

What if we create a wiki where people can post information on wants and needs? Sort of a running wish list. The more details the better (ebay link ftw).

I know I'd be willing to help out and fund a purchase here and there if I actually knew what to buy. Also we could potentially track what people have if it is needed at a later date. e.g. I have a collection of channelf carts that if they are ever needed again, no point in buying them...

The new svn deal looks like it has a wiki section http://messdev.fdns.net:8000/tractest/wiki , But I admit I have not logged in yet or know if that is the best place for such thing. Unless someone is willing to be a cash collector/lead purchaser this might be the best first step.

Any thoughts?

ht
Posted By: XulChris

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 02/27/07 04:58 AM

Please use The Official MESS Wiki

I know this isn't linked anywhere on the main site yet, we are waiting to see if it gets abused by kiddies first (which I seriously doubt will happen, but mamedevs promise me it will).
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 02/27/07 04:59 AM

It will - the MAME entry on Wikipedia gets vandalized on a pretty regular basis.
Posted By: ht1848

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 02/27/07 05:15 AM

Chris - Is that MESS only or MAME/MESS like the title says? I thought mamedev was using http://www.mamedev.org/devwiki/index.php?title=Main_Page

Either way I'll take a look later and add a page for a MESS dumping page. Seems like a good place.

Posted By: Duke

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 02/27/07 05:51 AM

That MAME/MESS is in the title because we want to add a complete reference to all internal MESS functions, and a lot of those come from MAME.

Also it was actually created before the MAMEDev one (though not public).
Posted By: judge

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 02/27/07 05:56 AM

While working on several drivers I've also been buying hardware and software to dump here and there.
Posted By: ht1848

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 02/27/07 06:36 AM

I whipped up some basic intro text to put into MESS wiki.

But...

I don't have permission to create the page. Chris or Duke can you help? You can see link on the start page. If you create it I will toss in my first draft in there and we can edit from there...

Thanks.

my error when I try to save page...
Quote:
This topic does not exist yet

You’ve followed a link to a topic that doesn’t exist yet. If permissions allow, you may create it by using the Create this page button.


Posted By: MooglyGuy

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 02/27/07 06:44 AM

I can provide any necessary FTP space and then some in order to provide a centralized location for newly-dumped or other unMESSed ROMs, you'd just have to bear with an upload cap of 80 kilobytes a second. Since that can quickly get into nebulous legal territory, however, contact me in private on IRC about it. I'm probably going to be at work through the night tonight, but I'll check my messages at around 10PM EST tomorrow.
Posted By: Duke

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 02/27/07 06:52 AM

ht1848: Not sure what went wrong there. I have created a page at http://redump.emubase.de/dev/dumping:info for you. Subpages should be under as dumping:<page> then.

The "reference" namespace should be reserved for info about the internal MAME/MESS workings.

EDIT: There was something wrong with the permissions, it's fixed now.
Posted By: MooglyGuy

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 02/27/07 06:53 AM

Originally Posted By ht1848
I whipped up some basic intro text to put into MESS wiki.

But...

I don't have permission to create the page. Chris or Duke can you help? You can see link on the start page. If you create it I will toss in my first draft in there and we can edit from there...


That's not an error per se, it just means that somebody didn't set it up right. I just registered as MooglyGuy, logged in, and tried to create an initial Lorem ipsum version of the page, and it didn't save any of the changes when I clicked "Save".
Posted By: MooglyGuy

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 02/27/07 07:03 AM

FYI, this Wiki software really sucks compared to MediaWiki. Would it have killed you guys to take a cue from the MAMEdev wiki? If the issue is setting it up, I'm sure one of you could've talked to Aaron, so I'd really love some justification for not using the same software.
Posted By: Duke

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 02/27/07 07:35 AM

It sucks because it doesn't use the same syntax as MediaWiki? Do you have any real problems? FYI, I like DokuWiki much more than MediaWiki. And I don't need any justification, if you don't like it don't use it.
Posted By: MooglyGuy

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 02/27/07 07:53 AM

Originally Posted By Duke
It sucks because it doesn't use the same syntax as MediaWiki?


Pretty much, yes.

Originally Posted By Duke
Do you have any real problems?


Apart from the already-noted issue where it seems that neither I nor the person before me can create new pages, only edit existing ones? And the fact that the syntax is markedly more baroque? No, none at all.

Originally Posted By Duke
if you don't like it don't use it.


Will do.
Posted By: Duke

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 02/27/07 07:55 AM

I already posted that this issue with creating new pages is fixed.
Posted By: MooglyGuy

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 02/27/07 07:57 AM

Originally Posted By Duke
I already posted that this issue with creating new pages is fixed.


In that case, yes, my only issue lies with its baroque syntactical styles. I'll make an effort to try to learn it, but it's just that it's enough of a pain in the ass to have to know two different formats of Wiki markup while I'm at work, let alone a third one when I'm at home.
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 02/28/07 10:14 AM

That's a good start with the dumping project page. For some we'll need to clear up just what needs to be dumped. I know some FM Towns Marty games have been dumped and can be played in emulators, but does the entry means the real BIOS haven't been dumped? I'll try to add some more systems and more information when I get a chance.

Lately, I've been working on a list of undumped Japanese systems, with the intention of tracking some of these down with the help of Guru's Japanese contact. At least a couple of people have mentioned wanting to donate for MESS dumping, so this could be a good opportunity.

I'll start out with a list of completely undumped consoles/portables released only in Japan. In most cases, we'd probably need to find these to know how difficult dumping would be. (The 64DD is an exception, since no ones knows how to dump it, but I'll include it for completeness.)

My plan is to first run the list by the people here, in case it turns out something actually has been dumped, or something is missing. Then I can update the Wiki and send a list to Guru. Some of these have already been mentioned on the Wiki, but I've got at least a bit more information. Later, the effort can be expanded to partially dumped systems, i.e. figuring out what games still need to be dumped.

Bandai Supervision 8000 -- first cartridge-based original Japanese system, from 1979, not related to the Watara Supervision
http://darkwatcher.psxfanatics.com/console/supervision.htm

Epoch Cassette Vision -- 1981, Ian Knowles posted about having one, is it available for dumping? This was also updated as the Cassette Vision Jr. in 1983. A follow-on, the Super Cassette Vision, has been emulated.
http://darkwatcher.psxfanatics.com/console/epoch.htm

My Vision -- 1983 by Nichibutsu
http://darkwatcher.psxfanatics.com/console/myvision.htm

Casio PV-1000 -- 1983
http://darkwatcher.psxfanatics.com/console/pv1000.htm

Gakken Compact Vision (TV Boy) -- 1983
http://darkwatcher.psxfanatics.com/console/gakken.htm

Nintendo 64DD -- 1999, disk add-on for the Nintendo 64. Any idea how to dump these?
http://64dd.emedian.eu/64dd.net/modules/news/

Casio Loopy "My Seal Computer" -- 1995
http://darkwatcher.psxfanatics.com/console/loopy.htm

Pasago -- portable by Koei with carts based on famous Go tournaments, hard to find much info on this, not even sure about the year of release:
http://assemblergames.com/wiki/dogatemysnes/pmwiki.php?n=Topics.KoeiPasago
http://ultimateconsoledatabase.com/portables/pasago_go.htm

Bandai Telebiko -- obscure VHS-based system, not sure about the year:
http://ultimateconsoledatabase.com/Morinfo/bandai_telebiko.htm
Posted By: ht1848

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/01/07 02:13 AM

Dumping page is looking good. Still need to think about how to rally the supporters if something available comes up or how to get them dumped (Is the default answer send to Guru?).

http://cgi.ebay.com/BANDAI-PLAYDIA-MINT-...1QQcmdZViewItem

Bandai playdia system on ebay right now. no bids yet. Not sure how rare it is...so can't say it is worth it or not. Anyone know?



Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/01/07 06:46 AM

Originally Posted By ht1848
Bandai playdia system on ebay right now. no bids yet. Not sure how rare it is...so can't say it is worth it or not. Anyone know?


Games for this system are hard to find but the consoles often come up on ebay, its not worth buying without any games bundled with it imho. This is a strange case of a edutainment console for kids being turned into a hentai games machine... most of the games on it are "idol" games filled with anime schoolgirl porn. Not that is a bad thing.

It is also horribly hard to find any decent software/games for the Pippin, I wish I would of held out until a console bundled with games showed its head on eBay. The 6 cd's that came with mine are all crap (they are the ones that came bundled with the system originally 4 or 5 of them need the pippins internet connection to work and one of them is a software catalouge. Nothing playable other than some paint programme.
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/02/07 11:19 AM

Originally Posted By ht1848
Dumping page is looking good. Still need to think about how to rally the supporters if something available comes up or how to get them dumped (Is the default answer send to Guru?).


Well, that's definitely an option to consider. Guru's said that he'll dump anything. Of course this involves shipping to Australia and he probably won't reverse engineer any unique hardware. I sent him a Tiger R-Zone and some games and he's not sure what to do with them (the carts use something like an epoxy block, I think).

Ideally we should have a group of volunteers in different regions for various duties, like buying things on eBay and dumping different types of hardware. I've been planning to update the Wiki over the weekend, so I'll try to get something started in this regard.
Posted By: judge

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/02/07 02:54 PM

Oh, cool, an R-Zone.

There's just so many stuff out there that's still not dumped..
Posted By: I Knowles

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/03/07 05:09 AM

Wow I havn't been here for a long time this is great news to come back to. I bought a Yeno (Super? will check next time im home) Cassette vision and some microvision cartridges awhile back in view of working myself up to dumping them but I havn't had time with Uni. If they need dumping still I'll happily make them available, I doubt i'd be able to handle the microvision cartridges anyway what little I read on them said they each contain a processor with no shielding and touching the contacts is enough to fry the thing

As for the wiki I wouldn't worry much about vandalism, I admin a small wiki at Wikia.com and its not really a problem. I don't know much about Dokuwiki but for a small Mediawiki wiki watching for vandalism is trivial.
Posted By: I Knowles

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/03/07 05:35 AM

I also have some crappy thing from china, its a modern knock-off of a NES probably of little interest but mame includes pirate machines so maybe its wanted. and a Philips Videopac G7000 (European Odyssey¬?). I'm not sure how different the videopac is internally from any other Odyssey¬? but its available if anyone wants to check
Posted By: ht1848

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/03/07 12:37 PM

http://stores.ebay.com/hisashi110321

Has 3 systems up now...
Casio Loopy sv-100
NEC PC-FX
Bandai Pladia with 2 games

Watch the +$40 Shipping charge if you bid! I am not.

Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/03/07 01:56 PM

That's kinda cool, I'd never heard of the Casio Loopy before.
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/04/07 01:58 AM

Originally Posted By R. Belmont
That's kinda cool, I'd never heard of the Casio Loopy before.


It was a console designed for young girls. Fashion games, stickers, and lots of pink. :-)

http://darkwatcher.psxfanatics.com/console/loopy.htm
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/04/07 02:55 AM

Originally Posted By Ian Knowles
Wow I havn't been here for a long time this is great news to come back to. I bought a Yeno (Super? will check next time im home) Cassette vision and some microvision cartridges awhile back in view of working myself up to dumping them but I havn't had time with Uni. If they need dumping still I'll happily make them available, I doubt i'd be able to handle the microvision cartridges anyway what little I read on them said they each contain a processor with no shielding and touching the contacts is enough to fry the thing


Yeah, definitely check on the Cassette Vision when you get the chance. The first version is completely undumped as far as I can tell. Some dumping has been done for the Super Cassette Vision, but I'm not yet sure how complete it is.

As for Microvision dumping, hopefully Lord Nightmare will have good news to report soon, as I take it he's working on the Speak & Spell, which uses a similar microprocessor.
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/04/07 03:35 AM

I've added a Wiki section to volunteer for purchasing and dumping responsibilities. Please check it out and add your name if you're able to help.
Posted By: I Knowles

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/04/07 04:31 AM

I had a quick check at some pictures online its the super and a few games. I don't think the original ever hit Europe.
Posted By: I Knowles

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/04/07 04:38 AM

does the wiki not have talk pages? I can't see any. Normally i'd be happy to help with eBay purchases but my ISP have been screwing with my connection and eBay is one of the few sites I can never reach, if the situation changes I can make purchases within the UK/Europe.
Posted By: Duke

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/04/07 04:47 AM

Just create a new page in the dumping namespace, maybe dumping:talk or dumping:discussion or dumping:chat. This can be linked from the main page then.

ranger_lennier: Great work with the page, maybe we should split the page though? Maybe the systems people own and the systems that need dumping should have their own page.
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/04/07 05:18 AM

Originally Posted By Ian Knowles
I had a quick check at some pictures online its the super and a few games. I don't think the original ever hit Europe.


Yes, the Super Cassette Vision was released by Epoch in Japan and by Yeno in France. The Cassette Vision and Cassette Vision Jr. is Japan-only.

I found a page with a Super Cassette Vision and Casio PV-1000 emulator, so at least some games for these systems have been dumped. I'm not sure if anything's missing, though. Maybe I need to up my Poke-ROM skilz. :-)

http://www1.interq.or.jp/~t-takeda/top.html
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/04/07 05:19 AM

Originally Posted By Duke

ranger_lennier: Great work with the page, maybe we should split the page though? Maybe the systems people own and the systems that need dumping should have their own page.


I don't have a problem with splitting it up some, especially as the page grows.
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/04/07 05:42 AM

Originally Posted By judge
Oh, cool, an R-Zone.

There's just so many stuff out there that's still not dumped..


The R-Zone is actually pretty crappy. The games are like Tiger's LCD games, except with cartridges. Someone will probably need to look at the hardware in some detail to figure out how to dump it.

And speaking of LCD games and undumped games, there are a huge number of dedicated portable games out there which could be dumped and emulated. But that would be a huge task.
Posted By: judge

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/04/07 05:49 AM

Yeah, I know. And most of them are also pretty crappy.

I've actually also been thinking about game & watch, but those will be incredibly hard or expensive to get dumped.
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/04/07 06:22 AM

Originally Posted By judge
I've actually also been thinking about game & watch, but those will be incredibly hard or expensive to get dumped.


VERY expensive, i've seen game & watch games go for £200 each
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/04/07 07:00 AM

Originally Posted By judge
Yeah, I know. And most of them are also pretty crappy.

I've actually also been thinking about game & watch, but those will be incredibly hard or expensive to get dumped.


I played a Zelda Game & Watch once at a game convention and it was better than I expected.

Do you know what kind of hardware the Game & Watch uses?

I think the price varies widely depending upon the game, so maybe we could get a few cheaper ones to start with. If they can be dumped non-destructively, we could save a lot of money by reselling them afterwards.
Posted By: Duke

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/04/07 07:15 AM

Zelda at least uses a single ASIC. Here is a page with more details: http://18minutes.net/kennchen/zelda.html
Posted By: I Knowles

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/15/07 02:30 AM

my internet problems have been sorted so I can help with UK purchasing now
Posted By: ht1848

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/15/07 04:26 AM

Page is looking pretty solid. I even bid (and lost) on a old system from the page this week. Next time it comes up...

I admit I don't love the wiki software, just a couple of things bug me. Probably the biggest is recent change page only shows last change of any particular page. You have to go to the specific page and look at old revisions. Also diffs can only be done vs. current page not any version vs any other version. Change page has much less info than mediawiki.

The whole domain:page structure thing seems a little too formal for my taste. I suppose I am missing something here...maybe for a huge project it would help keep things organized.

I do like what they have done with mamedev.org and mamewiki. Looks nice.

Can we get a link to the the wiki from mess.org? Same with the svn tracker?

My only issue with the tracker is the bug # link to the svn ticket number not bugzilla. That was a nice feature of the old Wip page. Is that a fixable option?

Alright end of complaining. I appreciate those who took the time to set it up. sorry. I woke up on the wrong side of DST this week. arrrgh. MG post another wip update!
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/15/07 08:57 AM

Originally Posted By Ian Knowles
my internet problems have been sorted so I can help with UK purchasing now


It's good to have a European volunteer (and we could use more). I've actually been watching a French eBay auction for four Gamate games (Item #130086019392). I could buy it, but the seller wants to charge 15 EUR to ship to the U.S. Maybe shipping to the U.K. would be cheaper, though obviously France would be ideal. Let me know if you're interested.

One thing you might watch for is undumped Supervision games, as I've seen those come up for sale in the U.K. before. I already have some undumped ones, but some of the ones I sent Guru seem to not be fully working. If you find anything I can let you know the current status of it.
Posted By: I Knowles

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/15/07 09:59 AM

not being able to see all recent changes will make patrolling for vandalism a bit tedious. You'd have to check backwards through the diffs each time you saw a page was changed to be absolutely certain none had crept in.
Posted By: Duke

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/15/07 10:03 AM

Well I just changed it to show all diffs and not combine them.
Posted By: I Knowles

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/15/07 10:36 AM

I've asked the seller how much it would be to ship to the UK. Is there anyone who can dump these in the UK though? I also should have mentioned as its nearing the end of semester and i'm a student I won't be able to make any purchases with my own money until after easter in the last week of april. Until then I can only make purchases for others to be shipped outside of europe.
Posted By: I Knowles

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/15/07 10:37 AM

thanks for the change duke
Posted By: judge

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/15/07 03:19 PM

Originally Posted By ranger_lennier

It's good to have a European volunteer (and we could use more). I've actually been watching a French eBay auction for four Gamate games (Item #130086019392). I could buy it, but the seller wants to charge 15 EUR to ship to the U.S. Maybe shipping to the U.K. would be cheaper, though obviously France would be ideal. Let me know if you're interested.


Crap, that means the ebay alert I set for gamate games isn't working frown

I've also put the object on my watch list, I'm also in Europe.
Posted By: I Knowles

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/15/07 04:37 PM

hes asking 13 EUR to ship to the UK
Posted By: I Knowles

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/15/07 04:39 PM

anyone purchasing should probably put their ebay IDs on the dumping page to avoid bidding against each other. Unless you've all got the same ebay IDs as your forum name here and its just me that needs to add mine.
Posted By: judge

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/15/07 07:10 PM

he's asking 12 euro for shipping secured to the netherlands
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/15/07 10:24 PM

Is it just me or is he trying to rip us off on international shipping? I know I've paid a lot less for shipping from Europe, even reasonably fast shipping. But oh well, I guess it's not all that expensive. I've got a few Gamate games now--Cube-Up and Bomb Blaster, with Treasure Hunter and Kung-Fu Fighter on the way (still no system). But really I'm not the ideal person to collect these since they never came out in the U.S. I'm also not sure who could ultimately dump them.

I always snipe eBay auctions, so communication beforehand would probably be best to avoid bidding wars. I'd be inclined to go with judge on the Gamate, since he's expressed interest in the system, and is at least on the right continent. smile What do you think?
Posted By: judge

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/16/07 03:13 AM

Yeah, i'll be bidding on that auction.
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/16/07 01:04 PM

Originally Posted By judge
Yeah, i'll be bidding on that auction.


Cool. If you figure out how to dump them I can send the few games I have.
Posted By: judge

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/19/07 02:03 AM

Price went a bit too high on those gamate games.
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/19/07 08:29 AM

Originally Posted By judge
Price went a bit too high on those gamate games.


Well, from what I've seen that's a pretty typical price. I paid $18.50 and $14.95 (US) for the last two games I bought, so your auction was actually a bit cheaper per game. They don't come up very often, so I hate to see some passed by. Maybe in the future we can coordinate about funding.
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/21/07 08:14 AM

For some good news, I just got a package from Spain with two more Gamate games--Treasure Hunter and Kung-Fu Fighter. And the boxes have some great Chinglish. "The Chinese Boxing Tournament, which is held every ten years, has been a great event in this year. Among all the competitors, Beard Guy, Hook Hand, Corpse Face, Black Shadow, and Hot Leg are the top players. Victory or defeat, it depends on how you are going to beat them." I just wish I had a system to play these!
Posted By: MooglyGuy

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/21/07 08:49 AM

Psion Palmtops, anyone?

http://forums.nekochan.net/viewtopic.php?t=13549

Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/24/07 09:25 AM

Does anybody know if this is an original console or just a licenced or maybe unauthorized supervision.

http://ultimateconsoledatabase.com/portables/gamemaster.htm

I would like to think its another original obscure handheld pushed into early retirement by the gameboy but that cart looks familiar.
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/24/07 10:57 PM

It sounds original to me. You can find more information on Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hartung_Game_Master

I was going to say this would be a good thing to look for, but it seems there's already an emulator.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/5127/

I don't know details about the dumping status.
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/24/07 11:30 PM

I'm not sure I'd say there's "already an emulator" when it's closed source binary-only for MS-DOS with VGA. You have to have an emulator (DOSBox) to run that thing nowadays.
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/25/07 02:35 AM

Well, it indicates that something from the system has already been dumped, at least. But certainly MESS support would be a good thing.
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/27/07 05:19 AM

I just won this auction smile
Posted By: MooglyGuy

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/27/07 05:25 AM

Quote:
THIS RARE ACETRONIC RETRO SYSTEM IS IN COMPLETLY GENUINE CONDITION


I did not know that "genuine" was a condition that a console could be in, like "mint", "very good", or "poor".
Posted By: ht1848

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/27/07 08:48 AM

heh.

In other news...
I just recieved a MB Microvision with a few games.
Bowling
Star Trek Phaser Strike
Block Buster
Pinball
Connect Four

Anyone interested in working on this system? I thought I read ranger_lennier has a few games too. I'll update messwiki so we can see if we have a complete set (12?).
Posted By: I Knowles

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/27/07 06:20 PM

I have some at home, although I think it's those 5. I'll have a look when I'm back this weekend.
Posted By: Heretical_One

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/28/07 03:51 AM

If I may slightly hijack the topic...

As we know, MAME has a companion to the Dumping Project, namely the Decapping project. The question for the more knowledgable MESSDevs is this: for a very select number of console games, would a similar decapping project be effective (though possibly not worthwhile in most cases)?

I know that in theory, the SNES DSP-1, for example, is decappable. (There have been failed attempts by ametuers) You could read the original program ROM and emulate the chip, rather than the bit-perfect-except-for-one-operation simulation in use today. (Since the other DSP-X chips are the same, it would work for all of them).

It's debatable, given how accurate the simulations are, whether it is worth sacrificing the original chips and spending the money at this time.

I don't know enough about decapping to know whether it only works for reading ROMs, or whether, for example, it would be possible to fully emulate, say, the SPC7110 memory mapper and decompression chip. So I'm asking people who know, because as long as MAME has the connections, MESS should at least have enough of a discussion to spell out what decapping can and cannot help before someone makes claims that aren't true.

Experts only, please! smile
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/28/07 05:00 AM

I don't know that decapping would help the SPC7110. It's most successful at getting ROM contents out of a chip (a la the DSP-1). It's much less applicable to trying to figure out a chip (unless the 7110 is an MCU with an internal ROM, of course).
Posted By: Heretical_One

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/28/07 07:47 AM

Well, we know Epson fabbed the SPC7110 for Hudson, and it uses something like a range of 0x30 bytes as a register bank. The interesting parts are almost certainly not MCU-like (compression, some ungodly complex control registers for reading data from the data ROMs)

Like I said, I don't know what can and can't be done with decapping. smile


The only real mystery chips then are the OBC-1 and Cx4. The OBC-1 is mostly sprite setup, so I'd bet it was developed as an anti-piracy measure more than a necessary co-processor. No idea what that would indicate, anyway. The Cx4 is well-simulated already, but the fact that all commands are sent to a particular address sounds a lot like a CPU polling a particular address smile

It would be reasonable to expect that the entire DSP series and all three of Seta's custom coprocessors use an internal ROM. (The ST-010 and ST-011 are virtually identical, from part number to pin count to shape, while the ST-0018 is known to be a RISC processor, which would need to have some code to execute.) Of these, the ST-011 and ST-018 are most interesting, in that they're "damn hard" to simulate because they are used in Shougi games. The ST-010 was used in a racing game, which makes the operations fairly easy to decode and simulate, all things considered smile
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/28/07 08:17 AM

I have at least one copy of every released Microvision game. As for the three games that were released on both the TMS1100 and the Intel 8021, I don't know which version I have. I believe that judge is working on a TMS1100 CPU core and Lord Nightmare is working on how to dump the TMS1000, which would hopefully carry over to the TMS1100.

Originally Posted By ht1848
heh.

In other news...
I just recieved a MB Microvision with a few games.
Bowling
Star Trek Phaser Strike
Block Buster
Pinball
Connect Four

Anyone interested in working on this system? I thought I read ranger_lennier has a few games too. I'll update messwiki so we can see if we have a complete set (12?).
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/28/07 08:21 AM

Decapping is most useful for chips with internal ROM that is visually distinguishable, such as maskROM (but not EEPROM). The drawbacks are of course that the chip is damaged in the process and it's expensive, I believe Guru said about $330 US. You would need to know some details about a particular chip to know if it would be helpful. Actually, Microvision games are an example of something that could be decapped, though hopefully there's a better way.

Originally Posted By Heretical_One
If I may slightly hijack the topic...

As we know, MAME has a companion to the Dumping Project, namely the Decapping project. The question for the more knowledgable MESSDevs is this: for a very select number of console games, would a similar decapping project be effective (though possibly not worthwhile in most cases)?

I know that in theory, the SNES DSP-1, for example, is decappable. (There have been failed attempts by ametuers) You could read the original program ROM and emulate the chip, rather than the bit-perfect-except-for-one-operation simulation in use today. (Since the other DSP-X chips are the same, it would work for all of them).

It's debatable, given how accurate the simulations are, whether it is worth sacrificing the original chips and spending the money at this time.

I don't know enough about decapping to know whether it only works for reading ROMs, or whether, for example, it would be possible to fully emulate, say, the SPC7110 memory mapper and decompression chip. So I'm asking people who know, because as long as MAME has the connections, MESS should at least have enough of a discussion to spell out what decapping can and cannot help before someone makes claims that aren't true.

Experts only, please! smile
Posted By: Lord Nightmare

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/29/07 12:47 AM

Heretical_one: I added all the dsp-x chips, plus the s-dsp (which is also an mcu), the Cx4 (definitely an MCU, it even can checksum its own rom using a command), and the playstation APU to the mess decapping list. The spc7110 MIGHT be an mcu but I sort of doubt it. It certainly COULD be, but I don't think it'd run fast enough unless it ran at 14mhz... OBC1 is also possibly an MCU.

Lord Nightmare

P.s. ksmr, LJdmcnqz. any new stories?
Posted By: Heretical_One

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/29/07 02:20 AM

I kind of doubt the SPC7110 is anything but an ASIC, honestly. I just don't see a way to break the interesting part, and had to ask about the limits of decapping. I suspect the data decompression falls outside those limits, and that's the single most important facet of the chip. There's plenty of oddities to it (why are the ROM addresses in the decompression table all big-endian? Aren't there a lot of registers for one?), there's probably no point to decapping the chip with what we can currently glean from images.

There are some new ones, but I'm in another slow revision cycle, teaching myself to improve the descriptive level of the writing a bit. I don't even recall when you last were up-to-date to begin with...
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/29/07 03:23 AM

Why the PlayStation APU? It's clearly not an MCU.
Posted By: Lord Nightmare

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/29/07 10:32 AM

because its predecessor, the snes s-dsp, clearly IS an mcu, based on recent experiments by blargg and byuu.
Therefore I'm working on the assumption that the playstation APU chip is too. Also, the playstation APU allows you to upload short bits of dsp code to do reverb effects and stuff. I believe the dsp mcu runs this code in a sort of sandbox of some sort. You can ask Neill Corlett/ilparatz0 for more information, but when I contacted him about this he didn't respond. frown

Lord Nightmare
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/29/07 11:41 AM

Corlett's unlikely to talk to anyone who's anywhere in the vicinity of MAME/MESS. Such is life.
Posted By: MooglyGuy

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/29/07 09:25 PM

Originally Posted By R. Belmont
Corlett's unlikely to talk to anyone who's anywhere in the vicinity of MAME/MESS. Such is life.


It's for the better, I suppose. Ghastly hacks, ghastly hacks.
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/31/07 02:56 AM

Just won this auction smile

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=016&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&viewitem=&item=260099339208&rd=1&rd=1
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/31/07 03:12 AM

Hahaha, that's awesome smile I remember the commercials for that thing.
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/01/07 04:52 AM

another auction won, http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=002&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&viewitem=&item=120101646787&rd=1&rd=1

UK version of the Channel F
Posted By: ht1848

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/21/07 01:52 AM

I was scanning ebay for some broken consoles for dumping and found this auction:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Sony-PlayStation-P...1QQcmdZViewItem

For those who don't want to click:

Quote:
The PSP cover is in mint condition and there is no scratches or marks on it at all.

(Please note this PSP is broken)

Happy Bidding!


AAAAAAA++++ for honesty...lol
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/26/07 03:42 PM

Just received another obscure game system that uses vhs tapes, the Bandai Video Challenger. Cant find much info on this, came with 2 vhs tapes Sky Wars and Space Challenge. The latter came bundled with the console.
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/26/07 08:10 PM

Originally Posted By incog
Just received another obscure game system that uses vhs tapes, the Bandai Video Challenger. Cant find much info on this, came with 2 vhs tapes Sky Wars and Space Challenge. The latter came bundled with the console.


Neat! It must be a version of the Bandai Telebiko. I figured that was only released in Japan.
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/27/07 02:03 AM

Yeah it looks like a european Telebiko, on another note I've been looking for other vhs based consoles and found this very obscure gem http://cgi.ebay.com/View-Master-Interact...2QQcmdZViewItem

Only ships in America though frown
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/27/07 07:23 AM

Originally Posted By incog
Yeah it looks like a european Telebiko, on another note I've been looking for other vhs based consoles and found this very obscure gem http://cgi.ebay.com/View-Master-Interact...2QQcmdZViewItem

Only ships in America though frown


No worry, I've set up a snipe for it. It should go nicely with my Action Max. :-) I've also been thinking about picking up some Captain Power toys and videos. The toys had an infrared sensor so you could shoot at the screen. I don't think emulation would be quite the same, but perhaps something could be done.
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/28/07 01:59 AM

Originally Posted By ranger_lennier
It should go nicely with my Action Max.


Have you tried to open yours up yet? When I cracked mine open to have a peek at its guts I noticed the knobs on the front panel hold the pcb in place, and most of the insides are held together with fragile wires and tape. I couldnt get a good enough look at what (if any) cpu it uses. I was also told that all the action max systems were ntsc too, but mine and the tape it came with are pal and a line in the manual is blacked out with marker pen... who knows maybe what I have is a pal prototype or they just cut corners making this thing.

Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/28/07 02:19 AM

I only just noticed this but the sticker on the Sonic Fury tape even has the FBI warning and the fine for copying it is in dollars.

Pretty odd for a pal console
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 05/06/07 06:29 AM

I guess sniping was unnecessary, as I won the View Master Interactive Vision for $0.99.

As for the Action Max, I've never opened it up. I did notice that it said NTSC on the bottom. Does your's say PAL?
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 05/06/07 07:20 AM

Yup, well... on a sticker
Posted By: I Knowles

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 05/07/07 07:59 AM

I spoke to Fredric Bl?•holtz awhile ago and to his knowledge there is no difference between the different regional releases of the channel f, apart from the Luxor bios which I submitted. While he hasn't seen any grandstand units all the SABA, ITT, units he's come across use the standard bios. Should I delete the Luxor, SABA, and ITT from the wanted list? Or add a note? Conversation with Fredric is here: http://www.freelists.org/archives/channelf/05-2006/msg00000.html
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 05/07/07 08:08 AM

Given his confirmation, I'd remove them yeah.
Posted By: etabeta78

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 05/07/07 03:19 PM

maybe it would be good to mention this in the source too!
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 05/07/07 08:21 PM

I have a Grandstand channel-f, still havent opened it up
Posted By: I Knowles

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 05/09/07 04:22 AM

its probably using the standard bios would it take you long to open it up and have a look at the chip numbers?. the only difference between the standard bios and the luxor is a bit or two allowing horizontal movement in the pack-in pong game, don't know if i've mentioned that before or not. is sysinfo.dat still being used or should I write this up on the wiki?
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 05/09/07 04:58 AM

It was a bit of a fight to get the case off heh

Posted By: Duke

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 05/09/07 05:00 AM

Originally Posted By Ian Knowles
its probably using the standard bios would it take you long to open it up and have a look at the chip numbers?. the only difference between the standard bios and the luxor is a bit or two allowing horizontal movement in the pack-in pong game, don't know if i've mentioned that before or not. is sysinfo.dat still being used or should I write this up on the wiki?


Please use the wiki, new sysinfo.dats will probably be generated from it.
Posted By: etabeta78

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 05/09/07 05:05 AM

this is a bad news... i'm working on a good update of it to submit to ht1848... oh well, infos can always be copied and pasted to wiki and then sysinfo can be generated from the wiki :P
Posted By: Duke

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 05/09/07 05:17 AM

Probably easier if you just update the wiki yourself smile
Posted By: I Knowles

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 05/09/07 05:31 AM

well thats proved me wrong the standard chips are SL31253 and SL31254, the Luxor replaced SL31253 with SL90025. You've got SL31291 and something else? I've ordered a cheapy (£55 in p&p) ROM programmer recently it should be here in a couple of weeks (from hong kong) so I could attempt to dump it. I havn't dumped anything before but from what I understand it's just a matter of desoldering those 40-pin DIP packages plugging them in the programmer and running the software.

EDIT - There may have been something about checking the pin assignments of the packages, I'll experiment on my master system before I touch anything rarer. willing to let me try incog?
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 05/09/07 08:35 AM

Sure smile

edit: I also have some ngage and a tapwave zodiac game, the are all on SD card and I have an SD card reader, are there any special steps I have to go through to get complete dumps from these or is it just a matter of copy and pasting? I like to dump games/consoles that were commerical failures before they get rare.
Posted By: I Knowles

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 05/09/07 07:28 PM

Cool, I'll let you know when my programmers arrived and i've had at my master system.

If the SD card has a secure area its probably a similar process to dumping NDS? Don't know whos clued up on that. Didn't really find anything on google although i'm too tired right now to thoroughly search things.
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 05/09/07 09:49 PM

I've seen Zodiac dumps floating around in the wild, so I assume there's nothing special about it.
Posted By: I Knowles

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 05/12/07 07:30 PM

anyone know much about the coleco telstar arcade? according to wikipedia its cartridges have small programs stored in ROM but also custom logic circuits http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coleco_Telstar . Is this something that could eventually be included if dumped?

Are pages like http://redump.emubase.de/dev/mess:drivers:channelf:channelf on the wiki generated from the source? It looks like it. If I want to put up some useful links for channel f and a brief history where do I put it?
Posted By: etabeta78

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 05/12/07 07:54 PM

I think it should be still added to the sysinfo.dat, since the process of generating sysinfo from wiki (and-or viceversa is still in the process)

so probably, sending those to hobie is still the easier option (and check your pm, i added bits of info already so we can join our strenghts )...

since we are talking about channelf, i found a bug/wrong info on the way buttons are labelled!

from the source:

Code:
	PORT_BIT ( 0x01, IP_ACTIVE_HIGH, IPT_START )	/* START (1) */
	PORT_BIT ( 0x02, IP_ACTIVE_HIGH, IPT_BUTTON5 )	/* HOLD  (2) */
	PORT_BIT ( 0x04, IP_ACTIVE_HIGH, IPT_BUTTON6 )	/* MODE  (3) */
	PORT_BIT ( 0x08, IP_ACTIVE_HIGH, IPT_BUTTON7 )	/* TIME  (4) */


the correct one should be

Code:
	PORT_BIT ( 0x01, IP_ACTIVE_HIGH, IPT_START )	/* TIME  (1) */
	PORT_BIT ( 0x02, IP_ACTIVE_HIGH, IPT_BUTTON5 )	/* MODE  (2) */
	PORT_BIT ( 0x04, IP_ACTIVE_HIGH, IPT_BUTTON6 )	/* HOLD  (3) */
	PORT_BIT ( 0x08, IP_ACTIVE_HIGH, IPT_BUTTON7 )	/* START (4) */


Notice the reversed order of the names of the inputs. you can verify this with any channelf picture (it is clearly show that 1 is TIME and not START, etc.) or checking that to start a game you have to press IPT_BUTTON7 (C key by default) wink

on the other hand the number are correctly assigned since you select the game 1=TENNIS with IPT_START

i'm not sure if the input should be changed accordingly to have start back on IPT_START, but I think we can continue to use these inputs, simply saying what is mapped to what smile

anyway, channelf inputs are a big headache to setup. e.g. the joypad had a bunch of unusual movements PUSH DOWN, PULL UP, MOVE CLOCKWISE, MOVE COUNTERCLOCKWISE which are mapped to the first 4 IPT_BUTTONs... not a bad choice, but you start to have a lot of inputs...
Posted By: Duke

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 05/12/07 10:20 PM

Yes, those driver pages are generated. Please put any additional info you have into the sysinfo pages, for channelf that would be http://redump.emubase.de/dev/sysinfo:channelf
Posted By: I Knowles

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 05/13/07 01:27 AM

well I found a telstar arcade cartridge on ebay http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200108952915 , i'm going to pick it up out of curiosity.
Posted By: etabeta78

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 05/13/07 06:49 AM

another interesting system seems to be the comquest, a kid computer.

there is a testdriver for it in MESS, but the cpu is unknown (a note in the driver actually states that emulation should be fairly easy if we find out which cpu uses). I've seen many of those sold for few bucks on US ebay [1], but I live in Europe so it's not convenient for me to bid on it.

[1] e.g. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170098795159
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 05/13/07 07:00 AM

How do we have a driver without knowing the CPU?

ETA: Ok, I see there's a ROM dump, just no idea what the ROM does :-)
Posted By: I Knowles

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 05/14/07 12:18 AM

I found a few history items for sysinfo, but no sepcifications.

Team concepts wins the Consumer Product Design Award in the Hong Kong Awards for Industry 1993, for their comquest PC
http://www.hkindustryaward.org/winners/1993winners_content.html

US release of comquest plus in march 1996 at $149.99, 'PC link accessory' $39.99
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb4360/is_199603/ai_n15246424

Same prices different source dec 1996
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1365/is_n5_v27/ai_18918647/pg_3

Posted By: I Knowles

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 05/14/07 12:24 AM

Comquest smartstation, not sure but possibly the next model after the plus?

http://cgi.ebay.com/KID-COMQUEST-SMART-S...1QQcmdZViewItem

an original comquest

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Computers/Vintage/photos/a-99683568/p-40880908.htm
Posted By: ht1848

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 05/15/07 07:41 AM

Lord_Nightmare - This Seller has a few speak and spell modules that are on the wanted list. Out of my price/value range, but just wanted to post just in case you were a speak and spell fanatic and/or rich...Zero feedback though so maybe price drop if they don't sell or a combo opportunity.
Posted By: I Knowles

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 05/19/07 01:18 AM

theres a sharp MZ-80A for 99p here http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Sharp-MZ-80A-Compu...1QQcmdZViewItem
if anyones near enough to yorkshire to pick it up...incog or anyone else?
Posted By: MooglyGuy

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 05/19/07 06:05 AM

Originally Posted By R. Belmont
How do we have a driver without knowing the CPU?

ETA: Ok, I see there's a ROM dump, just no idea what the ROM does :-)


How old is the system? I should be able to figure it out in fairly short order just by looking at the ROM.
Posted By: etabeta78

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 05/19/07 02:59 PM

beginning of the 90s... in the driver (src/mess/drivers/comquest.c) there are comments about which CPU it cannot be and why (iirc)
Posted By: I Knowles

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 05/20/07 02:19 AM

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/EPOCH-CASETTE-VISI...1QQcmdZViewItem

A cassette vision junior for $144 inc worldwide shipping. Its japan only and fairly rare. I can just about stretch myself to buying it unless someone else wants to pick it up or thinks the price is unreasonable?
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 05/20/07 04:08 AM

Originally Posted By Ian Knowles
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/EPOCH-CASETTE-VISI...1QQcmdZViewItem

A cassette vision junior for $144 inc worldwide shipping. Its japan only and fairly rare. I can just about stretch myself to buying it unless someone else wants to pick it up or thinks the price is unreasonable?


This is needed and it doesn't strike me as an unreasonable price, though I've never actually seen one for sale before. If you're interested, I'd say go for it.
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 05/20/07 05:05 AM

I updated the Wiki with a list of my undumped systems and games. Wow, I've sure collected a bunch of obscure stuff! Anything sound interesting? I've noted if I've already sent something to Guru.

http://redump.emubase.de/dev/dumping:info#in_ranger_lenniers_s_possession

I could also add some updates to the wanted list, but that will have to wait for another day.

Posted By: I Knowles

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 05/20/07 05:37 AM

Nice collection. I just bought the same telstar arcade cartridge, oops. Would be great if we could get a hold of the other 3?. Theyre over 30 years old and really need some attention.
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 05/20/07 05:41 AM

Originally Posted By Ian Knowles
Nice collection. I just bought the same telstar arcade cartridge, oops. Would be great if we could get a hold of the other 3?. Theyre over 30 years old and really need some attention.


The first cart's pretty common, it seems. The other three show up on eBay every now and then, but I've been waiting for a nice collection with a working system. I have one that shows some graphics, but isn't actually playable.
Posted By: Heihachi_73

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 05/20/07 05:47 PM

One of my first machines, apart from the Atari 2600 Jr, was a miniature Galaxian arcade machine by Coleco or Midway. I don't think this would make it in MESS though since it had a VFD screen.

The only thing I remember about it, is it was a 2 player game and there was also a switch on it which would turn it into a Space Invaders game. IIRC it used C size batteries. Unfortunately it got run over by a car (don't ask how!) and the screen was destroyed!
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 05/21/07 01:05 AM

Originally Posted By Heihachi_73
One of my first machines, apart from the Atari 2600 Jr, was a miniature Galaxian arcade machine by Coleco or Midway. I don't think this would make it in MESS though since it had a VFD screen.


I don't see any reason MESS couldn't do this. MESS/MAME handles all sorts of displays--lamps, LED's, dot matrix, etc. I think the real problem with dedicated systems like this is that there's so many of them, and most of them aren't that good, so I don't know if people will want to put a lot of time into them.
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 05/21/07 01:13 AM

We had the Pacman Coleco VFD mini-machine when I was a kid. It had a problem where the voltage regulator (a stock 7805 I think) didn't have a heatsink so over time it would actually unsolder itself. (This is more amusing now than it was then, given that the Xbox360 "Red Ring of Death" is caused by the CPU unsoldering itself via a similar mechanism).
Posted By: I Knowles

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 05/21/07 02:36 AM

I bought the cassettevision jr. I've also picked up a few vtech consoles/laptops from the list. I'll put a list on the wiki once a few more auctions finish and I check some things at home.
Posted By: exdeath

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 05/21/07 04:09 AM

Originally Posted By ranger_lennier


I don't see any reason MESS couldn't do this. MESS/MAME handles all sorts of displays--lamps, LED's, dot matrix, etc. I think the real problem with dedicated systems like this is that there's so many of them, and most of them aren't that good, so I don't know if people will want to put a lot of time into them.



I think that we will need another emulator, MEHGE: Multiple Electronic Handheld Games Emulator (or, a name that start with M and hass 4 letters).
Posted By: Jonathan Wilson

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 05/21/07 10:01 PM

Did these VFD machines have a CPU?
Posted By: I Knowles

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 05/23/07 12:36 AM

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300103085103&ssPageName=ADME:B:WNA:UK:76

a rowtron and 12 games. I can't afford it, if anyone else wants it its £100.
Posted By: Heihachi_73

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 05/23/07 11:12 PM

Confirmed my old Galaxian was branded Coleco and not Midway which I was originally looking for on the net:

http://www.videogamecritic.net/cp.htm

In other news, I just spotted one on eBay. Others here

I had no idea these things survived to this day!
Posted By: ht1848

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 05/29/07 12:01 AM

Is anyone setup to dump PlayStation bios? I found a missing one from 1997. I need to track down some cables to see if the unit actually works.

pm me if you are able
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/04/07 11:26 PM

BTW, one thing I've noticed - Mac desktop ROMs are relatively easy to find, but nobody's dumped the Portable or the PowerBooks. (In particular the Portable and PB100 are 68000-based and very similar to the SE except with different ADB). Out of those 2 we only need 1 dump - they use the same ROM but have a region of I/O space that reads back a magic model ID to differentiate the 2 :-)
Posted By: Lord Nightmare

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/05/07 12:50 PM

I have a powerbook 170 here, I'd completely forgotten about it. I should add it to my 'owned hardware list'
Problem is that its dead as a doornail. Totally toast.
Person I got it from used the wrong power wart on it and deep fried the power supply parts inside. Probably needs quite a bit of rework before it will work again.

I have no clue where the roms are hiding inside it though, and they're almost certainly surface mount.

LN
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/05/07 01:24 PM

I dunno - Apple used socketed DIPs at least as far as the PowerMacs, so there's a good chance they're that way in a 170.
Posted By: I Knowles

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/09/07 03:35 AM

I took apart my colecovision expansion module 1 to find nothing dumpable. I probably should have realised that as the Atari 2600 has no bios it was unlikely this would contain one. Anyway for anyone interested it uses the same 6507 processor and 6532 RIOT chip as the 2600. U3 I couldn't find any info on but I guess its converting things before passing them on to the coleco?

Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/09/07 03:40 AM

More likely it's just halting the CV's processor and overriding it's audio and video with it's own - that's more or less how the Inty System Changer worked.
Posted By: I Knowles

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/09/07 04:26 AM

That'd make a lot more sense. U3 is just audio/video output then like the atari's TIA chip? Making it an almost standalone 2600 clone, I was going to look into it a little more but I guess its not particularly worth it. Effectively in emulation it'd just be an atari 2600 running on the coleco driver with the coleco idling in the background? Sorry if these questions are stupid but i've only just finished the second year of my electronics degree so I'm pretty clueless about hardware still.
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/09/07 04:46 AM

U3 is almost certainly a TIA clone, yup.
Posted By: ht1848

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/02/07 04:09 AM

VideoBrain on ebay.

I tossed in an early bid, but I think it will be out of my price range by the sniping time. Anyone else? Apparently it uses same chip as channelf which would be interesting to see against the MESS implementation.
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/03/07 12:40 AM

Interesting. I could probably bid more than the current $76, but I'm not sure just how much these go for. Has anything been dumped from it? I found an old discussion about dumping it here.
Posted By: Heihachi_73

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/03/07 05:07 AM

I noticed the PlayStation part in MESS, that the SCPH7500 BIOS is listed as a nodump.

I have an SCPH7500 machine sitting here doing nothing right now; it works perfectly but is currently missing a CD-ROM drive and power supply (repaired a wrecked SCPH5502 with it). The 5502's old power supply in it makes a buzzing noise from the large transformer.

The strange thing is, it has what looks like Korean (Hangal) on the base of it rather than Japanese. I'm not Asian so I have no idea!

I've always wanted to know this though. When I run it through the TV, the BIOS screen is yellow instead of blue. Is this just the difference between an NTSC-J signal or something else? It also does this through a video capture card, even when set to NTSC-J.

Luckily, I have one solitary Japanese game to test it on - Tekken 1 (disc swap also works with this, so I can also swap over to my PAL games!). Everything on screen is still yellow though.

Edit: I don't have anything to dump it with (Caetla??), but if I could send it to someone around Melbourne that would be OK.
Posted By: Firewave

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/03/07 11:49 AM

Originally Posted By Heihachi_73
I noticed the PlayStation part in MESS, that the SCPH7500 BIOS is listed as a nodump.

I have an SCPH7500 machine sitting here doing nothing right now; it works perfectly but is currently missing a CD-ROM drive and power supply (repaired a wrecked SCPH5502 with it). The 5502's old power supply in it makes a buzzing noise from the large transformer.

The strange thing is, it has what looks like Korean (Hangal) on the base of it rather than Japanese. I'm not Asian so I have no idea!

I've always wanted to know this though. When I run it through the TV, the BIOS screen is yellow instead of blue. Is this just the difference between an NTSC-J signal or something else? It also does this through a video capture card, even when set to NTSC-J.

Luckily, I have one solitary Japanese game to test it on - Tekken 1 (disc swap also works with this, so I can also swap over to my PAL games!). Everything on screen is still yellow though.

Edit: I don't have anything to dump it with (Caetla??), but if I could send it to someone around Melbourne that would be OK.


You shouldn't care about the PSX nodumps. smf has a lot of dumps in his personal tree, that aren't even listed yet, but he hasn't submitted it by now.
Posted By: ht1848

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/03/07 02:26 PM

Originally Posted By ranger_lennier
Interesting. I could probably bid more than the current $76, but I'm not sure just how much these go for. Has anything been dumped from it? I found an old discussion about dumping it here.


I have not seen many (if any) on ebay. Not really sure what it might go for. If you are interested I'll pitch in $50 if you win.
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/04/07 03:13 PM

Originally Posted By ht1848

I have not seen many (if any) on ebay. Not really sure what it might go for. If you are interested I'll pitch in $50 if you win.


Thanks for the help! I've set up a snipe for it, so we'll see how it goes.
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/22/07 02:56 AM

Time to resurrect the never-ending Dumping Project thread. smile Anyway, I won the VideoBrain auction, and it's now arrived safely. Big thanks to ht1848 and Lord Nightmare for pitching in!

I have to say, the machine looks fantastic, especially considering it's almost 30 years old. It started up with no problems too. I've tried out some built-in programs, and they're pretty simple, though I'm happy to report the clock is Y2K compliant, even if it lacks a battery-backed memory. I've tried two carts that worked fine. Gladiator is kind of like Combat but with different variations--an ancient gladiator fight, a football scrimmage, and a space battle. I don't like how loose the joystick is--I guess this is how it was originally. There's also an educational word-building game. I still need to try three more cartridges. The only issue I've noticed so far is that the "Master Control" button doesn't reset a program like the instructions indicate. Either it's broken of I'm doing something wrong.

I need to update the Wiki with this and a few other things I've picked up. I've still got some things on loan to Guru that will hopefully be dumped sometime (some of the hardware is rather obscure), but there doesn't seem to have been much activity lately with actually dumping things. Is there anyone who can work on the VideoBrain or anything else listed? I believe Frank Palazzolo asked about the VideoBrain some time ago. Do you still follow these boards, Frank?
Posted By: smf

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/23/07 10:27 PM

Originally Posted By Firewave

You shouldn't care about the PSX nodumps. smf has a lot of dumps in his personal tree, that aren't even listed yet, but he hasn't submitted it by now.


There have been some changes submitted.

Anyone who has a playstation ( there must be a few ) should at least try to identify the bios & then dump it if it's not listed in mess now.

If you can boot cdr's then it's easy, I wrote a program last year which can display the version details, crc & then zip the rom and transfer it to a set of memory cards ( then you need a way of transferring the memory cards over to your pc ). It's the only way to transfer the bios from scph-900x/scph-10x anyway.

I need to dig it out, tidy it up a bit & then I'll release it.

If you have a bios version that is dumped, but mess doesn't list that model in the description of that version then you should let me know too.

smf
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/25/07 08:16 PM

I've updated the Wiki with my recent acquisitions. In addition to the VideoBrain previously discussed, there are several new R-Zone games, some new Gamate cards, a Game Master and games, a Team Concepts laptop I forgot to list earlier (there was a question about what process it used, and this might well be a different version than what's now dumped), an interactive Captain Power music video tape, and a surprisingly decent pirate Game Boy Color fighter.

http://mess.toseciso.org/dumping:info#in_ranger_lenniers_s_possession

I've got a rather large collection of games, most of which suck. Any dumping volunteers?
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/28/07 06:17 PM

heh, its like some unwritten law of the universe that all the rarer games always suck, great collection ranger_lennier. I'm also finding it difficult to locate somebody who can dump my stuff... especially the vhs tapes, I mean ripping those losslessly is going to be a ballache

keep up the great work laugh
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/28/07 08:41 PM

One thing for the wiki: NEC PC-FX is dumped and working in Mednafen.
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/28/07 09:55 PM

updated and noted
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/29/07 12:14 AM

Especially the R-Zone. I seriously nominate this as the worst videogame system ever made. The display (at least for the head-strap version) is an almost unusable gimmick, and the gameplay is straight out of 1980's LCD handhelds, even though it's from 1995.

I've wondered what to do about the VHS tapes as well. I could record them to a video card easily enough, but there must be a higher quality solution. Maybe whoever Aaron's got working on laserdics could do something with them.

Originally Posted By incog
heh, its like some unwritten law of the universe that all the rarer games always suck, great collection ranger_lennier. I'm also finding it difficult to locate somebody who can dump my stuff... especially the vhs tapes, I mean ripping those losslessly is going to be a ballache

keep up the great work laugh
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/30/07 05:02 PM

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Sega-SC-3000-SC300...VQQcmdZViewItem

This is the Sega SC-3000H, Originally sold for ¥33,800, was an upgraded version of the SC-3000 (already in MESS) with more RAM and an upgraded keyboard (the original keyboard was of the low-end membrane type).
Posted By: Heretical_One

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/30/07 11:02 PM

Is there any real tech documentation on the PC-FX?

Then again, I should probably "not ask", given the pace of my efforts...
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/30/07 11:42 PM

Mednafen got, and I have, all the official programmer manuals and SDK. However, they're in Japanese and intended for a really old (Windows 3.1 16-bit!) version of Windows Write or somesuch. I got them to open in a recent version of Word with some fighting, but I don't read Japanese =)
Posted By: Heretical_One

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/31/07 08:20 AM

great news. Japanese isn't "really" a problem for me, but willpower is, so I'm glad a more capable dev has the materials needed smile
Posted By: Phil Bennett

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/31/07 01:18 PM

I'd like to get my hands on a set of disks/images for the Fairlight CMI IIx. There's ROMs and schematics floating around at least.
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/04/07 09:19 PM

embarrassingly won these auctions:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=290154099421&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT&ih=019

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=170144855515&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT&ih=007

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=120155529646&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT&ih=002

I also updated the wiki and added PCB scans of everything i can currently crack open (waiting on secure torx and tri-wing bits). Please post if you can dump any of these laugh

http://mess.toseciso.org/dumping:info#in_incog_s_possession
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/04/07 09:35 PM

A quick run down your list:

On the VTech Precomputer, the "LH532" with the Vtech copyrights is a standard mask ROM, but it's soldered in which makes it a bit trickier.

Acetronic MPU1000: I don't think there's any ROM on that main PCB unless it's inside the i8039 CPU. More likely the ROMs are on the carts for that though.

Action Max: the HD401010 is the CPU, but since it also has WOW copyrights I'd strongly suspect an internal ROM that would need decapping. Probably not worth it.

APF Mathmagician: TMS1100, same as the APF M-1000 carts.

BBC Bridge: the main PCB and the carts both appear to have socketed normal EPROMs so pretty much anyone with a reader could dump them.

Bible Search: epoxy blob, pretty much hopeless.

N-Joypad: appears to have SMT Flash ROMs, Guru could handle those if those are the ROMs and not the 2 epoxy blobs.

Sudoku: epoxy blob, as above.

Sega Lock-On: I couldn't see any intelligence on either PCB. Probably just dumb discrete logic.
Posted By: Lord Nightmare

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/05/07 12:38 AM

N-pad epoxy blobs are either a clone ppu and cpu, or a nes-on-a-chip and a mapper chip (more likely). The two smt flash chips are just that, flash chips.

i8039 is a romless version of the I8049 (But if you decap it chances are it has an unused rom on die and I8049 markings. why? The i8039 was basically an i8049 with the EA pin permanently enabled and not connected to a pin, to permanently force it into external rom mode. Intel would make dozens of i8049s every day with all sorts of odd mask roms on them, and when one would fail QC (have an incorrect bit in the mask rom or a problem with the mask rom address decoder but otherwise work) then they'd permanently connect EA, call it an i8039, and sell it as that, to cut losses.)

LN

P.S. Assuming you have a microscope, you can decap epoxy blobs with a blowtorch. They certainly won't work after that though.

P.P.S. We still need to find someone who can wrap their head around the schematic and figure out the tms1xxx rom test mode based on the speak&spell patent US 4,209,844, since it has a full logic schematic of the tms1003 or whatnot.
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/05/07 06:03 AM

Originally Posted By R. Belmont

APF Mathmagician: TMS1100, same as the APF M-1000 carts.


APF M-1000 carts use a Motorola ROM chip. Maybe you're thinking of the Microvision.
Posted By: Phil Bennett

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/05/07 01:27 PM

I'm UK-based (Herts area) and can assist with dumping. I should be able to handle any DIP/PLCC devices from this list:

http://ftp.dataio.com/device_lists/unisite.txt
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/06/07 01:45 AM

Thanks Phil laugh

also, 2 more scans added

Bandai Video Challenger and Pokeball LCD Game
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/06/07 02:05 AM

COP420 CPU, no visible ROMs and epoxy blob, respectively.
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/06/07 02:25 PM

My secure torx bits came today and I finally cracked open the Pippin. I broke the drive tray doing it though cry

Here are the scans:

Rom Board
PCB
PCB back
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/06/07 02:29 PM

ROM board is SMT mask ROMs, that'd have to go to Guru. I don't see any ROMs on the main board, which is in keeping with how Macs were designed at that time.
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/06/07 02:39 PM

Thanks RB smile

I've just dug out a static proof bag and I'll send the rom board off to the guru.

also added these

Pippin memory card
Game & Watch Mario Bros. PCB
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/10/07 12:53 PM

http://cgi.ebay.com/Sega-Teradrive-PC-PC...oQQcmdZViewItem

Help needed, I can put £100 towards this.

edit:

just got the casio loopy cart today, here is a scan.
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/21/07 02:54 PM

Just received a Bandai Playdia and 2 CD's for it.

This has to be one of the worst consoles of all time, I hooked it up and started i up... no boot screen just an empty shade of blue, not deterred I put one of the games that came with it in and it started. Its not so much of a console really, more of an interactive VCD player. I also tried out a normal audio CD, played fine but just a blue screen.

I'll dump the CD's to CHD in a moment.
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/21/07 03:05 PM

LOL. Can't wait to see a PCB scan.
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/21/07 03:41 PM

Thats harder than it sounds, I've already lost my best security bit to it (it has odd tamper proof screw holes that are tapered off at the bottom meaning all screw bits become lodged and stuck) and it took a chunk of out my thumb.

Im probably just gonna have to drill the screws out, im not bothered about ruining the case not after it bit my thumb :|
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/22/07 02:03 AM

I won an auction for a Telstar Arcade with all four carts. Is this MESS-able? It's basically a Pong system, but the carts have an MPS-7600 chip, which is a custom microcontroller with 512-word internal ROM. Pong Story has a page on it including a picture of the inside of the cart. This page has the most information I found on the chip:

"Thanks to several articles forwarded to me by Lee Rayner, the architecture of the TV Game systems is finally revealed. The actual core is the MOS Technologies "MPS" 7600 (or 7601), yet another iteration of the ubiquitous 'Pong-on-a-chip' primitive game CPUs that emerged in the late 1970s in competition with General Instruments, National Semiconductors and even Commodore's old arch enemy Texas Instruments; the 7600/1 was the last of MOS's Pong-chip line, which started with the 5601. However, innovation was what set the 7600 and 7601 apart: unlike most other Pong devices that had the game hard-coded into the system's logic, the 7600/1s were actually true if crude microprocessors that read game instructions from a special 512-word (mask?) ROM which appears to be internal to the chip.

"The catch, however, is that graphics and sound are also generated directly by the 7600/1 and are hardwired into the chip logic, meaning that special variants had to be created if a special display was required for an arbitrary application. Thus, the 7601-001 in the TV Game series, while being programmable in a crude sense, is hardwired to generate the graphics for the TV Game series' internal games only and cannot be coerced into drawing other kinds of shapes. This distinction is important because the MOS 7600/1's application was not just in the TV Game series but also in the Coleco Telstar Arcade, released in the United States in 1977, where it lurked in its plug-in cartridges and was Coleco's attempt to distinguish itself from the me-too Pong craze. Coleco's Telstar is an unusual triangular console with a light gun, driving controller, and knob panels on each of the three legs of the triangle. The Telstar's multi-game cartridges also have the same triangular form factor and drop in the top of the unit; one came with the machine, and three others were eventually released. Inside each Telstar cartridge is an NTSC MOS 7600, each localized for its particular graphics requirements. Variant -002, for example, is in Telstar Arcade cartridge #1 and plays "road race, tennis and quick draw" while cartridge #2 contains "hockey, tennis, handball and target [practise]," and because this sounds suspiciously like the games in the TV Game, this probably contains the same TVG variant -001. Cartridge #3 contains "bonus pinball, shooting gallery, shoot the bear and deluxe pinball" and cartridge #4 contains "naval battle, speed ball and blast away." It is unclear which 7600 variant is in these other two cartridges, although there appear to be only four 7600 variants known. The internals of cartridge #1 on David Winter's site above show a 7600-002 with a fabrication date of 25th week 1977; this coincides well with an expected release of the TV Game systems somewhere around 1976, assuming that Commodore released the first commercial application of these chips (seems logical as the MOS acquisition had been consummated completely by this time). "
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/22/07 02:07 AM

I don't think there's any way to dump the ROMs on those.
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/22/07 02:36 AM

Originally Posted By R. Belmont
I don't think there's any way to dump the ROMs on those.


Well, assuming the second page's suggestion that they use maskROM is correct, there's decapping if nothing else.
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/22/07 05:30 AM

True. Then the problem is that they're an unknown custom CPU :-) (Well, that and paying US$300+ to play a Pong game).
Posted By: Mevi

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/22/07 10:08 AM

That reminds me...
I was given a Amstrad MegaPC some years ago, is there anything useful for dumping inside ? The PC-side works, not idea about the Megadrive card, I didn't bother to find a cartridge for testing...

http://www.uk.playright.dk/raretitel.php?id=13883
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/22/07 09:31 PM

Originally Posted By R. Belmont
True. Then the problem is that they're an unknown custom CPU :-) (Well, that and paying US$300+ to play a Pong game).


Unknown custom CPU? Where's your sense of adventure? smile This is the ultimate evolution of Pong systems. Three games--pong, racing, and shooting--each with their own controls, and carts to change the style of the games!
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/22/07 09:31 PM

thats great mevi laugh

I've been looking for one of those and the last one I bidded on was sniped in the dying seconds

The amstrad pc will have its own bios and the megadrive side of it will likely have a bootstrap like the consoles. Although im not a master in this area and could be wrong.

http://mess.toseciso.org/dumping:dump_bios_using_debug?s=dump

This might be helpful in dumping the pc bios.
Posted By: Stiletto

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/23/07 12:48 PM

Originally Posted By R. Belmont
True. Then the problem is that they're an unknown custom CPU :-) (Well, that and paying US$300+ to play a Pong game).


Hmmm... I'll see if I can chase down a data book, there's one for the GI AY-3-8500 to AY-3-8760, so there must be one for the MOS chips out there. I think I might hit up a notable in the industry for this one, see if any engineers out there were pack rats. *adds to to-do list*

I dunno if LN is reading this, but MOS Technology was based outta Norristown, and they became Commodore Semiconductor. smile

- Stiletto
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/23/07 06:21 PM

Originally Posted By Stiletto

Hmmm... I'll see if I can chase down a data book, there's one for the GI AY-3-8500 to AY-3-8760, so there must be one for the MOS chips out there. I think I might hit up a notable in the industry for this one, see if any engineers out there were pack rats. *adds to to-do list*


Awesome! It seems that few of the pong systems were completely analog, and a lot used the same chips or variations of them. So, maybe these could be emulated. And I do seem to love collecting crappy unemulated systems. smile

Dark Watcher's Console History--Pong Madness

Pong Story--Pong In A Chip
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/23/07 06:42 PM

Finally got around to drilling the screws out of the playdia, those are some serious tamperproffed screws, the screwheads collapse in on themselves so your drillbit is just left spinning.

Anyway, just scanned the PCB... I have doubts about this ever working again without some tender loving care. Which its not getting from me. Bitch bit my thumb :|

PCB Scan (1mb, 56k deathtrap)
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/23/07 06:59 PM

Quote:
Awesome! It seems that few of the pong systems were completely analog, and a lot used the same chips or variations of them. So, maybe these could be emulated. And I do seem to love collecting crappy unemulated systems. \:\)

Dark Watcher's Console History--Pong Madness

Pong Story--Pong In A Chip


Thats a lot of pongs, also confirms that my Adman Grandstand is a pong console too.
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/23/07 07:02 PM

Alright. TA2035 is a CD focus controller, TC9263 is a CD drive controller, TMP87C800 is an 8-bit MCU (TLCS-870 series, and the C in the middle seems to indicate mask ROM rather than PROM or EPROM) with 8 or 16k of internal ROM, and LC89515 is a CD-ROM interface. No luck on the NEC D78214 or the Asahi Kasei AK8000 but I gather those are video related.
Posted By: Tafoid

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/23/07 07:13 PM

http://assemblergames.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-13302.html
Came across this useful info just now, might be already known.
The last post in that page seems to detail the parts pretty well.

Also, the RU version of Wikipedia has Specs the English version does not: http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Playdia

http://www.necel.com/en/faq/mi78k/_category.html
Appears that this is main CPU.. info will help.

Tafoid
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/23/07 08:28 PM

Ahh, so two CPUs with internal ROMs. Although given that it boots to a blank screen before the CD loads I can't imagine there are any serious BIOS services so it could be possible to emulate without dumping either CPU.
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/23/07 09:22 PM

I'm dumping the 2 playdia discs I have to CHD. Bishoujo Senshi Sailor Moon S-Quiz Taiketsu! Sailor Power Ketsushuu!! and Newton Museum - Dinosaurs Encyclopedia.
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/24/07 05:19 PM

Hi ranger_lennier, just cracked open my cart for the Adman Grandstand Cartridge TV Game Console (pong system with a very long name)

Cart Scan

On a side note, Im scanning all the boxart, carts, console boxes, inserts, manuals and crap... Does anybody know of a site/project that would be interested in all these? Some of them are pretty interesting.

Insert from the Adman Grandstand (UK Channel F varient)
Posted By: Phil Bennett

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/24/07 05:29 PM

The AY-3-8610 is a 'Pong in a Chip' IC and not dumpable as such.

By co-incidence, I was reading this page last night:

http://www.pong-story.com/gi.htm
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/25/07 06:45 PM

My Casio Loopy and 4 carts just arrived, time to take it apart laugh

Edit: PCB Scan
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/25/07 07:17 PM

SH-1 CPU @ 20 MHz with 32k internal ROM and 1k internal RAM. That's surprisingly powerful for a "toy" console =)
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/25/07 07:56 PM

Wow, I put it back together and it actually works... there is a first for everything.

Casio Loopy Cart - has a battery on the back
Posted By: Dremora

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/25/07 10:28 PM

Hi
I am the founder of redump.org, a CD/DVD dumping project with almost 1500 dumps from different systems, mostly PSX. I think that working together would be a nice idea wink Since I don't know what dumping method and format for storing data you are going to use, I advise you to read our dumping guide (it has been written for PSX, but also is right for other CD-based systems). I hope you'll make the right choice (No-Intro has already made), then our database could serve as source for hashfiles for your emulator.
Thank you and good luck!
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/25/07 10:43 PM

I have a metric assload of orginal ps2/ps1/psp titles.

(pic was taken a year ago my collection is far bigger now)


I'm currently dumping cd's using the gurus method and converting them to the chd format.
Posted By: Dremora

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/25/07 11:48 PM

The Gurus method doesn't use offset correction, so audio tracks will be different on every drive, also some data in the beginning or in the end will be missing. Moreover, it's nearly impossible to make perfect copy of subchannel data (there is no redundant data, therefore no C2 error correction is performed), so direct subchannels copying from CD doesn't make sense, because every dump will have different checksums, even if made on the same drive.
If you wish to help our project with PlayStation dumps, I would be grateful, but please read the guide carefully.
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/26/07 12:02 AM

I still think offset correction is a scheme invented by desperate audio pirates who wanted to maintain their elite status in the face of easy consumer ripping programs. I've yet to see anyone cough up scientific proof of this "phenomena", and everything related to it is conveniently closed source so it can't be independently verified.

Further proof: the industry's most strict perfectionist, Steve Jobs, ships a ripper that doesn't do it.
Posted By: Duke

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/26/07 12:20 AM

There are some very interesting threads over at CDFreaks, but mainly you need to read this thread:

http://club.cdfreaks.com/showthread.php?t=111913

All you ever wanted to know about this offset business.
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/26/07 01:31 AM

Originally Posted By incog
Hi ranger_lennier, just cracked open my cart for the Adman Grandstand Cartridge TV Game Console (pong system with a very long name)

Cart Scan

On a side note, Im scanning all the boxart, carts, console boxes, inserts, manuals and crap... Does anybody know of a site/project that would be interested in all these? Some of them are pretty interesting.

Insert from the Adman Grandstand (UK Channel F varient)


So the cartridge does have a chip on it. Many of the pong systems that used cartridges actually had all the games on the main console, and the cart basically just pushed a switch to select the game.

I'm not sure where the scans should go. I've also got a lot of material like that. Getting high quality scans of this stuff does seem like an important facet of videogame preservation.
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/26/07 01:47 AM

Duke: that's fascinating stuff, thanks. I think the important takeaway is that EAC/AccurateRip's offset value is off by 30 samples, so all the people piously using it to rip CDs are actually off by more than if I use CDRDAO on my "EAC +6" LiteOn LH-20A1L.
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/26/07 01:49 AM

Originally Posted By Phil Bennett
The AY-3-8610 is a 'Pong in a Chip' IC and not dumpable as such.

By co-incidence, I was reading this page last night:

http://www.pong-story.com/gi.htm


Would these be considered a CPU, or are they more like TTL shrunk down?

I did some searching and found a scanned book from GI about their game chips:

ftp://ftp.eskimo.com/u/m/mzenier/GI-Games-1978.pdf

Some of the later chips discussed do have ROM.
Posted By: Dremora

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/26/07 04:05 AM

Originally Posted By R. Belmont
Duke: that's fascinating stuff, thanks. I think the important takeaway is that EAC/AccurateRip's offset value is off by 30 samples, so all the people piously using it to rip CDs are actually off by more than if I use CDRDAO on my "EAC +6" LiteOn LH-20A1L.

Don't forget that there is also write offset, which should be corrected too. If you don't correct it, you'll miss data or have garbage in the end or in the beginning of audio tracks. Also there are some discs which differ only in write offset (for example, Doom). Other discs (like European and US editions of MKT) have the same audio tracks only if you correct both offsets.
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/26/07 05:51 AM

Sure, and after you do that you (and TOSEC, for that matter) still have an entire database of bad rips that are 30 samples off. Luckily for you most PSX games didn't use redbook audio.

I'm also a bit curious about what the offset of the PSX's drive is now. Given that all emulators pretend it's perfect maybe the rips should be deliberately bad in some direction or another? Then again, it's unlikely the offset is the same across the many revisions of that console.
Posted By: Dremora

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/26/07 06:12 AM

You are right about tosec, but our dumps are made using combined (drive read + disc write) offset correction, so they are perfect. Actually our dumps don't depend on drive read offset, the only thing you need to know is the amount of garbage (which in fact is non-descrambled data from data track).
Posted By: Phil Bennett

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/26/07 10:30 AM

Quote:
Would these be considered a CPU, or are they more like TTL shrunk down?

I did some searching and found a scanned book from GI about their game chips:

ftp://ftp.eskimo.com/u/m/mzenier/GI-Games-1978.pdf

Some of the later chips discussed do have ROM.


In the process of writing my reply I seem to have almost completely blanked the earlier discussion from memory crazy. Sorry about that. That explains why I was reading the Pong page!

For that particular IC, I expect it's a hard logic implementation.
Posted By: Dremora

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/26/07 11:57 AM

Originally Posted By R. Belmont
I'm also a bit curious about what the offset of the PSX's drive is now. Given that all emulators pretend it's perfect maybe the rips should be deliberately bad in some direction or another? Then again, it's unlikely the offset is the same across the many revisions of that console.

Both disc write offset and drive read offset should be emulated smile If dump is made only with drive read offset correction and only drive read offset is emulated, some data will be missed due to disc write offset.
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/26/07 09:22 PM

I normally don't argue with religious fanatics, but I fail to see how correcting for all those offsets helps when the offsets are inherantly wrong.
Posted By: Dremora

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/26/07 10:26 PM

The offsets are not religion - it has already been proven many times that our method is bulletproof - it doesn't matter whether EAC's or PerfectRip's reference offset correction is correct. You don't even need to know drive offset. I'll try to explain how do we came to this method.
The data is written to the disc continuously, so the audio track starts exactly where the data track ends. Unfortunately, initial (Red Book) compact disc structure doesn't allow us to tell where exactly the track (or sector) starts. Data tracks (which were introduced by Yellow Book format) have sync and header fields in each sector. Sync is used to find the beginning of the sector, and header to tell us which sector it is. As sync value (00 FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF 00) can appear in other data fields, all the data except for sync and header is scrambled, that is, 2336 bytes of each data sector will consist of pseudo-random data. Only data sectors are scrambled before writing to the disc and descrambled after reading.
If the sum of disc writing offset and drive reading offset is positive, the beginning of audio track will have some data from data track. Because the sector is being read as audio sector, data is not passed to the descrambler. The last sectors of data track always consists of zeroes, and as the data is scrambled, you'll see non-zero values. The amount of these bytes is combined offset and should be used in EAC or PerfectRip as offset correction value.
I hope now you understand our offset searching method smile
Posted By: judge

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/27/07 09:28 AM

What is meant with disc write offset?

If you got a correct way to correctly dump the exact contents of a disc (using drive read offset or what now) then where does the disc write offset come into play?

Interesting info in this thread so far, btw smile
Posted By: Dremora

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/27/07 11:31 AM

Originally Posted By judge
What is meant with disc write offset?

Disc write offset is write offset of the drive where the master disc has been burned.
Originally Posted By judge
If you got a correct way to correctly dump the exact contents of a disc (using drive read offset or what now) then where does the disc write offset come into play?

You don't really need to know/use both offsets to dump disc properly - it's only additional info for preservation. To calculate disc write offset, simply subtract drive read offset from the amount of garbage (scrambled data) smile
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/27/07 07:27 PM

I've now read the redump.org guide and IMO your method for determining the offset is completely bogus. Developers write out full sectors on the data track, so just looking where the zeros are in the last sector is completely inconclusive. I think you'd be ahead just using the detected EAC offset minus 30.

I'm willing to support ISO+WAV rips in chdman, but I want to be sure it's done right first.
Posted By: Dremora

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/27/07 08:46 PM

It seems you haven't understood our method at all. Please read my previous posts again carefully several times until you understand it. Even IpseDixit, who has found EAC-30 offset, supports our method and has already added write offset input field to beta version of his PerfectRip dumping tool.
ISO+WAV format is a wrong choice too - everything must be in RAW (2352 bytes/sector instead of 2048 for data track and audio tracks shouldn't contain unneeded header which wasn't present on the disc).
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/27/07 09:11 PM

I understand your method fine. You are assuming that there are never zeros naturally occuring in the last sector of the data track, and that's simply not true.

Also, your format is what is normally called "ISO+WAV". .ISOs can be full raw sectors.
Posted By: Dremora

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/27/07 09:25 PM

Originally Posted By R. Belmont
I understand your method fine. You are assuming that there are never zeros naturally occuring in the last sector of the data track, and that's simply not true.

That's true. Four zeros will never appear in a row in a scrambled data, because descrambled data consists purely of zeros, and after scrambling every byte will change its value. Please read ECMA-130 to understand how the scrambler works.
So far we have found only 5 PSX write offsets, and they are completely different - do you still think there can be errors in combined offset detection?
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/27/07 09:45 PM

RAW (2352-byte) sector reads on the data track contain the descrambled 2048 bytes of data plus a header and footer. There is nothing preventing there being 4 zeros in a row in the descrambled part of the sector, and at that point your method fails.
Posted By: Dremora

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/27/07 10:01 PM

Originally Posted By R. Belmont
RAW (2352-byte) sector reads on the data track contain the descrambled 2048 bytes of data plus a header and footer.

It seems you don't know structure of the sector. I advise you to read ECMA-130.
Originally Posted By R. Belmont
There is nothing preventing there being 4 zeros in a row in the descrambled part of the sector, and at that point your method fails.

Yes, you are completely right. But the first audio sector contains scrambled data, because drive doesn't passes sectors with audio to descrambler.
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/27/07 10:13 PM

Do you have a technical document that explains your method? The step-by-step is apparently confusing me fatally. I want to be convinced, but at this point I'm equally ready to call TOSEC's rips "official" even though I *know* they suck.
Posted By: Dremora

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/27/07 10:37 PM

I don't have any docs, all the info is in my posts, mostly here. If you don't understand something, please ask, I'll explain.

Maybe this image will help you smile
Posted By: Stiletto

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/29/07 06:44 AM

Yup, discovered that data book several months to a year ago. smile

- Stiletto
- preemptive pwnage since 2000.
Posted By: Dremora

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/29/07 06:52 PM

Two more pics with comments made by Vigi:
Disc with positive combined offset
Disc with negative combined offset (read using audio trap disc method)
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 10/01/07 09:57 AM

Just arrived today:

Amstrad GX4000 PCB Scan
Amstrad GX4000 Cart
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 10/01/07 01:48 PM

Main PCB looks ROMless. I can't tell from the angle the cart pic's at - is it soldered or socketed?
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 10/01/07 01:49 PM

soldered, and I think it has already been dumped

Edit: Removed Amstrad GX4000 from dumping project as it has nothing to dump. Added to drivers needed.
Posted By: mahlemiut

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 10/01/07 11:33 PM

The GX4000 is basically a CPC Plus without a keyboard, cassette deck or disk drive. CPC Plus carts can be used with the GX4000 as well, which MESS already supports, so adding a GX4000 driver shouldn't be too much of a hassle.
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 10/02/07 01:46 PM

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=170153517586&ssPageName=STRK:MEBI:IT&ih=007

Bandai Pippin with bios 1.2

I am the current highest bidder but I dont think I will win. Bios ver 1.0 is aleady with the guru ready to be dumped.
Posted By: MikeB

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 10/06/07 07:37 PM

Hi, a new user of MESS here! I notice that in the current release of MESS there is an appeal for Sinclair QL ROMS for IC33, IC34 and the co-processor. I have these 3 chips (32k, 32k and 2k respectively) already dumped out from a few years ago when I took backups of many of the EPROMs in systems I have here. They are raw binary files of the chip content. Would these be useful? If so, who should I send them to?

Mike.
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 10/06/07 07:48 PM

Yes, absolutely. PM me and we can work out how to get them transfered.
Posted By: Duke

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 10/06/07 07:55 PM

Maybe you have other files we need as well? Here is the list of bad and missing files in MESS: http://mess.toseciso.org/dumping:badmissing

And here is the dumping project page, which lists systems where we need dumps: http://mess.toseciso.org/dumping:info
Posted By: MikeB

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 10/06/07 08:06 PM

Originally Posted By Duke
Maybe you have other files we need as well?


Sadly not, I did look down that list just in case there was anything else. smile

Mike.
Posted By: JoJo

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 10/07/07 05:53 PM

Originally Posted By MikeB
Originally Posted By Duke
Maybe you have other files we need as well?


Sadly not, I did look down that list just in case there was anything else. smile

Mike.


But maybe you have some rarities never dumped before? whistle Can you post a list of your dumps?
Posted By: MikeB

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 10/07/07 09:12 PM

Well, If you insist ...

Some ROMS from an old Future FX30 computer (early PC compatible)

Apple II Europlus keyboard decoder ROM, Fast Noxy (Serial?) card ROM, Konan disk controller,

ASMON V1.0 for Enterprise computer (cartridge)
EXDOS, EXOS 2.0 and 2.1 (Enterprise DISK and 2 versions of OS)
IS Basic 2.0 and 2.1 (for Enterprise, cartridge), the rom in a Spectrum Emulator (hardware addon) for Enterprise,

AT286 PC Phoenix Bios Chip from 1987!

Various printer OS ROMS, Philips? Copy 80, Epson MX80, HP 82906A, Facit plotter, Esprint Dot Matrix.... (printer emulators anyone?)

Oric CUMANA Disk interface ROM, ORIC BASIC 4.0 by Rayzorsoft, Oric Cassette System 2.0 by Rayzorsoft, Oric v1.0 and 1.1 (Atmos) ROMS ...

ICL System 25 terminal unit ROMS

ICL One Per Desk ROMS, somewhere, maybe not dumped yet. There's one MESS doesn't support. Like a QL with a fancy wig on, and a built in telephony module (phone and modem).

And some other equipment that's around from years ago, but not computer or games consoles.



Posted By: JoJo

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 10/07/07 09:45 PM

Originally Posted By MikeB
Well, If you insist ...

Some ROMS from an old Future FX30 computer (early PC compatible)



Nice to have it added to the PC driver...

Originally Posted By MikeB


Apple II Europlus keyboard decoder ROM, Fast Noxy (Serial?) card ROM, Konan disk controller,



All the keyboard decoders of the Apple II need to be dumped, so it's nice to have at least the Europlus at hand... and the external device ROMs are to be emulated too

Originally Posted By MikeB


ASMON V1.0 for Enterprise computer (cartridge)
EXDOS, EXOS 2.0 and 2.1 (Enterprise DISK and 2 versions of OS)
IS Basic 2.0 and 2.1 (for Enterprise, cartridge), the rom in a Spectrum Emulator (hardware addon) for Enterprise,



If the Enterprise driver gets a revamp those will be needed too...

Originally Posted By MikeB


AT286 PC Phoenix Bios Chip from 1987!



Maybe this one has already been dumped...

Originally Posted By MikeB


Various printer OS ROMS, Philips? Copy 80, Epson MX80, HP 82906A, Facit plotter, Esprint Dot Matrix.... (printer emulators anyone?)



Printer emulation will be someday attempted in MESS: having a collection of printer BIOSes already available will be a plus.

Originally Posted By MikeB


Oric CUMANA Disk interface ROM, ORIC BASIC 4.0 by Rayzorsoft, Oric Cassette System 2.0 by Rayzorsoft, Oric v1.0 and 1.1 (Atmos) ROMS ...



Needed as well...

Originally Posted By MikeB


ICL System 25 terminal unit ROMS



Hmm, I don't know this

Originally Posted By MikeB


ICL One Per Desk ROMS, somewhere, maybe not dumped yet. There's one MESS doesn't support. Like a QL with a fancy wig on, and a built in telephony module (phone and modem).



Oh, I remember this... one of the strangest pieces of equipment I've ever seen! It would be funny to have it emulated...

You could arrange with Bletch or RBelmont a way to have these ROMs stored on the FTP archive.
Posted By: MikeB

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 10/07/07 10:20 PM

Hmmm, in which case I've also discovered some 2716 chips that were used with D780C CPU based fruit machines (or similar arcade games).

No, I have NO idea which games at this stage, but the boards they were on were sold as "stripper" PCBs, and the ROMS were dumped just because ... they were there! Some might be decoder ROMS as they only have sparse bits set.

Others have no intelligible content beyond "DDKIGE RPNLSQOM". But one mentions MACKY PIN-Y and MICKY OIKAKE URCHIN MACHIBUSE ROMP AOSUKE MUCKY G-ZUTA MOCKY KIMAGURE STYLIST OTOB-KE CRYBABY in the dumped ASCII. I have no idea what that little lot is, but maybe some hard-core gamer will recognise it smile

Posted By: F1ReB4LL

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 10/07/07 10:48 PM

List seems to be outdated, compare PSX wanted bios list with the latest MESS - most of them are not wanted anymore.

AFAIK, Atari 1200 XL and Atari XE GS roms are also dumped - http://f1reb4ll.dremora.com/osroms.txt
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 10/07/07 11:53 PM

Quote:
List seems to be outdated, compare PSX wanted bios list with the latest MESS - most of them are not wanted anymore.

AFAIK, Atari 1200 XL and Atari XE GS roms are also dumped - http://f1reb4ll.dremora.com/osroms.txt


Updated using psx.c notes smile
Posted By: Justin

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 10/08/07 01:59 AM

Originally Posted By MikeB
Others have no intelligible content beyond "DDKIGE RPNLSQOM". But one mentions MACKY PIN-Y and MICKY OIKAKE URCHIN MACHIBUSE ROMP AOSUKE MUCKY G-ZUTA MOCKY KIMAGURE STYLIST OTOB-KE CRYBABY in the dumped ASCII. I have no idea what that little lot is, but maybe some hard-core gamer will recognise it smile


Well, "OIKAKE", "MACHIBUSE", "AOSUKE", "GUZUTA", and "OTOBOKE" are names and nicknames of ghosts from the Japanese release of Puckman....
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 10/08/07 12:40 PM

Code:
                    NAMES & NICKNAMES OF PAC-MAN GHOSTS


           JAPANESE (orig.)       JAPANESE (alt.)       ENGLISH

RED        Oikake ("Akabei")      Urchin ("Macky")      Shadow ("Blinky")

PINK       Machibuse ("Pinky")    Romp ("Micky")        Speedy ("Pinky")

CYAN       Kimagure ("Aosuke")    Stylist ("Mucky")     Bashful ("Inky")
  
ORANGE     Otoboke ("Guzuta")     Crybaby ("Mocky")     Pokey ("Clyde")


stolen from http://www.kibo.com/rawdata/1999/1999-02-15.txt
Posted By: MikeB

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 10/08/07 05:12 PM

Ah, I thought someone would know them smile

Also I think there's some Grundy Systems "Newbrain" ROMS here somewhere, not dumped. Searching ...

Posted By: MikeB

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 10/14/07 07:47 PM

Originally Posted By JoJo
You could arrange with Bletch or RBelmont a way to have these ROMs stored on the FTP archive.


I can't see any reference to this FTP archive using the MESS forum search, is it publicly available, or only to MESS developers?
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 10/14/07 09:21 PM

MESS developers
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 10/16/07 05:00 PM

Just got an Amstrad Mega PC 386SX though the post! (suprised it got here through the postal strike)

This is the amstrad thats compatible with megadrive carts.

3.5" floppy drive
40mb seagate hdd
Motherboard PCB Scan
Sega Megadrive ISA card PCB Scan

As you can see there is extensive damage tot he top right hand corner of the motherboard (it was sold as broken so i wasnt suprised) so I cant boot it up and dump the bios through debug mode.
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 10/16/07 06:25 PM

There's 3 socketed EPROMs on the board (probably 2 for BIOS, 1 for video BIOS) so pretty much anyone can dump it. In the UK your closest name-brand dumpers are probably the Belgian Dump Team.
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 10/16/07 06:32 PM

One is the keyboard controller, these look easy so i think i'll buy a cheap eprom programmer myself. That said if anybody from the UK already has an eprom programmer I would be more than glad to have it sent.

Should I make an image of the hdd? And do you have the contact details for the Belgian Dump Team?
Posted By: JoJo

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 10/16/07 10:08 PM

Originally Posted By incog
Should I make an image of the hdd? And do you have the contact details for the Belgian Dump Team?


Don't forget dumping character ROMs, if any...
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 10/19/07 04:02 PM

Im still waiting on parcels to arrive due to a postal strike. I've also started a blog so I wont pollute this thread as much smile

http://incog-inblog.blogspot.com/
Posted By: Lord Nightmare

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 10/19/07 05:16 PM

Incog: eeew. that mb is a mess. first thing to do before anything else is cut that 3.4v VARTA nicad off with some cutters, or bend it side to side until it breaks off the board. Then toss it and wash your hands.
Next, take detailed pictures of that corner of the board.
Next, take a toothbrush, and mix a teaspoon of vinegar (or citric acid, if you have it) in a half cup of water, dip the toothbrush in it, and scrub as much of the blue corrosion crap off of the board as possible. Some traces are completely destroyed and this will sort of 'erase' the corroded remains, which is why you took the pictures before. Once you're done scrubbing (if you want to you can mix dish soap into the scrubbing mixture too, it may work better), rinse the whole board off thoroughly using deionized or distilled water. Then take more pictures of the damaged area. It looks like it will need a reasonably extensive repair job, but it isn't as bad as the Prototype moon war board I got. Literally 75% of the back and 35% of the front of the board traces were eaten off!

Once we know the extent of the damage and have neutralized the nicad electrolyte (potassium hydroxide, a very strong base), we can figure out if its fixable or only good for parts.

LN
Posted By: Stiletto

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 10/24/07 05:56 AM

You have not learned yet, grasshopper...

There is no such thing as a MAMEDEV- or MESSDEV-controlled FTP server. There is no such thing as a MAMEDEV or MESSDEV mailing list.

It all exists in a vacuum. Sourcecode spontaneously emerges and glomms onto the WIP source tree.

MAMEDEV and MESSDEV do not know this Guru or others of his ilk, and are not aware of his activities.

Neither is Guru or others of his ilk aware of how the dumps they make of games and systems find their way into the wild, since they are only creating dumps for personal backup purposes.

The ability to play games is merely a nice side effect.

There is also no spoon...
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 10/25/07 07:39 PM

Just hugely updated the dumping list on the Wiki, now it contains everyhing from old-computers.com that isnt currently in MESS, check it out...

http://mess.toseciso.org/dumping:info
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 10/25/07 10:52 PM

Turns out my Amstrad Mega PC 386SX was an Amstrad Mega PC Plus, the bios roms are now dumped and im working on dumping the keyboard controller smile

if anybody is interested give me an email incog88@gmail.com
Posted By: F1ReB4LL

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 10/26/07 11:05 PM

Samsung 3DO should be probably added along with AT&T's one.

http://darkwatcher.psxfanatics.com/console/other3do.htm

And there's also a Developer's 3DO console, which BIOS, IIRC, was dumped by FreeDO crew and being hoarded.
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 10/26/07 11:32 PM

FreeDO? Hoarding? There's a shocker.
Posted By: Rhapsody

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 10/27/07 03:49 AM

FreeDO was really quite a disappointment. It was originally supposed to be a multi-platform GPLed emulator, then it was closed source due to 'legal concerns' (who they were concerned about was never stated), then platforms started dropping off until only three (Windows, Mac OS X, PocketPC) were left (and all releases were for Windows anyway), and now it's dead.

My feeling that it's actually more practical and sensible for an emulator to be open rather than closed source is starting to become confirmed.
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 10/28/07 07:32 PM

Won a few auctions:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=120175713758&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT&ih=002
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=290172389793&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT&ih=019

Also 2 more Playdia discs arrived today, strange considering its sunday. Dumping them to CHD now.

If anybody is interested in emulating the Playdia I now have 4 CHD dumps for you to look at smile
Posted By: etabeta78

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 10/28/07 08:24 PM

on a similar topic: did anyone tried to start a project to dump to CHD the CDROM for PCE and/or CDTV (both system should be working now in MESS)?

I know that there were quite large communities which managed to release proper cue+bin images for both systems, so it would be nice to find someone in contact with them to produce good CHD images!
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 10/28/07 08:56 PM

Actually AFAIK no community has produced completely proper images - TOSEC was going by the EAC detected offset which we now know is wrong, and I've not yet seen good technical proof that the weird hexeditor method someone was arguing for here a month ago is actually any better. I'd love to so we can lock up CDs once and for all and maybe get some of the arcade ones redumped while they're still available, but there's a general unwillingness for people to work together on this stuff.
Posted By: Dremora

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 10/28/07 09:25 PM

Originally Posted By R. Belmont
Actually AFAIK no community has produced completely proper images - TOSEC was going by the EAC detected offset which we now know is wrong, and I've not yet seen good technical proof that the weird hexeditor method someone was arguing for here a month ago is actually any better. I'd love to so we can lock up CDs once and for all and maybe get some of the arcade ones redumped while they're still available, but there's a general unwillingness for people to work together on this stuff.

Have you seen my recent posts?
Posted By: etabeta78

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 10/28/07 09:28 PM

Originally Posted By R. Belmont
TOSEC was going by the EAC detected offset which we now know is wrong


could you elaborate a bit more?
Posted By: F1ReB4LL

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 10/28/07 09:29 PM

Originally Posted By R. Belmont
I've not yet seen good technical proof that the weird hexeditor method someone was arguing for here a month ago is actually any better.


It's better, because you can get the same checksums for same audiotracks on different CDs (different pressings or different CDs - like PSX Euro Demo CD's with the same games on different volumes) - already proofed by Redump.org. And you'll never get the same checksums using the TOSEC's method - except for dummy tracks.

C'mon, make your OWN data+audio image, burn it and try to rip it using both metods, than compare checksums with the source. Guess, you won't have any questions after that.

Originally Posted By R. Belmont
there's a general unwillingness for people to work together on this stuff.


People don't want to work with you or you don't want to work with people?
Posted By: F1ReB4LL

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 10/28/07 09:36 PM

Originally Posted By etabeta78
Originally Posted By R. Belmont
TOSEC was going by the EAC detected offset which we now know is wrong


could you elaborate a bit more?


http://www.digital-inn.de/118309-post13.html
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 10/28/07 11:00 PM

Dreamora: I've seen them, and they were not satisfying. You obviously have better data around to have convinced the people you did, so please present me with the better. It's that easy.

Fireball: I'd love to work with people, but I have high standards. Most CD rippers are far more interested in eliteness than preservation.
Posted By: Stiletto

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 10/28/07 11:56 PM

I am convinced that it would have not always been that way. You can PM me for more details, but information exchange was... decent in the early days of FreeDO.

They clammed up.
At the other end, interest waned, the ball was dropped.

These days, I hear SDKs and other interesting docs are available to the interested dev.
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 10/29/07 12:11 AM

The SDK is useless - it's all high-level OS calls. It's like trying to use Win32 docs to reverse-engineer a PC.

Ernesto figured out FreeDO isn't even an emulator in the MAME/MESS sense - it's a stack of hacks that manages to run a lot of games for all the wrong reasons basically. Now do you understand what they were trying to hide? smile
Posted By: mangamuscle

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 10/29/07 02:39 AM

Originally Posted By R. Belmont
Ernesto figured out FreeDO ... it's a stack of hacks that manages to run a lot of games.

If FreeDo is dead they should release the source code, maybe then somebody will improve upon it.
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 10/29/07 04:01 AM

I don't think you understand - having it unavailable is the best way to ensure improvement. It does not emulate any of the custom chips, it emulates the 3do's OS calls (the same way N64 game-emulators [don't] work). Having the source would tell us nothing and could potentially lead to another console lost in a flood of bad HLE emulators until Ville saves the day ;-)
Posted By: mangamuscle

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 10/29/07 05:14 AM

In an ideal world I have no doubt that would work in 10 out of 10 examples. Sadly a driver with clean emulation but limited success at it means little interest for working into it, the most "explosive" driver developments in MAME have been achieved when a driver shows good (even if it is hacky) advancement, then interest grows and many people give it a little polish here and there. I doubt there would be lots of clones of freedo if the source is released simply because it is not a popular machine. But hey, this is my opinion, YMMV, I would be gladly surprised if someone out of the blue does all the hard work required for a clean emulation of the 3DO, since it is probably even harder than the Neo·Geo 64.
Posted By: judge

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 10/29/07 07:11 AM

There are currently more important things to work on: fix some regressions, getting rid of duplicated chip emulation between mame and mess, clean up/fix some of the older drivers, etc.

This why I'm not actively working on the 3do drivers at the moment. If you feel like contributing, be my guest, information on parts of the entire system is out there. Whatever is in subversion is the most current version of the driver.
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 10/29/07 12:13 PM

NG64 is fairly conventional for 3D hardware of that era. 3D0 is just weird :-)
Posted By: etabeta78

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 10/29/07 02:33 PM

Originally Posted By judge
There are currently more important things to work on: fix some regressions, getting rid of duplicated chip emulation between mame and mess, clean up/fix some of the older drivers, etc.


and add skeleton drivers for old systems wink
hopefully at a certain point we'll see also a neo geo pocket preliminary driver

anyway, whatever you decide to work on, thanks for all the work you're doing on MESS
Posted By: ht1848

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 10/29/07 04:16 PM

Originally Posted By R. Belmont
...Ville saves the day ;-)


Dear Ville,
Stop playing WoW! I miss you.
Love,
MESS

Back on topic - Nice clean up on the Dumping wiki page. Looks good.
Do we need to organize a mass shipping drive?
Posted By: Heretical_One

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 10/30/07 06:13 AM

What's so odd about the 3D0?
Posted By: JoJo

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 10/30/07 01:09 PM

Back on topic, browsing thru Coleco Adam sources (in particular drivers/adam.c), I've read about the AdamNet architecture, used to connect the Adam to its peripherals: in short the master unit and the peripherals communicate via M6801 microcontrollers, so it all boils down to dumping the following M6801s:

Master (on Adam PCB)
Tape (on Adam PCB)
Keyboard (on Adam PCB)
Printer
Disk drive
Gateway (?)
Serial/parallel board (just one prototype in existence, good luck!)

The first four should be easy enough to find, since the Adam without a printer is dead as a brick - the drive shouldn't be a problem. Last two... hmm don't hold the breath! wink

The 6801s are masked, and the disk drives boards use also socketed EPROMs besides the 6801.
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 10/30/07 01:26 PM

H_O: rather than sprites or tilemaps or polygons it used a cel compositing engine. In practice it's not too dissimilar to the Saturn's distorted sprites, but it's definitely unusual.
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/01/07 02:23 AM

I recieved a Toshiba T2000SX Laptop today, the one I won for £1 wink

PCB Scan
PCB Scan Continued
PCB Back

And I've now dumped it laugh
Posted By: Heretical_One

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/03/07 06:21 AM

In the "not to be emulated in MESS in the near future" category, does anyone know if the SPCH-79001 PS2s have a newer BIOS than the SPCH-77001?

The former appear to be new since the last time I saw full cases (and it's slightly possible that they haven't been released into the wild just yet)
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/04/07 11:01 PM

Recieved 2 parcels today, one was a Amstrad PPC 640 and the other was a collection of Acetronic carts.

I think all the Acetronic carts I own are already dumped but curiosity got the better of me again so I cracked one open.
Posted By: Phil Bennett

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/05/07 01:54 AM

SBB2616 is a 2kB mask ROM. Shouldn't be too tricky to dump - if you can desolder it!
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/05/07 01:53 PM

Amstrad PPC 640 PCB Scans:

http://aycu24.webshots.com/image/30063/2001402173724261147_rs.jpg
http://aycu13.webshots.com/image/30732/2001400037549640541_rs.jpg
http://aycu22.webshots.com/image/33501/2001451124110104899_rs.jpg
Posted By: MooglyGuy

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/06/07 03:17 PM

Someone should buy this, as there are currently no Newton dumps, let alone one of the eMate: http://cgi.ebay.com/Apple-emate-300-Newt...1QQcmdZViewItem

I'd buy it, but I'm understandably tapped out after having spent $450 for the sake of getting Star Wars Pod Racer in order to have it dumped.
Posted By: MooglyGuy

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/06/07 03:21 PM

Does this look like it would have anything dumpable? http://cgi.ebay.com/National-Semiconduct...1QQcmdZViewItem
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/06/07 03:25 PM

I'm almost positive there are Newton dumps - there's at least one working emulator and it supports models up to eMate.
Posted By: MooglyGuy

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/06/07 03:42 PM

I've never heard of it and I've never seen an eMate dump. If I knew there was one, I'd have already tried adding the sucker to MESS.
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/06/07 03:47 PM

Emulator is here, it's open-source, and the Mac version at least can remotely dump a Newton's ROM.
Posted By: Vas Crabb

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/06/07 03:54 PM

I have a MessagePad 2100, and yes, there are a number of utilities that can dump its ROM.
Posted By: Phil Bennett

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/06/07 04:39 PM

It don't see why that STARPLEX system wouldn't have any dumpable stuff. I believe it's 8080/Z80 based.

Here's one in its full glory:
http://www.1000bit.net/lista/dati/n/national_semiconductor/startplex_ad.jpg
Posted By: MooglyGuy

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/06/07 04:52 PM

Originally Posted By R. Belmont
Emulator is here, it's open-source, and the Mac version at least can remotely dump a Newton's ROM.


Fair enough, but if the ROMs are floating around, I'd prefer to not have to shell out money (or for anyone else to have to do so) on a Newton or eMate just to do redundant dumping.
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/06/07 05:31 PM

Well, even if they aren't Vas can certainly get us his MP's ROM smile
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/06/07 05:53 PM

Recently spotted 2 very interesting items:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Nintendo-Super-Fam...oQQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Nintendo-Super-Fam...oQQcmdZViewItem

and this store has some very cheap PC Engine CDs

http://stores.ebay.co.uk/DREAM-STARS-JAPAN_PC-ENGINE-CD_W0QQcolZ2QQdirZ1QQfsubZ3QQftidZ2QQtZkm
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/06/07 06:21 PM

Currently bidding on 2 undumped BBC Bridge Companion carts. smile

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=300166154882&ssPageName=STRK:MEBI:IT&ih=020
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=300166157215&ssPageName=STRK:MEBI:IT&ih=020
Posted By: Phil Bennett

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/07/07 02:27 PM

Ooooh, fingers crossed!

The driver will be finished in time for the dumps, honest smile
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/08/07 03:18 AM



These are considered Wanted Dumps for MAME, actually. The Super Famicom Box was a pay-for-play system used in Japanese hotels. I've passed it along to Guru.
Posted By: Stiletto

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/08/07 06:27 AM

Hmm.. Color me interested.

*looks*

Okay, that emulator is a bit of a cheat, per MAME/MESS's way of doing things. They've effectively bypassed attempting to emulate the undocumented Cirrus CL-PS7010/20/30 chipset by writing their own drivers for other memory controllers, etc, and hooking them in to replace the originals. Or something like that.

Now, on the other hand, obtaining docs on said chipset? I smell a challenge!

Datasheets/documentation available:
Apple Newton MessagePad 1x0 series chips (approx.):
VY86C610/P610ARM - VLSI or GEC Plessey/ARM - CPU
Z85C30 - Zilog - RS422 Serial
28F008SA - Intel - Flash memory
AD7880AR - Analog Devices - A/D Converter
LT1271CQ - Linear Tech - Switching Reg.
Likely any other RAM

Apple Newton "N2" Platform (M2x00/emate 300) series chips (approx.):
SA-110S - Digital Equip. (DEC) - CPU (M2x00)
VLSI VY86C710A - VLSI/ARM - CPU (emate)
LH28F016SUT-70 - Sharp - Flash RAM
CS8130 - Cirrus Logic - Infrared Transceiver
TC51V4260DFTS-60 - Toshiba - DRAM - or
HM51W4260CLTT7 - Hitachi - DRAM - or
HM51W16165LTT6 - Hitachi - DRAM
LTC1323CG - Linear Tech - RS422 AppleTalk chip
MAX1771 - Maxim - Voltage converter

Datasheets/documentation unavailable:
Apple Newton MessagePad 1x0 series chips (approx.):
"RUNT" (LIC 7645) - Apple - Chipset (DRAM Control, Memory management, DMA, RTC, video interface, audio, PCMCIA)
LTC902CS - Linear Tech - Driver/Receiver for Z85C30
Whatever ROM chips storing the OS

Apple Newton "N2" Platform (M2x00/emate 300) series chips (approx.):
CL-PS7010 - Cirrus Logic - CPU Subsystem Controller
CL-PS7020 - Cirrus Logic - Analog Controller
CL-PS7030 - Cirrus Logic - PCMCIA Controller
LHME5BT3 - Sharp - ROM
LHME5BT4 - Sharp - ROM

Woohoo, sounds like fun. Damned if I know how we'd do it without leaked documentation. Decapping might help some, but we'd actually need an electron microscope, and they're likely multi-layer chips.

One thing no one in the Newton scene has commented on publicly that I can see: The Cirrus Logic CL-PS70x0 were developed in combination with Apple, yes, but there's a follow-up chipset called the CL-PS7110. It's actually a SoC "System-On-a-Chip" that effectively combines the CL-PS70x0 features with an ARM7100 core onto one chip - a PDA on a chip. It came out after the CL-PS70x0, obviously, but there's actually some documentation on it out there. While Apple-proprietary tech. wouldn't be in it, maybe there's enough similarities in features to start looking at it.

Bonus: The CL-PS7110 series was used in the Epoc Psion5.
Posted By: MooglyGuy

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/08/07 01:26 PM

Actually, decapping wouldn't really help at all; it's only useful for giving very general descriptions of the surface features of a chipset. Decapping companies being able to reconstruct a map of registers and their functions is still a long way off. frown
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/08/07 01:55 PM

I dunno, I don't think Apple's done anything scary in custom logic ever, with the possible exception of the later-generation floppy controllers (and even then I think the lack of support for them in Linux/BSD is more a matter of their general lack of usefulness once you have an HDD and Ethernet going than anything else). It should be possible to work out what's going on smile
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/08/07 02:20 PM

Originally Posted By ranger_lennier


These are considered Wanted Dumps for MAME, actually. The Super Famicom Box was a pay-for-play system used in Japanese hotels. I've passed it along to Guru.


...who is somewhat interested, but has no money for it. Anyone want to chip in?
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/08/07 03:04 PM

do we just donate though the usual way?

edit: btw I won the 2 BBC Bridge Companion Carts, Im counting up all my spare change to see what I can donate to the guru
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/09/07 01:59 AM

Originally Posted By incog
do we just donate though the usual way?

edit: btw I won the 2 BBC Bridge Companion Carts, Im counting up all my spare change to see what I can donate to the guru


Well, to donate for a particular item, we'd need to raise enough money to buy it and either make arrangements with him or just buy it ourselves and send it to him. Obviously he'd appreciate any donations, but just sending some spare change, there's no guarantee what it will be used for. Any idea what these are actually worth? If we can get them for $100 a-piece, it's probably doable, but I'm not sure if that's realistic or not.
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/09/07 02:05 AM

You under estimate how much spare change I had, haha.

£46 in total but I'll round it up to £50, going by the current exhange rate thats a little more than $100.
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/09/07 03:45 AM

Originally Posted By ranger_lennier
Any idea what these are actually worth? If we can get them for $100 a-piece, it's probably doable, but I'm not sure if that's realistic or not.


Well I've never seen a snes version of a hotel system before and had no idea that MAMEDev is interested in these systems but it does makes sense considering they are coin operated. I don't know how many other carts for this system exist... the only info ive found is here http://www.tv-gamekan.com/famcmbox.htm

The photo shows carts that are identical to the ones in the auction.
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/09/07 11:12 PM

My earlier research indicated that those two carts are the only ones. If you can cover one at the opening bid, I can take care of the other. If we want to deal with competition, someone else will have to contribute.
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/09/07 11:37 PM

Thats fine with me laugh do you want me to paypal you the $100? I'll throw in a bit extra too to go towards shipping to the guru.
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/10/07 12:42 AM

Originally Posted By incog
Thats fine with me laugh do you want me to paypal you the $100? I'll throw in a bit extra too to go towards shipping to the guru.


I have no problem doing that. I just asked Guru if he'd rather I bid on them or if he wanted to do it himself.
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/10/07 01:08 AM

I updated the Dumping Project page with a few more games, plus a TV-Link for the Supervision. There's one more R-Zone game, some Supervision games (particularly extras of ones Guru's had trouble dumping), all the Telstar Arcade carts, and in a new appearance, a cart for the Entex Select-A-Game. I still haven't managed to find a system, though.

http://mess.toseciso.org/dumping:info#in_ranger_lenniers_s_possession
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/10/07 05:20 PM

Originally Posted By ranger_lennier
Originally Posted By incog
Thats fine with me laugh do you want me to paypal you the $100? I'll throw in a bit extra too to go towards shipping to the guru.


I have no problem doing that. I just asked Guru if he'd rather I bid on them or if he wanted to do it himself.


Guru preferred we take care of the bidding ourselves, and send them to him if we wanted. I went ahead and placed the minimum bid for each cart. If someone else wants to add in, I can set up a snipe for a higher bid in case someone else bids on it.

What is the best place to send these for dumping? I'm not sure whether or not they can be dumped just like Super Famicom carts.
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/10/07 06:17 PM

The connectors definitely aren't the same as SFC carts - it's possible if you open the big shell that there are 3 SFC carts inside or something, but it's unknown right now.
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/10/07 10:11 PM

Now im dying to see one cracked open!

If we win we should probably ship it direct to the guru, Japan is much closer to Austrailia than any of us heh.

Once they are fully dumped and documented I dont mind if they are sold on to fund the mame dumping project.
Posted By: F1ReB4LL

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/10/07 11:41 PM



Same seller also offers Nintendo Sharp Famicom Box carts (which are cheaper).
Posted By: F1ReB4LL

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/10/07 11:54 PM

Originally Posted By R. Belmont
I've not yet seen good technical proof that the weird hexeditor method someone was arguing for here a month ago is actually any better.


Another method was recently discovered (same idea, same results, just another approach), which proves that redump's method is correct) - http://forum.redump.org/viewtopic.php?id=2057
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/11/07 07:31 PM

Originally Posted By incog
Currently bidding on 2 undumped BBC Bridge Companion carts. smile

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=300166154882&ssPageName=STRK:MEBI:IT&ih=020
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=300166157215&ssPageName=STRK:MEBI:IT&ih=020


These arrived today while I was at work, they are now dumped laugh
Posted By: Mevi

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/12/07 05:18 PM

Originally Posted By incog
Turns out my Amstrad Mega PC 386SX was an Amstrad Mega PC Plus, the bios roms are now dumped and im working on dumping the keyboard controller smile

if anybody is interested give me an email incog88@gmail.com


So I suppose my Amstrad Mega PC 386SX BIOS is still needed, according to the wiki ? I really should move my lazy ass and dig it from the basement. It's not in mint condition but the motherboard is in good shape and it booted last time I tried. The floppy died in front of me though, with some smoke. Can do some pics if needed.

I could dump the HDD but it's probably not in it's original state. Is there something else to dump except the BIOS via debug ? I'm in Belgium so the Belgian Dump Team could probably help as I have no equipment.
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/12/07 05:40 PM

Yep, the Amstrad Mega PC 386SX BIOS is still needed. Mine said Mega PC 386SX on the casing but the insides were Mega PC Plus.

I dumped the BIOS from mine using a cheap eprom programmer but I dont know of any other way to dump them.

R.Belmont might have info for the belgian dump team smile
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/14/07 01:35 AM

I won the auctions for the Super Famicom Box carts and they should be on their way to Guru. Thanks to incog for helping out!
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/14/07 01:54 AM

Nice smile
Posted By: JohnnyDude

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/15/07 12:57 AM

I consider Freedo to be a failure in some respects. It's taking too darned long! As a result, I'm interested in doing some 3do emulator development. I'm attempting to figure out the basics of the direction on the concept. I'm afraid I don't exactly know what MESS is, but I like the idea of an all-encompassing emulator, and I'm not opposed to simply creating a 3do portion for it. Could someone message me and provide me with some direction?
Posted By: Duke

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/15/07 02:18 AM

There is already a (very very prelimary) 3DO component in MESS, see drivers/3do.c. As for help on MESS, there isn't really that much I'm afraid, some useful content is in the MESS DevWiki. I suggest you get the lastest source from SVN and train to understand some easier drivers.
Posted By: F. Valero

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/15/07 05:25 PM

There were a few Mattel Aquarius that was sell with a BIOS prior to the BIOS that it's in MAME, one can tell the difference because the new BIOS displays "S2" top right and the original doesn't do this, how can we add this to the dumping project?
Posted By: F. Valero

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/15/07 05:45 PM

Some information that its necessary to make a new driver or to modify it, it's schematics of the machine, technical info about the chips, technical info about the computer/console, memory maps, interrupt lists. Not all of this is necessary but could be helpful.
Posted By: JoJo

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/15/07 06:40 PM

Originally Posted By F. Valero
There were a few Mattel Aquarius that was sell with a BIOS prior to the BIOS that it's in MAME, one can tell the difference because the new BIOS displays "S2" top right and the original doesn't do this, how can we add this to the dumping project?


The Aquarius needs a redump of the character ROM too.

BTW there's an Aquarius community on Yahoo Groups: they have dumped schematics, manuals and cartridges - maybe some of them would be kind to help the dumping project.
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/17/07 03:49 AM

Another update the the Dumping Project page. I'm the master of crappy portable video game collecting, with one more R-Zone game and one more Supervision game. And in the "How the hell are we supposed to emulate this?" category, I now have all five interactive Captain Power toys.

http://mess.toseciso.org/dumping:info#in_ranger_lenniers_s_possession
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/17/07 09:36 PM

Got another R-Zone game--Virtua Cop. Tiger did at least get some good licenses. I wonder why no one sells huge lots of R-Zone games. I've got 21 games now, but I think it's taken about a dozen auctions to get that much together. At least they tend to go cheap.
Posted By: JoJo

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/19/07 11:56 AM

If someone is still interested in obtaining a Mattel Aquarius for dumping purposes, this one goes cheap.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Mattel-Aquarius-1983...1QQcmdZViewItem

This guy has also a lot of older console which need redumping (Arcadia 2001, ADAM, etc) and are cheap too.

http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQfgtpZ1QQfrppZ25QQsassZpetrobark

Posted By: mellery

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/19/07 01:41 PM

I'm bidding on some coleco stuff thats ending today and tomorrow, but I can help bid on some of the auctions above.
Posted By: mellery

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/21/07 04:58 AM

I won a few auctions of coleco stuff, i'll update the dumping list but I'll have everything thats listed as needed for them smile
Posted By: JoJo

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/21/07 10:05 AM

C'mon, don't tease us... wink what have you won?
Posted By: mellery

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/21/07 01:17 PM

Quiz Wiz, Quiz Wiz Challenger, and Coleco Gemini (atari 2600 clone)

smile
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/25/07 02:12 AM

The Super Famicom Box carts made it to Guru safely. They seem to have one ROM chip for each game. So, that's seven chips, of which six are definitely dumpable, and one of the chips in the four-game cart Guru's not sure about right now. It's possible they'll just be the same as existing Super Famicom dumps, but we should know soon one way or the other. And, as Guru points out, we don't have a system to dump any BIOS it might have. I'm not sure whether or not this will prevent emulation.
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/25/07 05:12 PM

Fantasic news!

Glad to hear that they arrived safely laugh
Posted By: mellery

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/01/07 01:12 PM

The Coleco Gemini has these two ICs, how would I get them dumped for mess?

U2 = R12010 A8407 0291755 F810928
U3 = VTI 73192 E4002 8412

both are dip package, I can provide pictures if needed

(U1 is a voltage regulator)

Thanks
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/01/07 05:36 PM

The R-Zone sage continues. I picked up six unopened games on eBay. There was only one I didn't already have, Area 51, but luckily they only cost $1.06 plus shipping. smile
Posted By: JohnnyDude

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/07/07 05:28 AM

Originally Posted By Duke
There is already a (very very prelimary) 3DO component in MESS, see drivers/3do.c. As for help on MESS, there isn't really that much I'm afraid, some useful content is in the MESS DevWiki. I suggest you get the lastest source from SVN and train to understand some easier drivers.


I don't fully understand the project, but is MESS not compatible with HLE-type of emulation? Is it mainly to support real, hard emulation of the hardware?

I ask because I intend to make an HLE 3DO emulator, even though to immortalize the system I think the old-fashioned way is certainly more appropriate for this.
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/07/07 05:36 AM

We strongly prefer real hardware emulation, yes.
Posted By: Rhapsody

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/09/07 03:09 PM

Why on Earth would anyone want to make an HLE 3DO emulator at this point in time? Haven't we reached the point where the average PC can quite easily handle LLE 3DO?
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/09/07 04:46 PM

Yeah, it's a 12 MHz system - that's slower than a Gameboy Advance smile
Posted By: Jonathan Wilson

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/09/07 09:59 PM

I guess the attraction of HLE for the 3DO is that it avoids the need to reverse engineer various parts of the console (graphics etc)

Posted By: MooglyGuy

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/09/07 10:45 PM

Yeah, god forbid someone should put a little effort into making a quality emulator.
Posted By: etabeta78

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/11/07 02:20 PM

@incog, ranger_lennier & others members of dumping project: when you buy rare systems, would you mind to take pictures also of the system itself in addition to the ones of its silicon guts?

sometimes it's not possible to find info around the web...

e.g. I cannot describe in any way the BBC Bridge Companion for sysinfo, because I have no idea of how it looks like (I only found that it was a computer device to play bridge... due to its name and its mention in a book about card games smile )

a picture could help!

thanks in advance

p.s. of course, even if time consuming, also scans of systems/games manual/boxes would be very cool smile
Posted By: Phil Bennett

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/11/07 02:37 PM

Quote:

e.g. I cannot describe in any way the BBC Bridge Companion for sysinfo, because I have no idea of how it looks like (I only found that it was a computer device to play bridge... due to its name and its mention in a book about card games smile )

a picture could help!


That's still in my possession; I'll provide you with a photo.
Posted By: etabeta78

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/11/07 03:11 PM

ok, thanks

it would be cool, anyway, to put some pictures of the unemulated systems on the mess wiki (in the dumping page, as a start) smile
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/11/07 05:09 PM

http://aycu06.webshots.com/image/38445/2000173340596940559_rs.jpg

Front page of the manual, I have the entire manual scanned but its somewhere around 55mb (only around 12 pages but 300dpi png)

edit: the back of the manual has a better unobstructed view, http://aycu38.webshots.com/image/36917/2002581135533896108_rs.jpg
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/13/07 01:53 AM

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Nintendo-Famicom-V...oQQcmdZViewItem

Very interesting, anybody know anything about it?

3 bids already, Im willing to donate towards it if anybody is interested, I'll donate up to £100.
Posted By: Duke

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/13/07 01:56 AM

I doubt theres anything to dump, it just switches the games based on the location of the knob in front.
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/13/07 02:09 AM

I have thought about making good pictures/scans of some of my rare stuff. (Already have in a few cases.) Would the wiki be an appropriate place for large-scale scan collections, or are you looking for just small snapshots? Where would they go, and what quality is wanted? I'd be willing to make a lot of high-res pictures and scans of systems, boxes, games, and instructions as a long-term project, provided that they have a good home. smile

Originally Posted By etabeta78
@incog, ranger_lennier & others members of
dumping project: when you buy rare systems, would you mind to take pictures also of the system itself in addition to the ones of its silicon guts?

sometimes it's not possible to find info around the web...

e.g. I cannot describe in any way the BBC Bridge Companion for sysinfo, because I have no idea of how it looks like (I only found that it was a computer device to play bridge... due to its name and its mention in a book about card games smile )

a picture could help!

thanks in advance

p.s. of course, even if time consuming, also scans of systems/games manual/boxes would be very cool smile
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/13/07 02:39 AM

Originally Posted By Duke
I doubt theres anything to dump, it just switches the games based on the location of the knob in front.


http://www.japan-games.com/eBayPictures/VideoMate_1C.jpg

There are the games, im assuming they are different from the plain cart dumps but then again I know nothing about it.
Posted By: Duke

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/13/07 04:10 AM

He also says you can install other games, which probably means that they are not modified.

ranger_lennier: The Wiki is fine by me for pictures if you want to add them. A gallery plugin is already installed (currently used for screenshots).
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/13/07 04:59 AM

Originally Posted By Duke
He also says you can install other games, which probably means that they are not modified.


Thanks duke, i'll just save the cash for the next interesting item smile
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/13/07 03:12 PM

Originally Posted By Duke

ranger_lennier: The Wiki is fine by me for pictures if you want to add them. A gallery plugin is already installed (currently used for screenshots).


Should they just go with the system info? I guess we could make a section there for unemulated systems as well. I plan to make high quality scans for myself (300 dpi, PNG). But the file sizes can add up. Is that OK, or do I need to convert to JPEG or something for the Wiki? What about multi-page items like instruction booklets--a collection of scans or compile into a single document (and how)? Also, I can do basic stuff like clipping, but I'd be open to someone doing more image cleaning if they're interested. It could take a little thought to get this right...
Posted By: Duke

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/13/07 05:23 PM

Maybe create pages like sysinfo:unemulated:systemname? In that way, we can easily move them to the regular sysinfo pages once added to MESS.

Space is not really an issue, theres lots of it on the server. Multi-page items would probably be best in PDF format.
Posted By: etabeta78

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/13/07 06:17 PM

these unMESSed pages sounds quite interesting to me... I'll take a look to add a few...

btw what is exactly this 'tag' mania that you passed to ht1848 and how do those tags work exactly?

Posted By: Duke

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/13/07 06:23 PM

Those tags allow me to automatically generate the list of systems on the sysinfo front page. So whenever a new system is added or deleted, the list is automatically changed.
Posted By: etabeta78

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/13/07 06:24 PM

then i'll help to complete the tagging (and good to know that I don't have to add links by hand anymore smile )
Posted By: etabeta78

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/14/07 01:35 PM

ok created a sysinfo:unemulated page and a gba test page... would an 'unemulated' tag work to generate automatically the system list for this subpage? can you take a look at it?

if it's working, I'll add a few more pages wink
Posted By: Duke

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/14/07 01:42 PM

Please tag them with both "sysinfo" and "unemulated", its easy to create the list then.

I'm not really comfortable with copying the whole Wikipedia article by the way. Their content is not public domain but licensed under the GFDL which states for example that you must have a copy of the license and a list of main authors. Maybe we can shorten that a bit and link to it instead? I know this won't work for the sysinfo.dat file, but then again, MESS doesn't want any source files to just appear somewhere else without license either.
Posted By: etabeta78

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/14/07 01:57 PM

ooops... I didn't know about that. I will shorten down all the entries of sysinfo coming from wikipedia soon, then (most of the console entries come from there).

thanks for letting me know (I read their terms a looooong time ago, and forgot the details... at the point I was almost sure it was ok to copy those)

being on the topic: is it still ok to copy old-computers.com entries (I'm almost sure we had their agreement, but I'd like to be sure)?
Posted By: Duke

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/14/07 02:07 PM

I'm pretty sure the old-computers.com stuff is fine, but I don't know any details about the agreement. Maybe ht1848 can comment?
Posted By: ht1848

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/14/07 02:32 PM

Thanks for help completing the tagging etabeta.

The old-computers.com stuff was done before I got involved in MESS (Chris Henry?). In fact much of my early changes were re-writing those enteries to not be based on any specific text from old-computers.com or other clearly plagiarized places. I don't really like the copy whole sections method, but at least the source reference gives some credit. sysinfo.dat has always had general format and content challenges and I am not sure we can solve them without a significant discussion...(in a different thread).

In conclusion...Dump more stuff.
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/15/07 05:35 AM

Wikipedia is moving towards license compatibility with GNU and Creative Commons, though it looks like it's not quite finalized yet.

http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Resolution:License_update
Posted By: Justin

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/15/07 09:10 PM

To get back to the dumping topic, Guru updated his site with a list of all the stuff he has and hasn't dumped, a bunch of the console carts like RCA Studio II and APF M-1000 are listed as undumpable in any of his EPROM readers though frown
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/15/07 10:11 PM

I sent Guru a link to an RCA Studio II dumping method, but he hasn't tried it yet.

http://studio2.classicgaming.gamespy.com/dump.htm

I talked to someone who said his ROM reader could support APF ROM chips, but I need to get more information.

I have no idea what to do with the R-Zone.

I talked to someone who thought he knew how to trojan the Epoch Game Pocket Computer bios, but it seems he and Guru haven't gotten in contact for whatever reason. I'll try to move that along.

Guru said he thought PeT, a MESS developer, had dumped all of the Supervision carts, which came as a surprise to me since I've been looking for the other ones listed as undumped in the hash file. The last this was discussed here, there were still many undumped carts. Does anyone know more? Who's PeT, anyway?
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/15/07 10:17 PM

PeT is Peter Trauner.
Posted By: mellery

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/20/07 04:27 PM

The Coleco Triv Whiz only has a MC14077B (NOR chip) MC14069ub (hex inverter), and a co10816 (hex buffer IC). There might be something in the trivia cartridges thats dumpable, i'll have to check, but i would guess theres just a MUX, or jumpers

The Coleco Triv Whiz Challenger has a TMS1000NLL (the total control has a TMS1400), I'd like to find out how to get both dumped.
Posted By: Lord Nightmare

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/23/07 07:35 AM

tms1xxx chips are evil. there supposedly IS a way to dump them, visible because the speak&spell patent has a full gate diagram of the tms1002, but we haven't figured out how to work it yet. Frank Palazzolo knows the most about it.
Unless we can figure out how to dump the chips that way, the only way to dump them is to decapsulate them.

LN
Posted By: mellery

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/23/07 01:38 PM

thanks for the reply, guess I'd better start reading that patent, looks like it has a lot of info
Posted By: Lord Nightmare

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/23/07 11:57 PM

The speak&spell patent is us patent 4,209,836 which can be retrieved from http://www.pat2pdf.org/patents/pat4209836.pdf

sheets 34 and onward cover the TMS1002? MCU and TMS6100 'VSM' serial rom.
Sheets 1 thru 33 cover the TMS5100 LPC chip.

LN
Posted By: etabeta78

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/29/07 10:54 PM

a question: is the Sega Pico a possible emulation target? if yes, is it already dumped?
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/29/07 11:47 PM

The eBay seller japan-games has an awesome set of imports up for sale now. This could really help move forward the emulation of obscure Japanese systems. I went ahead and bought an Epoch Game Pocket Computer with the last undumped game, Astro Bomber, for $139.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=ADME:B:EOIBSAA:US:11&Item=350010440844

I plan to ship it to Guru and eventually get it back myself. Can anyone help with funding for these items?

Gakken Compact Vision TV Boy, $99:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Gakken-Compact-Visio...oQQcmdZViewItem

Tsukuda Original (Sega) Othello Multivision (SG-1000 clone with built-in othello game), $0.99 opening bid, $99 buy it now

http://cgi.ebay.com/Tsukuda-Original-Seg...oQQcmdZViewItem

KOEI PasoGo Handheld Game System with three carts, $229

http://cgi.ebay.com/KOEI-PasoGo-Handheld...oQQcmdZViewItem

Casio Loopy with 4 carts, $59 -- incog has the system, are any of the games needed?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Casio-Loopy-4-Cart-G...oQQcmdZViewItem

Epoch Cassette Vision Battle Vader cart, $49 -- Ian Knowles has the system.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Epoch-Cassette-Visio...oQQcmdZViewItem
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/30/07 02:34 PM

Just bought the casio loopy, had 2 needed games and was very cheap.

Very interested in the Othello Multivision and KOEI PasoGo, I thought the PasoGo only had one game made for it!
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/30/07 03:58 PM

Originally Posted By ranger_lennier
The Super Famicom Box carts made it to Guru safely. They seem to have one ROM chip for each game. So, that's seven chips, of which six are definitely dumpable, and one of the chips in the four-game cart Guru's not sure about right now. It's possible they'll just be the same as existing Super Famicom dumps, but we should know soon one way or the other. And, as Guru points out, we don't have a system to dump any BIOS it might have. I'm not sure whether or not this will prevent emulation.


I cant find these on the gurus list... maybe I missed them, have they been dumped?
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/30/07 04:55 PM

Originally Posted By incog
Just bought the casio loopy, had 2 needed games and was very cheap.

Very interested in the Othello Multivision and KOEI PasoGo, I thought the PasoGo only had one game made for it!


I couldn't find much information on the PasoGo, but the sources I read said either three or eight carts. I'm particularly interested in that and the Gakken TV Boy, which is a very obscure early console. The seller also told me he could include a game with it.

Thanks for picking up the Loopy games. Any more spare change? smile
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/30/07 04:58 PM

Originally Posted By incog
Originally Posted By ranger_lennier
The Super Famicom Box carts made it to Guru safely. They seem to have one ROM chip for each game. So, that's seven chips, of which six are definitely dumpable, and one of the chips in the four-game cart Guru's not sure about right now. It's possible they'll just be the same as existing Super Famicom dumps, but we should know soon one way or the other. And, as Guru points out, we don't have a system to dump any BIOS it might have. I'm not sure whether or not this will prevent emulation.


I cant find these on the gurus list... maybe I missed them, have they been dumped?


I haven't actually heard anything more about them since they arrived. I'll have to check up on them sometime if he doesn't mention anything.
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/30/07 05:26 PM

I decided to go ahead and buy the PasaGo. It and the Game Pocket Computer are the only early Japanese handhelds I know of, and I seem to have developed quite an obscure handheld collection in general.

The other console stuff I'm interested in seeing emulated, but I'm not sure I could even manage to play the systems without a Japanese TV. So if someone else wants to buy or contribute, speak up.
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/30/07 06:42 PM

If the Gakken comes with a game I'll stump up £50, want me to paypal it to you so you can ship it direct to the guru?

The only reason I was holding back buying it is because games would be impossible to track down.
Posted By: Justin

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/30/07 07:13 PM

Japanese TVs are NTSC the same as American ones, except for a different skin-tone colour boost.
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/30/07 07:15 PM

Yeah, the seller said he'd include one boxed game for the TV Boy. £50 should just about take care of it, so I went ahead and bought it, and will include it with the rest of the shipment to Guru. I'll let you know once the group of purchases is finalized and you can PayPal me then.

I should probably at least bid on the Othello Multivision, but probably not a lot unless someone else offers funding. The Cassette Vision cart might be kind of expensive for one game. Ian, are you interested in this? Have you looked into getting your system and game dumped?
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/30/07 07:19 PM

Originally Posted By Justin
Japanese TVs are NTSC the same as American ones, except for a different skin-tone colour boost.


Hmmm...the seller has a warning about the older Japanese systems being made for Japanese TV's only, though some people have had success tuning US TV's to channel 96.
Posted By: etabeta78

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/30/07 07:46 PM

I'm short of fundings at the moment. 20 euros (~30$) is the maximum I can send you for the othello to be purchased and sent to guru [1]...

[1] if we don't succeed in the auction I could send anyway the money when needed (especially after half january wink )
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 01/01/08 10:02 PM

Originally Posted By etabeta78
I'm short of fundings at the moment. 20 euros (~30$) is the maximum I can send you for the othello to be purchased and sent to guru [1]...

[1] if we don't succeed in the auction I could send anyway the money when needed (especially after half january wink )


Sure, every bit helps.
Posted By: mellery

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 01/02/08 10:30 PM

I found a programmers reference manual for the TMS1000 series, it has the instruction set and a ton of logic blocks, and block diagrams. Does this have any new information?

http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ti/_dataBooks/TMS1000pgmRef_1975.pdf
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 01/03/08 01:33 AM

Originally Posted By mellery
I found a programmers reference manual for the TMS1000 series, it has the instruction set and a ton of logic blocks, and block diagrams. Does this have any new information?

http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ti/_dataBooks/TMS1000pgmRef_1975.pdf


That was posted here awhile back. You're right that it's very useful for emulation of the chip, though. But the dumping is still a challenge.
Posted By: Stiletto

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 01/04/08 08:44 AM

Originally Posted By ranger_lennier
That was posted here awhile back.


Yep, you must bring your "A" game around these here parts... wink

- Stiletto
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 01/08/08 08:16 PM

Just received my second casio loopy and some carts, 2 were needed. I also recieved a Grandstand Game Player and 3 "carts".

Scan: http://aycu03.webshots.com/image/37802/2003282898618597290_rs.jpg
Cart Scan: http://aycu31.webshots.com/image/40670/2003248739962331489_rs.jpg

I was suprised on how empty the thing is and that the carts are nothing more than lcd screens and an edge connector.

I've also updated my wiki page.
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 01/09/08 03:30 AM

I sniped but lost the Othello Multivision auction. I just sent payment for the Game Pocket Computer, Pasago, and Compact Vision. They should be on their way to Guru.
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 01/10/08 02:03 AM

I also just won an Entex Select-A-Game with a Pinball cart. Wikipedia says the carts have a microcontroller, sort of like the Microvision. Dumping could be difficult.

With all the stuff I've got stockpiled now, I think for awhile I'm going to try concentrating on getting stuff dumped rather than buying more. We'll see how that goes.
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 01/10/08 02:23 AM

Yeah, I keep telling myself that I shoulf focus on getting what I already have dumped but I still check ebay :|

Its like some strange addiction to obscure and obsolete hardware

ps. Sean Riddle just recieved my UK ChannelF but he needs a desoldering station before he can dump it.
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 01/10/08 02:50 AM

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Toshiba-Visicom-RC...oQQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Epoch-Super-Casset...oQQcmdZViewItem

I swear this guy is out to destroy my wallet D:
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 01/10/08 06:15 PM

Just bought another Playdia disc: http://cgi.ebay.com/BANDAI-PLAYDIA-SD-GU...7QQcmdZViewItem

Cheap as chips laugh
Posted By: etabeta78

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 01/11/08 11:15 PM



is there anything dumpable/MESSable in that system? I recently won something somehow similar

http://cgi.ebay.it/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190185269345

but the unit only give power to the "carts", consisting of a small LCD screen. when turned on, it is similar to a primitive (and annoyingly noisy) game&watch... so I doubt there's anything of use... anyway, I keep collecting discs to be converted in CHD and looking for systems that can be of use for the dumping project smile


on a different topic, was there any development about the 64DD dumping argument? I found this video (thanks to lostlevels)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFdB2p3CHWw

which makes the system even more interesting (if you like the warioware series wink )
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 01/12/08 12:18 AM

I don't see anything dumpable in those little LCD-carts. Probably custom discrete logic or something.
Posted By: The Flying Ape

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 01/12/08 04:40 PM

This might be a long shot, but any chance of dumping the 1981 Milton Bradley's game, Dark Tower? I have an excellent working unit with complete board & pieces. I will pay shipping both ways, if it can get dumped with the hope that it can be integrated into MESS.
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 01/12/08 08:35 PM

Originally Posted By The Flying Ape
This might be a long shot, but any chance of dumping the 1981 Milton Bradley's game, Dark Tower? I have an excellent working unit with complete board & pieces. I will pay shipping both ways, if it can get dumped with the hope that it can be integrated into MESS.


Interesting, I'd never heard of the game before.

http://well-of-souls.com/tower/

It's hard to imagine it being added to MESS right now because it has so many physical components. I don't think the artwork system's set up to handle that. But it would be cool to eventually expand the scope of the project. There is probably something to dump on it, and it certainly wouldn't hurt to do it. Does anyone know what electronics are used? It wouldn't surprise me if it uses a microcontroller, which might be difficult to dump.

If no one knows, could you open it up and take pictures?
Posted By: The Flying Ape

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 01/13/08 04:38 PM

I will definitely pursue your request on taking a peek inside as soon as I can.

After seeing some other handheld electronic games being emulated in MESS, I thought it might be possible within the project's scope. The Dark Tower unit is essentially (from top to bottom):

2-character LED display;

3 Lamps;

12-button keypad for input; and

a speaker for the monotone beeps to make sound effects and musical scores;

The lamps function like any other LED -- and LED backlit graphics have been emulated for other games. Their purpose in the Dark Tower unit is to backlight any 1 graphic on its rotating drum (arranged 3 rows by 8 columns, with 1 column empty for startup alignment and lamp test).

I would not suggest emulating the playing board -- just accurately executing its algorithms -- because the Java ports of the unit, IMHO, are reverse-engineered from playing experiences only.

The easy stuff, like the keypad, graphic tiles, and sound WAV files, are already available to integrate.

To quote from Well of Souls page:
'Triumph' was a prototype microprocessor-controlled board game invented by Alan Coleman and Roger Burten in 1979 that was, according to a successful lawsuit, the indirect ancestor of Dark Tower.
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 01/13/08 06:55 PM

I see what you're saying. It's possible the electronic portion would be added. MAME at least has some games that aren't actually playable due to physical components, like Two Minute Drill, which required the player to throw a football.

I wouldn't be surprised if it used a TMS1100 like the Microvision, or another chip in that family. No one's figured out how to dump those yet, though it seems to be theoretically possible.
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 01/14/08 05:37 PM

The Bandai Playdia game came today, SD Gundam Daizukan.

Freshly dumped to CHD smile
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 01/14/08 05:38 PM

Nice. Guru dumped the Pippen BIOS over the weekend.
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 01/14/08 06:28 PM

Awesome news! I have already dumped 9 Pippin CD's only 2 of them are games, 1 is a games catalog and the other are system discs or discs that require the pippins internet connection.

Finding software for the pippin is next to impossible.

Edit: I should have said ORIGINAL software, you can sometimes find pirate copies on ebay.
Posted By: ht1848

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 01/14/08 08:43 PM

I had a reasonable hard time even finding decent screen shots.

This was about the best I could do on just a few minutes with google...

http://homepage.mac.com/markjjohnson/MacStuff/PhotoAlbum11.html

How good is MAME's PPC603 emulation?
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 01/14/08 09:40 PM

Ernesto indicated that real OldWorld PowerMacs (and the Pippen is definitely pre-USB) use some unusual PPC feature that would be painful to emulate. I don't recall the details.
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 01/17/08 03:28 PM

Sean Riddle just got back to me about dumping the UK Varient ChannelF I sent him, turns out the dump matches the one we currently have.

He also says "Do you have VideoBrain stuff? I’m pretty sure it was F8-based, too. If you want me to dump that stuff, just let me know." I thought I read about somebody having a VideoBrain.
Posted By: Duke

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 01/17/08 10:40 PM

Is there anything interesting for the dumping project on that list: http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=34316 ?
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 01/17/08 11:52 PM

Looks like nothing we need on that list.
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 01/18/08 12:44 AM

Just got this email regarding the TMS-1000's

Hmmm, I see a major problem with the TMS-1000’s – the patent says you have to hold the KC input high to get into test mode (which allows you to dump the ROM), but that input isn’t present on any of the pinouts I’ve seen for the chips. Either they only tested before packaging, or there’s some alternate way to set that signal (like holding K1, K2, K4 and K8 high and resetting the chip, or something like that). If they only tested before packaging, then you’d have to decap the chip and try to set that input high without ruining the chip. At that point, you might as well just put it under a microscope and read the fuses directly.

Sean
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 01/18/08 02:20 AM

Originally Posted By incog

He also says "Do you have VideoBrain stuff? I’m pretty sure it was F8-based, too. If you want me to dump that stuff, just let me know." I thought I read about somebody having a VideoBrain.


That would be me. Frank Palazzolo expressed interest in this when I contacted him, but I was expecting to hear back from him by now about sending it out. I need to contact him again.
Posted By: etabeta78

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 01/18/08 07:02 AM

Originally Posted By Duke
Is there anything interesting for the dumping project on that list: http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=34316 ?


this reminds me of something I wanted to ask for a long time: is lynx bios a good dump? it seems it's never been dumped correctly (if possible at all)
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 01/19/08 10:52 PM

My Entex Select-A-Game arrived. It's pretty neat--low resolution certainly, but it has both red and blue lights and interchangeable cartridges. I think it may be missing an overlay holder, though, because I can't figure out what to do with the Space Invaders 2 overlay. I wish I had an overlay for Pinball, because as it is I can't see where the bumpers are.
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 01/19/08 11:35 PM

Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 01/20/08 07:15 PM

Just won this. I also got another update from Sean Riddle regarding the TMS-1000 chips.

"After a little more reading of patents and data sheets, I think the KC input mentioned in the patent was merged with the INIT (reset) input. So it looks like you hold the chip in reset, then serially input the address that you want to display the data from. I think I’m ready to start playing around with a chip and see what I can get going. I checked my miscellaneous parts box, but didn’t find any. I used to have a Microvision, but that was a long time ago and I’m not sure I still have any of the parts. I’ll probably buy a cart off ebay."
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 01/20/08 07:30 PM

Cool! He shouldn't have any problems finding Microvision carts. Some are really cheap on eBay. However, some of the games were also released with an Intel 8021 chip. I haven't heard any ideas about how to dump these.

That Pinball overlay is definitely the right one. If we ever manage to dump these, we'll want high quality scans of all those overlays.
Posted By: ht1848

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 01/21/08 03:53 AM

Incog: I think I can help. Email sent to you and Sean.
Posted By: mellery

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 01/21/08 02:53 PM

I also have a TMS1000, and a TMS1400 if those would help
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 01/21/08 11:55 PM

I'm sure he'll want to experiment with something disposable first, like a Microvision Blockbuster cart, the really common pack-in game.
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 01/22/08 08:02 PM

So the Pippin @world came today and I have a curse with these machines frown

Taking them apart is a nightmare, they screw the inside of the drivetray from the inside and all the other screws are on the outside, so to get the case off you either have to break it or have the ability to phase through matter mad

So yeah, £105 wasted... thats the 2nd pippin ive broken now in the same way... I didnt plan on it the plastic is just very brittle.

Anyway, this Pippin looks to have Bios ver 1.2 according to this.

Rom board scan

2 down, 3 to go
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 01/22/08 09:22 PM

Strangely some good has come of me breaking the Pippin... I decided to investigate what was rattling around inside the cd drive and found something i wasnt expecting...

big-ass scan

A socketed eprom! (which i just dumped :D)

edit: just desoldered the apple pippin atmark cddrive and the dump is the same
Posted By: etabeta78

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 01/23/08 01:26 PM

hi, I noticed this auction

http://cgi.ebay.it/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300189341627

for a wanted item: it is a PC-9801 add-on to play PC-FX games. I can give around 70$ to buy this, but I cannot give more at this point of the month and it would be better to ship it directly to someone which would be able to dump it[1] and/or use it for tests (in view of a future inclusion in MESS)

therefore, I would like to have other opinions on the following:

1. is it worth the money (especially quite expensive shipping)?
2. is there any volunteer in receiving the item and filling in the money gap (mostly for shipping)?

otherwise, I'll keep looking for interesting stuff (I've probably won an Hartung Game Master, but I'll wait for the thing to arrive before telling it for sure... in that case I would be able to finally contribute to the MESS dumping project! smile )

[1] even if according to Arbee, it probably have not that much to be dumped...
Quote:
In this case I strongly doubt there's anything to dump other than the included media (it probably loads the PC-98 BIOS off the included CD from the looks of things).



EDIT: actually I saw that ranger_lennier has a Game Master as well, but the one I won is a French variant (by VideoJet) and the cart I will receive could be different by the ones he have...
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 02/12/08 04:13 PM

nice to see the last lot of undumped mess stuff made it to he guru ok smile

http://www.mameworld.net/gurudumps/
Posted By: Guru

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 02/12/08 09:29 PM

Ah! So this is where all of you MESS wierdo's hang out who buy that rare console crap for me to dump and make my life hell. OK, I'm watching you :-D

Quick update on the recent console stuff...
The Gakken has nothing in it except a 6847, one 2k ram and some logic. The cart contains only 1 chip, a MC6801 microcontroller. It's the main CPU + ROM + RAM. I have no idea how to dump it or even if it's possible. It has 4k maskROM, but at $300 per chip decapping isn't feasible.

The Koei Pasago is definitely do-able. The main unit doesn't have much in it except a couple of RAMs and a Vadem VG230 (all-in-1 PC on a chip, V30/8086 compatible + extras). All surface mounted stuff. A very detailed 235 page pdf is available http://www.amphus.com/chips/pdf/230dm.pdf

The cart doesn't have much in it and is all surface mounted too. There's one smt ROM, and space for a 62256 SRAM and one other chip, but neither of those are populated. We've got 3 carts.
Someone may want to work on the Vadem VG230 because it will soon have some software to run on it :-)


Guru
Posted By: judge

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 02/12/08 10:25 PM

Fyi, there is some work happening on the epoch game pocket computer front. The bios has recently been dumped. I'm tryiing to come up with a cpu core now.
Posted By: etabeta78

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 02/12/08 11:40 PM

is any of the BIOS of other epoch consoles available outside japan? takeda's emulators would have a bit more of worldwide success if those would surface...
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 02/13/08 04:38 AM

Yes, that's us alright. smile

That's weird that the Gakken just uses microcontrollers in the carts. There are some old portables that do that, like the Microvision, but the closest thing to a console I knew of is the Telstar Arcade, and even that's just a souped up pong system.

It turns out the PasaGo is from 1996, which is more recent than I was expecting.

We got another Block Maze cart with the Game Pocket Computer rather than the needed Astro Bomber pictured with the auction. frown I'm contacting the seller about it.

Originally Posted By Guru
Ah! So this is where all of you MESS wierdo's hang out who buy that rare console crap for me to dump and make my life hell. OK, I'm watching you :-D

Quick update on the recent console stuff...
The Gakken has nothing in it except a 6847, one 2k ram and some logic. The cart contains only 1 chip, a MC6801 microcontroller. It's the main CPU + ROM + RAM. I have no idea how to dump it or even if it's possible. It has 4k maskROM, but at $300 per chip decapping isn't feasible.

The Koei Pasago is definitely do-able. The main unit doesn't have much in it except a couple of RAMs and a Vadem VG230 (all-in-1 PC on a chip, V30/8086 compatible + extras). All surface mounted stuff. A very detailed 235 page pdf is available http://www.amphus.com/chips/pdf/230dm.pdf

The cart doesn't have much in it and is all surface mounted too. There's one smt ROM, and space for a 62256 SRAM and one other chip, but neither of those are populated. We've got 3 carts.
Someone may want to work on the Vadem VG230 because it will soon have some software to run on it :-)


Guru
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 02/13/08 04:40 AM

Originally Posted By etabeta78
is any of the BIOS of other epoch consoles available outside japan? takeda's emulators would have a bit more of worldwide success if those would surface...


I'm curious about his stuff as well. From the sceenshots, obviously he has some interesting dumps. Has anyone asked him about them? I could send an e-mail to see if he'll share. Maybe the offer of Game Pocket Computer dumps will encourage him.
Posted By: Firewave

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 02/13/08 01:00 PM

Speaking about interesting dumps/collections. What about this?

http://users.rcn.com/slapdash/VidHaves.htm

I guess it's already known and it's mostly unreadable anyways.
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 02/14/08 03:12 AM

Update: The seller admitted to the mistake with the carts, and Astro Bomber will hopefully be on the way soon.
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 02/14/08 03:14 AM

Originally Posted By ranger_lennier
Update: The seller admitted to the mistake with the carts, and Astro Bomber will hopefully be on the way soon.


Awesome! I've dealt with this seller before and he has always been very good.
Posted By: etabeta78

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 02/14/08 07:59 AM

in the meanwhile, I have secured a few carts for supervision, megaduck, game master & gamate (+ a gamate and a game master consoles)

around march/april I shall be able to post pics of these things, to contact f205v to see if he can manage to dump some of them and to create a list on mess wiki...
Posted By: judge

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 02/14/08 11:41 AM

omg, gamate \o/
Posted By: etabeta78

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 02/14/08 12:49 PM

bloody expensive thing, btw, and absolutely not worth its value these days...

the unit I've just received could have some display minor problem (according to the seller), but I still have to test it and I'm not sure when I will.

same for the game master, but at least I was able to find carts (e.g. a Bubble Boy ranger_lennier didn't have) for a fifth of the price of the gamate one...
Posted By: judge

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 02/16/08 09:01 PM

For all you Epoch Game Pocket Computer Fans, some WIP thingies:



For some reason the texts do not display properly yet frown

Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 02/16/08 10:17 PM

Neat! It reminds me just how low-res this thing is. (Though it's downright detailed compared to the Microvision.)
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 02/16/08 11:02 PM

Awesome smile
Posted By: Guru

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 02/16/08 11:54 PM

Originally Posted By judge
For all you Epoch Game Pocket Computer Fans, some WIP thingies:



For some reason the texts do not display properly yet frown



Want me to scan the Epoch thingy? It could be nice to have that as artwork with the game playing in the middle :-)

Not sure if it's already done, but the same thing should be done for other handhelds that are easily scanned, like GB/GBA etc


Guru
Posted By: Vas Crabb

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 02/17/08 01:47 AM

There is a MESS artwork project, with scans of various Gameboys and TI things. I can't remember where it's located, though.
Posted By: ht1848

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 02/17/08 04:45 AM

Welcome to the thread Guru.

There is some art work included in MESS but here is the rest at Mr.Do's site.

http://www.mameworld.net/mrdo/mess_artwork.html
Posted By: judge

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 02/17/08 01:40 PM

Originally Posted By judge
For all you Epoch Game Pocket Computer Fans, some WIP thingies:



For some reason the texts do not display properly yet frown



One simple cpu core fix later:



Next target: get it to boot a cartridge..

Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 02/17/08 05:44 PM

fantastic! laugh
Posted By: etabeta78

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 02/17/08 06:23 PM

really great work, judge! even if only 5 carts were produced, it's really nice to have it emulated before all consoles dies
Posted By: judge

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 02/17/08 10:24 PM

That's gonna be a >700kb patch for the cpu core, btw. Hehehe.

Posted By: etabeta78

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 02/18/08 09:33 AM

was it missing that many features? its variations were used as sound CPU in many arcade systems already emulated MAME and there aren't lot of issues with those...

it's really amazing the way different systems can use in completely different ways a CPU shocked
Posted By: judge

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 02/18/08 10:22 AM

The instruction set layout is different, cycle counts are different, register set is different, some instructions are implemented differently.

Especially the instruction set and cycle count differences take up most of that patch.
Posted By: judge

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 02/18/08 07:50 PM

Graphics bugs fixed, cartridge loading working. Only thing missing now seems to be sound smile

Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 02/18/08 08:09 PM

That thing *has* sound? smile
Posted By: Guru

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 02/19/08 05:21 PM

it's just bleeps and blips from memory, and maybe a simple tune or two made from bleeps and blips :-D
Posted By: judge

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 02/19/08 05:35 PM

Indeed. MESS just did those bleeps too laugh

Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 02/19/08 05:42 PM

Awesome smile
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 02/19/08 06:40 PM

will this make mess the first emulator for this system?

great work!
Posted By: etabeta78

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 02/19/08 08:42 PM

to my knowledge yes. takeda only emulated the Super Cassette Vision (which could be MESSable as well with the new core I guess, if dumps would surface... before or later)
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 02/25/08 05:45 PM

Just cracked open a Commodore 64 tv-game with 30 games on it.

PCB Scan
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 02/25/08 05:50 PM

Interesting - the one chip might be a flash ROM, but the rest of it's blobs like you'd expect.
Posted By: Lord Nightmare

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 02/26/08 03:47 PM

EDIT: Hey wait a second... Incog, is that an NTSC one or a PAL one? If its the PAL "DTV2/3" one, the "DTV1" description below is inaccurate for it, but the description below that should be correct.
EDIT2: Its an NTSC one, for sure.

That may be the NTSC "DTV1" which has a few bugs in the c64 timing, and doesn't properly handle a number of the 6510/6502 undocumented opcodes. It also has the LUMA DAC with the wrong value resistors and hence produces a way-too-dim picture unless you manually replace the resistors in the DAC, with the revision C64A1 (as opposed to revision C64A, which had 3 extra wires due to some inadvertently omitted traces which were corrected on revision C64A1) mainboard.

The large blob is the DTV1 ASIC (origianlly called 'JSTICK64'), designed by Jeri Ellisworth.
The small blob is a 2MB OKI-made mask rom, afaik it has not been fully dumped yet, and more than one version may exist. It can be dumped via IEC or being bit-banged out an I/O line, or even displayed to screen if you feel like retyping 2 megs of data. It requires a program to be written (in c64 basic) to bankswitch it and do the bit banging.
The TFP chip which looks like flash is actually 128K of SRAM.

See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C64_Direct-to-TV
http://picobay.com/dtv_wiki/index.php?title=DTV_Version_1

We still need an unhacked/unreflashed DTV2/3 (PAL) to get a dump of the original flashrom too (The PAL DTV uses a flash rom as opposed to a mask rom). The NTSC mask rom and the PAL flash rom contents are quite different. The flashrom is a surface mounted AT47BV161T which is an older, buggier (byte write mode only SOMETIMES works), fewer-erases-until-errors-happen version of the AT49BV161T and AT49BV163A. The AT47BV161T was ONLY used on the DTV and a few other products, and was never released to the public, unlike the latter two products.
I'm sure Guru can handle it.
DTV2 (PAL) has a bug in the blitter which was fixed on DTV3 (PAL)

See:
http://picobay.com/dtv_wiki/index.php?title=DTV_Version_2/3

I have one of the 'Hummer' DTV units, unmodded, available for dumping. Uses an AT49BV163A flash chip. Again, Guru can handle these.

See:
http://picobay.com/dtv_wiki/index.php?title=Hummer

LN
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/06/08 03:15 AM

Good news--all five Epoch Game Pocket Computer games have now been dumped! And for those interested, the system's also got a good website in development by Chris Covell, the guy who dumped the BIOS.

http://www.disgruntleddesigner.com/chrisc/GamePokekon/
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/06/08 02:21 PM

Great news on the Epoch handheld laugh

I just got a Videomaster Star Chess through the post.

PCB Scan


Check out the graphics on this baby.

The Emerson Arcadia 2001 star chess game rom is 4k, this console has 2 6801's @ 2k internal rom each so its probably safe to say that the game is stored in the 6801's. Does anybody have a method of dumping these?
Posted By: Guru

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/06/08 06:59 PM

6801S has 2k ROM
6801V has 4k ROM

They are code compatible with the 6800 series of CPUs. The 6801 is a ROM version of the 6803 from what I read.
A somewhat detailed datasheet is here....
http://www.mameworld.net/gurudumps/temp/hd6801v.pdf

Unfortunately there's no mention of the ROM and how to read/access it, or even if there's a protection bit.

The same 6801V's are used in the carts for the Gakken TV Boy handheld I have.




Guru
Posted By: Robbbert

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/06/08 10:46 PM

You need to go to guru's home page before pasting the link in your browser.

I looked in my Motorola 8-bit Microprocessor and Pheripheral Data Book, but for the 6801 I need to read the Microcomputer Data Book, which of course, I don't have.

It does list the 6803E though, in excrutiating detail - including the differences to the 6801.

Now, if only I had a scanner...
Posted By: Lord Nightmare

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/07/08 03:48 AM

look at the scan: they're not 6801s, they're 6810s, 128*8 128 byte SRAM.

The cpu/MCU however, looks to be an mc680? (last digit is unclear but is either a 2 or a 3?)
Theres also a 40pin ?custom? at the right. The code is likely all on the MCU which means this is a target for decapping.
Unless it is a 6801U4 (or u3/u2/u1) in which case theres a known security hole for dumping it. Ask ogoun.

LN
Posted By: Guru

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/08/08 07:02 AM

Looks like the chip top left is an 8080? It says SC80801P??

But yeah, that pic sucks dog's balls. If it was a scan, you need to do some research on how to scan things properly :-D
i.e. Wipe the crap/dust off all of the chips, adjust threshold, color balance, brightness/contrast to make it clear, sharp and bright.

Please have a look at the DIP40 chips and tell us what the numbers are.





Guru
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/08/08 05:29 PM

Originally Posted By Guru

The Koei Pasago is definitely do-able. The main unit doesn't have much in it except a couple of RAMs and a Vadem VG230 (all-in-1 PC on a chip, V30/8086 compatible + extras). All surface mounted stuff. A very detailed 235 page pdf is available http://www.amphus.com/chips/pdf/230dm.pdf

The cart doesn't have much in it and is all surface mounted too. There's one smt ROM, and space for a 62256 SRAM and one other chip, but neither of those are populated. We've got 3 carts.
Someone may want to work on the Vadem VG230 because it will soon have some software to run on it :-)


Guru's dumped one of the carts now. Is anyone able to check these? Guru says it should be DOS compatible, but I couldn't get it to run in DOSBOX. It could just be the display and such. Send a PM if you're interested.
Posted By: Guru

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/08/08 09:03 PM

I never said it would run on a PC in a DOS Box. That would be impossible. The image contains a BIOS too (check first 64k). It will need emulation of the Vadem VG230 chip with all of it's I/O and add-on peripherals to run. The chip is a (simple) all-in-one-PC-on-a-chip.





Guru
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/08/08 09:08 PM

I didn't really expect it to work on a PC, but that's as much testing as I'm able to do.
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/11/08 01:56 AM

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/GAMATE-LCD-bit-cor...ksid=p1638.m124

Are these needed?
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/12/08 02:34 AM

Yes, all three Gamate games are needed. I could bid on it, but if anyone closer is interested, speak up.
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/13/08 06:00 PM

Originally Posted By ranger_lennier
Yes, all three Gamate games are needed. I could bid on it, but if anyone closer is interested, speak up.


right now im bidding on this and this.

I also recently won this auction, http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=280205843229&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT&ih=018

so feel free to fire a bid off at the gamate games, ive got my hands full here heh

ps. I hate it when they wont sell the games without the console... this will be my 3rd casio loopy
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/14/08 02:59 AM

Just been on a Pippin shopping spree, its very rare these come up so i had to grab them.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=260218745067&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT&ih=016
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=260218746602&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT&ih=016
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=260218746609&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT&ih=016
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=280205843229&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT&ih=018
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=250223909232&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT&ih=015

my poor wallet frown
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/15/08 03:49 AM

I'm going to snipe the Gamate carts, with some help from etabeta78. I've got a pretty good collection of them now, and I haven't found much interesting lately. (I bought one more R-Zone cart...woo-hoo.) Does anyone know what's inside of a Gamate cart? It's cased in a thin plastic card that's melded together.

I noticed that PeT added a Hartung Game Master driver. Does MESSDev have access to ROM's for this? I'm wondering if any games still need to be dumped. I have several carts for the system.

incog, I feel your pain with multiple systems. I've got three Game Pocket Computers now, and don't get me started on the R-Zone. I think when I get some stuff back from Guru I may need to have a huge eBay sale.

Posted By: Justin

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/15/08 05:17 AM

MESSDEV has access to the following Game Master dumps:

bubble_boy.bin
continental_galaxy.bin
dungeon_adventure.bin
falling_block.bin
go_bang.bin
hyper_space.bin
kung_fu.bin
pin_ball.bin
space_castle.bin
tennis_master.bin
urban_champion.bin
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/15/08 05:48 PM

OK, still some missing dumps according to this list:

http://www.pelikonepeijoonit.net/gamemstr.txt

But unfortunately we haven't already collected any of them.
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/17/08 06:01 PM

Hartung Game Master removed from the wanted list! laugh

I didnt win the auctions on the Amstrad Mega PC (I've already dumped the rarer upgraded Amstrad Mega Plus) or the Casio Loopy with the 2 needed carts, somebody sniped both of them off me, no worries though.

http://mess.toseciso.org/people:incog updated hugely smile
Posted By: Guru

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/17/08 08:39 PM

Originally Posted By Guru
Looks like the chip top left is an 8080? It says SC80801P??

But yeah, that pic sucks dog's balls. If it was a scan, you need to do some research on how to scan things properly :-D
i.e. Wipe the crap/dust off all of the chips, adjust threshold, color balance, brightness/contrast to make it clear, sharp and bright.

Please have a look at the DIP40 chips and tell us what the numbers are.



so, are we going to get an update on those chips?



Guru
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/17/08 09:20 PM

Sorry, my scanner is very shit and some of the markings on the pcb look like somebody went at them with sandpaper (why would they do that?) so this will have to do:

Code:
VIDEOMASTER STAR CHESS PCB

,-----------------------------------------------.
|   ____________      ___     _____             |
|  | SC80801P   |    |RCA|   |BLANK|    ______  |
|  |   7841     |    '---'   '-----'   |  z F | |
|  '------------'                      |  N E | |
|                     ___              |  A R | |
|   ____________     |RCA|             |7   R | |
|  |  MC6802P   |    '---'             |8 2 A | |
|  |  3T7837    |                      |3 H N | |
|  '------------'                      |9 0 T | |
|                                      |  7 I | |
|    ---------    ________             |  2   | |
|   |MCM6810P |  |SN4LS03N|            |  E   | |
|   |  7834   |  |__7749__|            '------' |
|   '---------'   ________                      |
|                |SN4LS03N|      ---------      |
|                |__7749__|     |MCM6810P |     |
|                 _________     |  7834   |     |
|                |SN74L02ND|    '---------'     |
|                |___7815__|                    |
|                                               |
|                                               |
|                                      ___      |
|                                     |L  |     |
|                                     |M  |     |
|                                     |1 /|     |
|             4.433613                |8 7|     |
|                KDS                  |8 5|     |
|                                     |9 2|     |
|                                     |N  |     |
|                                     '---'     |
'_______________________________________________'

RCA = RCA CDP1856D 653

BLANK = MARKINGS COMPLETELY REMOVED


It sure is hard trying to keep everything to scale in a monospace font.
Posted By: MooglyGuy

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/17/08 10:33 PM

Originally Posted By incog
some of the markings on the pcb look like somebody went at them with sandpaper (why would they do that?)


Standard operating procedure for "protection".
Posted By: Lord Nightmare

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/17/08 10:37 PM

74LS03 = quad 2 input nor gate (open collector)
74L02 = quad 2 input nor gate
MCM6810P = ?512 byte? SRAM
MC6802P = Processor with optional internal ram, no internal rom
SC80801P = ?video chip?
Ferranti zNA 2HO72E = asic, possibly contains the rom for the mc6802
Blank = possibly contains the rom for the 6802
RCA = ? (need the CDxxxx numbers for these two)
LM1889 = video modulator

LN
Posted By: Stiletto

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/18/08 03:31 AM

Originally Posted By Lord Nightmare
RCA = ? (need the CDxxxx numbers for these two


You mean, "RCA = RCA CDP1856D 653"?
*awaits the "D'oh!"*

BTW, SC80801P sounds like a challenge. Will possibly need a decap to provide more info, other than a possible manufacturer in Motorola (Google/pcb scan) or Philips/Signetics (going by chip prefix).

- Stiletto
Posted By: judge

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/18/08 07:19 AM

Originally Posted By Stiletto
Originally Posted By Lord Nightmare
RCA = ? (need the CDxxxx numbers for these two


You mean, "RCA = RCA CDP1856D 653"?
*awaits the "D'oh!"*


Hehe

Originally Posted By Stiletto
BTW, SC80801P sounds like a challenge. Will possibly need a decap to provide more info, other than a possible manufacturer in Motorola (Google/pcb scan) or Philips/Signetics (going by chip prefix).


Or it could just be short for Star Chess and some year/date/version indication.
Posted By: Stiletto

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/18/08 07:36 AM

Originally Posted By judge

Or it could just be short for Star Chess and some year/date/version indication.


Ah, good. In that case, it could be "SC80"+"801P"
... and "801P" could be MC6801. Would work date wise, at least. And it goes along with the other chips. So, pre-programmed MC6801-based microcontroller or something?
Posted By: judge

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/18/08 07:55 AM

Originally Posted By Stiletto
Originally Posted By judge

Or it could just be short for Star Chess and some year/date/version indication.


Ah, good. In that case, it could be "SC80"+"801P"
... and "801P" could be MC6801. Would work date wise, at least. And it goes along with the other chips. So, pre-programmed MC6801-based microcontroller or something?


Ah no, it's not a date. There's also a 7841 marked on that chip.

It looks like it's some kind of standard product from Motorola. You can find several references to stores selling that part, but no information on what it is frown
Posted By: Guru

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/18/08 08:04 AM

incog: that ascii diagram is exactly what we want. PCB scans are highly over-rated :-)

I did some research on SC and found it is used by a company called 'Silan Semiconductors'. They also go by Hangzhou Silan Microelectronics Company Ltd. Hangzhou, China
http://www.silan.com.cn/include/default.aspx
Probably not them though as it seems like its a relatively new company.

When searching 'SC80801P' it comes up as being manufactured by Motorola. And in fact, that chip comes up here....
http://old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?c=1116&st=2
for that same(?) chess thing as a co-processor. The info looks to have been put there by amateurs though because the CPU is clearly wrong (it's surely the 6802) and the RAM is listed as unknown, and it is definitely the 6810. The 6802/6810 combo was used in the early Bally/Stern and Williams pinball machines.



Posted By: Stiletto

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/18/08 08:40 AM

Originally Posted By judge
Originally Posted By Stiletto
Originally Posted By judge

Or it could just be short for Star Chess and some year/date/version indication.


Ah, good. In that case, it could be "SC80"+"801P"
... and "801P" could be MC6801. Would work date wise, at least. And it goes along with the other chips. So, pre-programmed MC6801-based microcontroller or something?


Ah no, it's not a date. There's also a 7841 marked on that chip.

It looks like it's some kind of standard product from Motorola. You can find several references to stores selling that part, but no information on what it is frown


The kind of sites that come up listing the chip as available are also the kind of sites that sell scavenged chips from PCBs.

I've been thinking about it, and I think I'm going to be right. smile

It's another processor, and it's proprietary to games that play the "Star Chess" game. It _is_ 1979-1980 that we're talking about here. Just a few steps beyond Pong-on-a-chip.

There are a lot of versions of MC6801 though. MC6801P1 is from 83 or so according to the datasheets (take copyright date, subtract 1-2 years) and it's DIP40 like the chip in incog's PCB scan.

And yes, Guru, that's the only other site found that bothers talking about SC80801P. smile

I would say your prefix list is off the mark for the 70's-early 80's, Guru, try Sangmeister's: http://www.mydarc.de/dj7oh/startfrae.htm

But given all the other official Motorola chips, it's likely to be Motorola too. SC for Star Chess, I like it.
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/19/08 11:13 PM

4 factory sealed fully boxed pippin discs landed on my doorstep today laugh
Posted By: F1ReB4LL

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/24/08 05:46 PM

http://cgi.ebay.com/MEMOREX-MD-2500-VIS-...0803020832a5761 - pretty cheap VIS system.
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/25/08 01:30 AM

Yeah, I remember reading about this before. It would be good to get archived, but there doesn't seem to be much of anything included with it (I don't even see a controller). This site seems to have a lot of stuff available, though.

http://www.oldsoftware.com/VIS.html
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/25/08 02:17 AM

Originally Posted By ranger_lennier
Yeah, I remember reading about this before. It would be good to get archived, but there doesn't seem to be much of anything included with it (I don't even see a controller). This site seems to have a lot of stuff available, though.

http://www.oldsoftware.com/VIS.html


cowering has one of these and some software, he's mess friendly too smile
Posted By: F1ReB4LL

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/25/08 04:17 PM

Originally Posted By ranger_lennier
Yeah, I remember reading about this before. It would be good to get archived, but there doesn't seem to be much of anything included with it (I don't even see a controller).


Yes, it's untested, but the seller claims it powers up. This one is pretty cheap to be ruined for dumping.

Originally Posted By http://vgcl.rfgeneration.com/pg90-vis.htm
Approximately 11,000 units were actually sold (total for both models). Expect to pay about $150 USD for a bare console, $225 USD or so for a CIB unit.


And this one is just $9.99...
Posted By: robcfg

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/26/08 04:03 PM

Hi!

I'm new here, so I'd like to ask a few questions.

I have dumped the Amstrad Notebook NC200 Rom, where or who should I send it to?

I've done also skins for the NC100 and for one of its clones, the Walther ES210 (german clone by Nakajima), the question is quite the same.

As soon as I can I'll get the rom of the ES210 dumped (essentially the machine is the same but the software quite different).

Can I declare the Es210 as clone of the nc100 or should I contact the driver author?

Thank you!
Posted By: Lord Nightmare

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/26/08 05:40 PM

send to Nathan, his email is on the mess contact page.
Posted By: robcfg

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/27/08 04:14 PM

Originally Posted By Lord Nightmare
send to Nathan, his email is on the mess contact page.


Thank you very much!
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/29/08 06:45 PM

Originally Posted By F1ReB4LL
Originally Posted By ranger_lennier
Yeah, I remember reading about this before. It would be good to get archived, but there doesn't seem to be much of anything included with it (I don't even see a controller).


Yes, it's untested, but the seller claims it powers up. This one is pretty cheap to be ruined for dumping.

Originally Posted By http://vgcl.rfgeneration.com/pg90-vis.htm
Approximately 11,000 units were actually sold (total for both models). Expect to pay about $150 USD for a bare console, $225 USD or so for a CIB unit.


And this one is just $9.99...


You're right, it is pretty cheap. So, I went ahead and bought it. I may pick up some software separately later. I should see what Cowering already has.
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/29/08 06:50 PM

The japan-games eBay seller has put up a bunch of items for auction, with starting prices of $.01. I think we should make a bid for some of this stuff--I find the Epoch Cassette Vision carts particularly interesting. There are also some Super Cassette Vision carts (apparently dumped but unavailable) and the Japanese version of the RCA Studio II. Does anyone else see something interesting?

http://myworld.ebay.com/japan-games
Posted By: judge

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/29/08 07:49 PM

The cassette vision unit itself, afaik there's a bios in there somewhere
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/29/08 08:50 PM

Ian Knowles has a Cassette Vision Jr., which is software compatible with the Cassette Vision. I'm not sure if the BIOS would be any different.
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/30/08 02:26 AM

Originally Posted By ranger_lennier
The japan-games eBay seller has put up a bunch of items for auction, with starting prices of $.01. I think we should make a bid for some of this stuff--I find the Epoch Cassette Vision carts particularly interesting. There are also some Super Cassette Vision carts (apparently dumped but unavailable) and the Japanese version of the RCA Studio II. Does anyone else see something interesting?

http://myworld.ebay.com/japan-games


Eep! japan-games has his store set up so it always keeps user-ids private so just to let you know a few days ago i made a bid on ALL the pippin stuff and the bandia playdia bundled with discs, they had 9days and 10 hours to go so I made the bids high. (I hope you havent been bidding against me frown )

Also if you want to see something rare check these out:

http://cgi.ebay.com/RARE-ROMTEC-COLORVIS...7QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/RARE-ROMTEC-COLORVIS...7QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/RARE-ROMTEC-COLORVIS...7QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/RARE-ROMTEC-COLORVIS...7QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/RARE-ROMTEC-COLORVIS...7QQcmdZViewItem
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/30/08 03:51 AM

No, I haven't placed any bids yet. (I almost always snipe anyway.)

I hadn't heard of the Colorvision before. It looks like there's nothing dumpable in the cartridges--they switch the connections within the console. The system itself might have something to dump.

http://www.handheldmuseum.com/Romtec/Colorvision.htm
Posted By: Duke

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/30/08 11:08 AM

The cartridges would be needed for scanning though.
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/30/08 01:01 PM

Originally Posted By ranger_lennier
No, I haven't placed any bids yet. (I almost always snipe anyway.)

I hadn't heard of the Colorvision before. It looks like there's nothing dumpable in the cartridges--they switch the connections within the console. The system itself might have something to dump.

http://www.handheldmuseum.com/Romtec/Colorvision.htm


The Grandstand Game Player has similar hardware, the carts are nothing more than lcd screens and contacts and all the main unit contains is an xtal and epoxy blob. Kind of a let down really.
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/30/08 07:57 PM

Just bought up 3 more playdia discs and added a bunch of ascii art to go along with the pcb scans on the wiki, with lots of xtal and chip info laugh

http://mess.toseciso.org/people:incog
Posted By: ht1848

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/03/08 09:57 PM

Is this a CPS Changer on ebay?

Or is that arcade (ala MAME)? I don't know my CPS changer games but it looks like that is a MESS target. SSF2turbo is lonely.

Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/03/08 09:58 PM

Arcade. CPS Changer connects to TV, not JAMMA smile
Posted By: ht1848

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/03/08 10:01 PM

damn. Has anyone even seen one for sale? The must be more rare than a cow.

Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/03/08 10:03 PM

It's very rare. Supposedly that one Japanese emulator dev has at least some of the remaining dumps, but he's not sharing.
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/03/08 11:12 PM

If you see any, give me a bell... I'll be happy to chip in. Been looking for these for a while now.
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/06/08 04:44 AM

The japan-games auctions are nearing an end. I've got my eye on the PasoGo (has different carts than I got), Cassette Vision, Super Cassette Vision, and Visicom auctions. I won't be placing any huge bids, though.

Does anyone know what FM Towns and PC-FX dumps are available? I haven't looked into these systems too closely.
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/06/08 05:01 AM

Mednafen would know for sure, but I think all the known PC-FX games are dumped (there are maybe 15 or 20 total).
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/06/08 03:23 PM

Originally Posted By R. Belmont
Mednafen would know for sure, but I think all the known PC-FX games are dumped (there are maybe 15 or 20 total).


I thought the PC-FX had hundreds of games, all mostly porn.
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/06/08 03:39 PM

AFAIK there are less than 25, all mostly porn.
Posted By: F1ReB4LL

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/06/08 05:34 PM

~80, actually, mostly JRPGs (only a few hentai/pr0n games) - http://www.necstasy.net/
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/06/08 05:39 PM

Guru asked me about the Famicom Box for sale on eBay. It's not the same as the Super Famicom Box we got carts for earlier, of course. We'd originally speculated that it just switched between standard Famicom carts and had no BIOS (unless I'm thinking about something different, couldn't find the post), but researching it, this does seem more interesting than that. It uses specially shaped carts, and must have some sort of BIOS to switch between the games. This page has great details:

http://www.tripoint.org/kevtris/mappers/famicombox/index.html

Here's the auction--ending in about 10 hours, I'm afraid.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Nintendo-Sharp-Famic...1QQcmdZViewItem

Shipping would be rather expensive. Is anyone willing to help pay for this? The other auctions I mentioned could be rather expensive for me if I win them.

Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/06/08 07:30 PM

The note on the nintendo dumping page on the wiki says "Famicom Box (AN-560 A) (Hotel Famicom system that fits up to 15 games) &#8592; kevtris has one of these and has dumped the rom, just ask him for it. it contains a menu program. The CICs on this unit have not been reverse engineered yet, and it uses a whole other CIC for coin timing alone!".

I'll ask kevtris about this now on irc, I no idea if the dump still exists or was lost.

Im in for £100 though, to be spent on anything. Give me a bell when you need it, ive got a few of my own auctions of babysit heh.

Edit, holy shit I just reread your other comment and you said the pasogo has even more carts? Jut last year I was convinced it only had 1 haha. Any Idea how many carts that thing has?
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/06/08 08:25 PM

BTW, the "MESS Drivers Needed" lists a Bondwell BW2 - there's an uncredited[1] driver in SVN at least that boots and shows stuff, although it doesn't POST cleanly and I can't find a disk for it that the driver will accept (system floppies in 2 different formats are relatively easy to find for that system).

ETA: [1] Looks like Nathan and Curt Coder. Nice work guys.

Anyone working on the follow-on BW12/14? It seems generally similar except it uses an NEC765 disc controller and MC6845 CRTC for video.
Posted By: Justin

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/06/08 08:49 PM

Nathan was just committing it on behalf of Tomas Karlsson, who's credited in messnew.txt (although Curt Coder did do a bunch of work on it too).

Tomas is working on the BW 12/14 as well.
Posted By: Duke

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/06/08 08:49 PM

The initial driver is from Tomas Karlsson, Curt Coder added the LCD chip emulation (as written in messnew.txt).
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/06/08 09:10 PM

Well, still nice work. Gorgeous code too.
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/06/08 11:48 PM

Thanks for noticing that. I'd rather not deal with buying and shipping the Famicom Box if I can avoid it. It's rather large.

The donation will definitely help. I upped a few of my snipes. I'll know in about four hours what I won.

I'm not sure how many Pasago carts there are--at least six it would appear. One website I saw thought there might be eight carts, but I don't consider that particularly reliable.



Originally Posted By incog
The note on the nintendo dumping page on the wiki says "Famicom Box (AN-560 A) (Hotel Famicom system that fits up to 15 games) &#8592; kevtris has one of these and has dumped the rom, just ask him for it. it contains a menu program. The CICs on this unit have not been reverse engineered yet, and it uses a whole other CIC for coin timing alone!".

I'll ask kevtris about this now on irc, I no idea if the dump still exists or was lost.

Im in for £100 though, to be spent on anything. Give me a bell when you need it, ive got a few of my own auctions of babysit heh.

Edit, holy shit I just reread your other comment and you said the pasogo has even more carts? Jut last year I was convinced it only had 1 haha. Any Idea how many carts that thing has?
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/07/08 04:38 AM

And the results are in! I won the auctions for the PasoGo and Visicom. I also picked up a Super Cassette Vision cart and a collection of six Cassette Vision carts (amazingly, only $30 for the latter). I lost the auctions for the Cassette Vision and Super Cassette Vision systems, but I'm not overly concerned because Ian Knowles has a version of each of those (though I'd be interested to see if the bios are any different). I also went ahead and picked up one of those Pocket Dream systems that had been mentioned here. Guru said he figured it had some surface-mounted ROMs.

All in all, I'm pretty pleased. I hope we can make some progress on dumping the Epoch systems now. The Cassette Vision seems like one of the more important consoles that are still unemulated.
Posted By: etabeta78

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/07/08 05:03 AM

I bought a pocket dream as well (it's what I mentioned before wink ) hope you haven't paid too much...

anyway I'll make a wiki page with my possessions next week (finally back to italy to sort out my new gadgets :P )
Posted By: Guru

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/07/08 11:28 AM

Good work on the bidding.
Don't forget if there's something BIG that is bought only for dumping, to save on postage it can go to my Japanese contact and he can send just the relevant bits and pieces here via surface in a big box with other PCBs that are shipped to me (about once every 2-3 months, contact me for details when the time comes).
That goes for any of the regular contributors wanting to buy items in Japan for dumping. Of course, if you want the actual item in one piece afterwards, you'd better have it shipped to you first because I have a nasty habit of losing the bits once they're disassembled and dumped :-D
The spring-loaded cart eject mechanism on the Casio Loopy is kind of errrr, somewhere in my lounge room. Now it's a asoiC oopy ;-)

Regarding the PasoGo carts, I would say there are 10 at least. The ones I have here have numbers on the carts. I have KS-1004, KS-1009 & KS-1010. I've just dumped the remaining carts so I'll put them somewhere for downloading....



Guru



Originally Posted By ranger_lennier
And the results are in! I won the auctions for the PasoGo and Visicom. I also picked up a Super Cassette Vision cart and a collection of six Cassette Vision carts (amazingly, only $30 for the latter). I lost the auctions for the Cassette Vision and Super Cassette Vision systems, but I'm not overly concerned because Ian Knowles has a version of each of those (though I'd be interested to see if the bios are any different). I also went ahead and picked up one of those Pocket Dream systems that had been mentioned here. Guru said he figured it had some surface-mounted ROMs.

All in all, I'm pretty pleased. I hope we can make some progress on dumping the Epoch systems now. The Cassette Vision seems like one of the more important consoles that are still unemulated.
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/07/08 04:20 PM

Originally Posted By Guru

The spring-loaded cart eject mechanism on the Casio Loopy is kind of errrr, somewhere in my lounge room. Now it's a asoiC oopy ;-)


Haha, I bets that the same spring that flew over my shoulder and took me an age to find.
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/07/08 10:36 PM

Today is a good day smile

I just won this auction (every known cart will now be dumped! :D) and 3 more playdia discs landed on my doormat this morning.
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/08/08 01:42 AM

Originally Posted By etabeta78
I bought a pocket dream as well (it's what I mentioned before wink ) hope you haven't paid too much...

anyway I'll make a wiki page with my possessions next week (finally back to italy to sort out my new gadgets :P )


Not all that much (and it might be kind of cool to play around with). But yeah, it's good if we can keep track of what everyone has.
Posted By: That70sguy

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/10/08 01:47 PM

If anyone is interested, in donations, I have some system, I willing to give:

TI-74
Casio CFX9850-9950
Comquest Plus
PC-FX
Compaq Portable (luggable)
Compaq Plus

If this help you any let me know.
Posted By: judge

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/10/08 01:55 PM

For the comquest plus we could use some nice pictures of the inside, the current driver code seems to have some guesses regarding the clock speed for instance.
Posted By: Lord Nightmare

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/10/08 05:28 PM

Compaq Portable (luggable)
Compaq Plus

We need the bioses from these two dumped.
Also any bios setup diskettes if they used them. I know some later 286-based compaq machines used a special diskette for bios setup.

LN
Posted By: John Elliott

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/10/08 09:42 PM

I have BIOS ROM dumps from a Compaq Portable (BIOS revision C) and a Compaq Deskpro of similar vintage (BIOS revision E). I can also provide technical info on how the enhanced CGA on these computers works, and the other minor ways their hardware differs from a standard IBM XT.

One other remark: The character ROM for the PC1512 (version 1) was reconstructed with CGAFONT rather than imaged, because the character ROM in my version 1 PC1512 was soldered to the motherboard. I've just got round to desoldering it and imaging it, and the resulting image is identical to the one that MESS is already using. So the note on http://mess.toseciso.org/sysinfo:pc1512 saying that the character ROM dump is missing can go.
Posted By: Jonathan Wilson

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/11/08 08:48 AM

With regards to the Casio 9850, are calculators even on the radar screen for MESS?
Posted By: Duke

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/11/08 10:03 AM

Yes, several are already supported (the scope of MESS is really wide - basically we cover everything MAME doesn't).
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/14/08 03:07 PM

All the known BBC Bridge Companion carts are now dumped laugh

I was lucky as nearly all of them had checksum stickers on the eproms and every dump matched them. I like it when everything is easy.
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/14/08 03:51 PM

Nice smile
Posted By: ht1848

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/14/08 07:54 PM

Originally Posted By incog
All the known BBC Bridge Companion carts are now dumped laugh


I second the Nice!.

How about making a .hsi file while it is fresh in your memory or at least a good list with correct name and correct CRC.

Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/14/08 08:21 PM

Originally Posted By ht1848
Originally Posted By incog
All the known BBC Bridge Companion carts are now dumped laugh


I second the Nice!.

How about making a .hsi file while it is fresh in your memory or at least a good list with correct name and correct CRC.



Quite a few of the dumps are multiple files, as they have anything from 1 to 4 eproms in them... I dumped them and kept them seperate. MESS doesnt handle multiple file dumps yet and if you merge them MESS runs them fine. I can make a .hsi file of the carts that only used 1 eprom until a method/format is decided for the rest.
Posted By: ht1848

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/14/08 10:10 PM

ah ok. That is too bad.

Someday someone will crack that whole multi-file/xml problem, but I think there is whole thread for that.

I'm glad to see a whole set captured.
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/14/08 10:21 PM

There is a whole thread for that, and meanwhile NEStopia 1.38's out with a defined xml multi-file format for NES games. People got caught up in "perfect" on that thread and now "works" is here to win. Again.
Posted By: ht1848

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/14/08 11:04 PM

Well sweet Jebediah! I didn't even notice 1.38.
Posted By: That70sguy

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/15/08 05:49 PM

Originally Posted By Lord Nightmare
Compaq Portable (luggable)
Compaq Plus

We need the bioses from these two dumped.
Also any bios setup diskettes if they used them.
LN


I have System disks, and a few DOS disks for the Compaq Portable, but I dont know if they have System bios setup. I think Compaq Plus runs on the same System disks, if I remeber correctly.

Originally Posted By judge
For the comquest plus we could use some nice pictures of the inside, the current driver code seems to have some guesses regarding the clock speed for instance.


I will do photos as soon as posible, maybe this Friday or some time nextweek.
Posted By: Lord Nightmare

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/15/08 07:07 PM

Yes, we need images of all the system and OS disks. Do you have a modern machine with a 5.25 drive in it which can read them? be sure to put write protect stickers on the disks BEFORE imaging them, as even typing DIR in DOS can change disk contents otherwise! (it removes certain extraneous bits in the directory entry table which are important in some cases)

rawread or another disk imaging tool (or "dd if=/dev/fd0 of=disk.img" in linux) will work. A catweasel in linux will also work.
If you do not have a drive capable of reading the disks, you can send them to me, I have a computer set up for reading them.


We also need the bios images from the machines, which you can dump to blank, formatted diskettes using DEBUG in dos, instructions are available at:
http://mess.toseciso.org/dumping:dump_bios_using_debug

We need the F0000-F7FFF and F8000-FFFFF areas dumped (as the instructions there show) and also the C0000-C7FFF, C8000-Cffff areas to get the rom bios contents for any expansion cards.
The D0000-...-DFFFF, E0000-...-EFFFF areas would be nice too but are optional.

LN
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/19/08 11:09 PM

japan-games has a Super Cassette Vision system with three carts up for auction on e-Bay. I'll probably hold off on this system for the moment, though. Guru has a cart coming his way, and I talked to Ian Knowles, who said his system was still available.

There's also a Casio PV-1000 system for sale. I'd like to see this supported, but no games are currently available.

Does anyone know if Nintendo's Color TV Game consoles use a CPU?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_TV_Game
Posted By: Anna Wu

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/20/08 04:42 PM

Quote:
Does anyone know if Nintendo's Color TV Game consoles use a CPU?


I found this info.
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/20/08 05:00 PM

Ahh, the AY-3-8500. Do we know if it's actually an MCU or just the discrete logic of the time boiled down to an IC?
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/20/08 07:12 PM

I believe it's just a pong-in-a-chip IC. Some later General Instruments chips for dedicated consoles were actually MCU's, though. This book gives a great overview:

ftp://ftp.eskimo.com/u/m/mzenier/GI-Games-1978.pdf
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/20/08 07:45 PM

Neat, that's the famous chip manual the Intellivision was "designed" from smile
Posted By: Stiletto

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/21/08 07:45 AM

Man, I've had that for AGES... I basically leeched all of his datasheets after reading all of pong-story.com and going searchin'. smile

He also had posted a copy of a theory for dumping a 68705P5 to Usenet once that was interesting, but IIRC Guru debunked it. Or maybe it turned out to only apply to 68705U5's, I can't remember.
Posted By: Guru

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 05/02/08 08:49 AM

Originally Posted By Stiletto
Man, I've had that for AGES... I basically leeched all of his datasheets after reading all of pong-story.com and going searchin'. smile

He also had posted a copy of a theory for dumping a 68705P5 to Usenet once that was interesting, but IIRC Guru debunked it. Or maybe it turned out to only apply to 68705U5's, I can't remember.


You probably mean 68705P3. The U-something is a 40-pin chip.... I actually dumped one of them from a Pushman PCB. The 68705P5's are always protected. That is a main type that needs to be dumped / decapped and doing that will give us about a dozen nice Taito games.
If it was a 68705P5 I'd like to see that document :-)


This thread should be sticky'd, btw. I've purposely bumped it because there was W-A-Y too much fluff above this important thread :-D



Guru
Posted By: Stiletto

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 05/03/08 06:50 AM

I believe we've talked about it before, buddy. You remember this?
http://google.com/group/comp.arch.embedded/msg/4dbfbec34a616622
IIRC it was something like, someone posted generally about Motorola 68705P's and Mark accused them of implying that it worked on P5's.

He's had other posts on the P3 back in the day.
http://google.com/group/sci.electronics/browse_thread/thread/7b915a6f5fc4b089
http://google.com/group/sci.electronics/browse_thread/thread/21adf03b2a7f9020
http://google.com/group/sci.electronics/browse_thread/thread/b06226d031a6fb4c
http://google.com/group/sci.electronics/browse_thread/thread/360cd891030895ca

BTW - I'm good at regularly bringing this thread to a halt. Yay me!

- Stiletto
Posted By: Guru

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 05/04/08 02:14 PM

Originally Posted By Stiletto
I believe we've talked about it before, buddy. You remember this?
http://google.com/group/comp.arch.embedded/msg/4dbfbec34a616622
IIRC it was something like, someone posted generally about Motorola 68705P's and Mark accused them of implying that it worked on P5's.


hmmm. putting it in test mode then writing a program to read out the data (presumably having it plugged into some kind of custom board hooked to the parallel port?) and adjusting the voltage at the exact right time to fool it, and some other mumbo jumbo. It's not really a _solution_ , at least not one that can be done easily.



Guru
Posted By: Lord Nightmare

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 05/04/08 04:58 PM

Hmm, what he was describing on that board sounds like it would work, though its a variant brute force attack:
Basically, you set the protected chip into verify mode, which iterates comparing the external and internal memories to verify that the internal rom matches the external one. The security hole is, the verify program(on mask rom inside all 68705s) STOPS when it detects a mismatch between external and internal roms. so, what you do is this:
Have an external MCU (maybe an atmel avr) outside the 68705 which watches what the 68705 does. set the external ram (which the 68705 is comparing against) to all zeroes. Now, run the 68705 in verify mode. It will halt after the first byte read from 0x0000 (and this will be visible on its bus, probably by the address bus ceasing to increment, testing is required) if the first byte in the internal rom is NOT a zero. If this is true, the external MCU should change the first byte in the ram it is verifying against to a 01, and reset the 68705 and set it to verify mode again.
if it fails again, set it to 02. etc.
once the verify program PASSES the test it will read address 0x0001 and halt. the external mcu should repeat the increment-and-reset for byte 1. repeat for all bytes in the internal rom. this takes about 18 or more hours to finish.
But it really should work, assuming Motorola didn't change the internal rom to prevent this attack on some revisions.

LN

EDIT: one more important thing:
> Bootstrap program is always present in the address space, so you can
> program up a blank part and read it out. It's pretty strange and tight
> code that copies itself into the RAM and runs from there. But it's only
> 115 bytes.

This needs to be dumped and implemented in the 68705 cpu core.
Posted By: That70sguy

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 05/05/08 03:17 PM

Originally Posted By That70sguy
Originally Posted By judge
For the comquest plus we could use some nice pictures of the inside, the current driver code seems to have some guesses regarding the clock speed for instance.


I will do photos as soon as posible, maybe this Friday or some time nextweek.




Sorry for the dely, but these aren't the best photos. If they don't show on this post PM me, and I will send them.
Posted By: F-3582

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 05/05/08 06:24 PM

Tough luck trying to link to photos from your local hard disk. You might wanna upload them somewhere, I suppose wink
Posted By: That70sguy

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 05/05/08 07:12 PM

comquest plus are here MESS Comquest Photos
Posted By: Stiletto

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 05/07/08 05:39 AM

Okay, wait a sec LN:

old private email:
"P3's can be read by trying to write them with vpp disabled, and seeing when the verify passes.

they fixed this on P5's"

I guess that means, no go! smile
Posted By: etabeta78

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 05/07/08 07:16 AM

Originally Posted By Guru
Want me to scan the Epoch thingy? It could be nice to have that as artwork with the game playing in the middle :-)

Not sure if it's already done, but the same thing should be done for other handhelds that are easily scanned, like GB/GBA etc


Guru


@Guru: sorry to bump this old post of yours, but did you find a spare moment to scan the Game Pocket (and/or the other handhelds you have)? it would be great to have them around the release of MESS 0.125 smile
Posted By: Anna Wu

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 05/07/08 10:13 AM

Exist a good dump of the PCW Boot ROM (pcwboot.bin) ?
Just a question. smile
Posted By: John Elliott

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 05/07/08 11:22 PM

Jacob Nevins has a disassembly of the PCW8512 boot ROM, extracted by sticking a scope trace on the expansion port and recording what the processor fetched. It comes in two parts - an initialisation chunk which copies the 256-byte boot code into RAM, and the 256-byte loader itself.

http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~jacobn/cpm/pcwboot.html

As he points out, the 256-byte loader has to be different for 9000-series PCWs because their boot sector checksum isn't the same (probably the INC A at address 0080h becomes a DEC A). Also, since the 256-byte loader is still in memory when a boot sector is launched, it should be possible to retrieve it using a custom boot sector.
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 05/08/08 01:10 AM

Originally Posted By etabeta78

@Guru: sorry to bump this old post of yours, but did you find a spare moment to scan the Game Pocket (and/or the other handhelds you have)? it would be great to have them around the release of MESS 0.125 smile


He's already made a scan. incog, are you still handling the MESS artwork?
Posted By: etabeta78

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 05/08/08 04:08 AM

I guess everything should be sent to Mr.Do... very busy with MAME artwork, but yet...
Posted By: Lord Nightmare

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 05/08/08 05:27 AM

Originally Posted By Stiletto
Okay, wait a sec LN:

old private email:
"P3's can be read by trying to write them with vpp disabled, and seeing when the verify passes.

they fixed this on P5's"

I guess that means, no go! smile

damn! and it sounded like such a nice idea too...
Posted By: etabeta78

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 05/08/08 12:27 PM

Originally Posted By That70sguy
comquest plus are here MESS Comquest Photos


could you take a detailed picture of the bottom part, so that it's possible to read which chips are there?
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 05/09/08 01:55 PM

Originally Posted By ranger_lennier
Originally Posted By etabeta78

@Guru: sorry to bump this old post of yours, but did you find a spare moment to scan the Game Pocket (and/or the other handhelds you have)? it would be great to have them around the release of MESS 0.125 smile


He's already made a scan. incog, are you still handling the MESS artwork?


Sure, but im currently having to use a huge ass HDTV as my monitor because my real monitor died (backlight failure or something) so I have no idea what the output would look like in anything but a slightly blurry 1360 by 768.
Posted By: John Elliott

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 05/19/08 06:41 PM

There appear to be two PCW boot images - one for dot-matrix PCWs (8000,9256,10) and one for daisywheel PCWs (9512, 9512+). Note that in the rest of this post, I'm only covering the 256-byte boot image, not the initial instruction stream that copies it into RAM.

The 8000/9256/10 one can be built from the assembly listing at

http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~jacobn/cpm/pcwboot.html

The 9512 one is the same except that the byte at offset 2Ch is 20h not 21h, and the byte at offset 7Eh is 3Dh not 3Ch. Note that the boot image loads at address 2, so in the listing these bytes appear at addresses 2Eh and 80h respectively.

If you want to be sure you've reconstructed them correctly, the 8000/9256/10 boot image has a CRC of 5EDC and the 9512 image has a CRC of 4A75, as calculated by the dump utility I wrote:

http://www.seasip.info/Misc/bootdump.zip

Usenet thread:

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/comp.sys.amstrad.8bit/browse_thread/thread/0343dbccb2c631df#
Posted By: robcfg

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 05/25/08 10:13 PM

Hey!

I just dumped the Walther ES210 rom (an Amstrad nc100 clone with totally different software) and the Phillips MSX VG8000/10.

Whom should I send the roms?

Last time I was told to send it to Nathan, but it seems that his email address is no longer in his profile.

Posted By: Justin

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 05/25/08 10:18 PM

Originally Posted By robcfg
Last time I was told to send it to Nathan, but it seems that his email address is no longer in his profile.


It's still Nathan, contact details are at http://www.mess.org/contacts.php
Posted By: robcfg

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 05/26/08 08:59 AM

Thanks Justin!

I think yesterday I had my brain on holiday! XD
Posted By: That70sguy

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/05/08 12:02 AM

Originally Posted By etabeta78


could you take a detailed picture of the bottom part, so that it's possible to read which chips are there?


Better Comquest photos NOW MESS Comquest
Posted By: MooglyGuy

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/08/08 12:22 AM

What are the chances we could pick up one of these guys? http://cgi.ebay.com/NuBus-Ethernet-Card-...Q2em118Q2el1247

It appears to have a dumpable ROM on it, and assuming Macs ever make their way into MESS, having something with emulated ethernet might kick either Nathan or Aaron into gear to abstract a socket interface for MAME.
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/08/08 12:24 AM

We've no shortage of things with emulatable ethernet already, so I don't think that in particular's gonna cause any movement smile
Posted By: MooglyGuy

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/08/08 01:33 AM

Originally Posted By R. Belmont
We've no shortage of things with emulatable ethernet already, so I don't think that in particular's gonna cause any movement smile


Name one. smile
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/09/08 02:06 PM

Extremely interesting but out of my price range: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Bandai-Vectrex-Kou...oQQcmdZViewItem

Do you have these 3 PasoGo carts Ranger_lennier?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/KOEI-PasoGo-Handhe...oQQcmdZViewItem

Currently I've not been able to find anything interesting enough and in my price range to buy, it would be very nice to have a list of items listed by priority that the devs want/need so im not just buying what I think needs saving.

So, a question for all devs, what is your most wanted dump?
Posted By: Guru

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/09/08 05:21 PM

Originally Posted By incog

Do you have these 3 PasoGo carts Ranger_lennier?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/KOEI-PasoGo-Handhe...oQQcmdZViewItem


yep, we have got all of those ones.
I just received a large 2-feet-square box of stuff that Ranger bought a while back. It was filled with millions of little foam pieces. I pulled out a large console thing by Toshiba(?), lots of carts for some old Epoch TV thing and 3 PasoGo carts (KS-1001, KS-1002, KS-1003) and some other stuff. I'll wait for Ranger to reply with the full list of what it's supposed to be and/or update his possessions on the mess wiki.

I have no idea what the names of the PasoGo carts are so here's a reference pic. If anyone sees others we don't have, let us know. This is a temp link so this pic should be updated to Ranger's have list in the wiki ASAP.
http://www.mameworld.net/gurudumps/temp/dscn5581.jpg
(click the link to go there then refresh it to show it, the site has off-site file linking disabled)
Posted By: Justin

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/10/08 02:42 AM

Originally Posted By Guru
I have no idea what the names of the PasoGo carts are so here's a reference pic.


From left to right, top to bottom:

  • Igo Meikyokushuu Dai Ikkan
  • Tanoshii Tsumego Dai Nikan
  • Taikyoku-kun I
  • Tsuyoku Naru Tesuji Dai Ikkan
  • Tanoshii Tsumego Dai Ikkan
  • Denshi Goban


All various things to do with Go (I guess that was pretty obvious though).
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/10/08 04:02 AM

Originally Posted By incog
Extremely interesting but out of my price range: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Bandai-Vectrex-Kou...oQQcmdZViewItem


Is there anything undumped here? I'm not sure whether or not the Japanese Vectrex carts have different data than the American ones.
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/10/08 04:05 AM

Its unknown if the bios is different, same with the carts. Im hoping they are the same just so my wallet doesnt take a hammering.
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/10/08 04:10 AM

Originally Posted By Guru

I just received a large 2-feet-square box of stuff that Ranger bought a while back. It was filled with millions of little foam pieces. I pulled out a large console thing by Toshiba(?), lots of carts for some old Epoch TV thing and 3 PasoGo carts (KS-1001, KS-1002, KS-1003) and some other stuff. I'll wait for Ranger to reply with the full list of what it's supposed to be and/or update his possessions on the mess wiki.


The Toshiba console is the Visicom, a Japanese clone of the RCA Studio II. I believe it was the first ROM-based videogame console released in Japan. I'll be interested to see how the BIOS compare to the American system and the German clone I sent you earlier.

There's also a Pocket Dream system (newish dedicated portable), six Epoch Cassette Vision carts, one Epoch Super Cassette Vision cart, and the PasoGo with the three carts.

I would guess the Epoch carts can be dumped easily, but we may need to dump a microcontroller in the systems. Ian Knowles has one of each, and is willing to help out, so we'll have to figure out the best thing to do with them.
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/10/08 04:14 AM

Originally Posted By Justin
Originally Posted By Guru
I have no idea what the names of the PasoGo carts are so here's a reference pic.


From left to right, top to bottom:

  • Igo Meikyokushuu Dai Ikkan
  • Tanoshii Tsumego Dai Nikan
  • Taikyoku-kun I
  • Tsuyoku Naru Tesuji Dai Ikkan
  • Tanoshii Tsumego Dai Ikkan
  • Denshi Goban


All various things to do with Go (I guess that was pretty obvious though).


Somehow, those names still don't tell me anything, but I guess it's something to list on the Wiki. smile

Would you be able to try out the PasoGo driver? It's listed as non-working, but aside from the lack of sound it seems fine to me. My tests are limited by a rudimentary knowledge of Go and a non-existent knowledge of Japanese, however.
Posted By: judge

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/10/08 06:10 AM

Originally Posted By ranger_lennier

I would guess the Epoch carts can be dumped easily, but we may need to dump a microcontroller in the systems. Ian Knowles has one of each, and is willing to help out, so we'll have to figure out the best thing to do with them.


It looks there is some bit of code here which might be used to transfer the bios to tape: http://www2.odn.ne.jp/~haf09260/Scv/EnrScv.htm
Posted By: Anna Wu

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/10/08 07:55 AM

Maybe this guy can help too ?
Posted By: judge

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/10/08 08:26 AM

Originally Posted By Anna Wu
Maybe this guy can help too ?


Interesting, looks like that guy has some of the european versions (made by Yeno). Don't know if he also has a unit, the Yeno version just might have a different version of the internal bios.
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/11/08 01:34 AM

Originally Posted By judge
Originally Posted By Anna Wu
Maybe this guy can help too ?


Interesting, looks like that guy has some of the european versions (made by Yeno). Don't know if he also has a unit, the Yeno version just might have a different version of the internal bios.


The Yeno version is also the one Ian has. But certainly it would be worth contacting the guy since he's got some of the ROM dumps. Does anyone speak French?
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/11/08 01:35 AM

Originally Posted By incog
Its unknown if the bios is different, same with the carts. Im hoping they are the same just so my wallet doesnt take a hammering.


Maybe if we ever see a lone cart we could pick it up to see.
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/11/08 01:44 AM

Guru news--the stuff I sent and getting ready for massive decapping.

http://www.mameworld.net/gurudumps/

Have we got any decapping candidates? There are a few of my things that would qualify. Probably use maskROM--Microvision carts, Telstar Arcade carts, Action Max system. Possibly--Captain Power toys, Entex Select-A-Game carts, Mattel Auto Race handheld game.

Has there been any progress on TMS1xxx dumping?
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/12/08 12:51 AM

Just picked this up: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Amstrad-Sega-Mega-...1QQcmdZViewItem

Pretty cheap considering how rare they are, im hoping this is an original model and not the updated (and rarer) mega pc plus version I have and dumped.

Im also hoping this one has a HD that isnt seized up too, the last one had to be trashed without being able to read it.

The Amstrad MegaPC is a PC with an ISA card add-on that is basically a cutdown megadrive, so far I've dumped the PC bios of the upgraded version but a dump of the keyboard controller eludes me, its protected or someshit.

If anybody wants the mega pc plus dump just whistle.
Posted By: Lord Nightmare

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/12/08 01:34 AM

send the keyboard controller of the megapc plus to guru, he's preparing a big shipment of stuff to decap
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/17/08 06:59 PM

I got the Amstrad MegaPC today, my hunch was right. Its an original version with a i386. I've dumped the bios roms and scanned the mnotherboard.

Amstrad MegaPC
http://xs128.xs.to/xs128/08252/megapc600.jpg

Amstrad MegaPC Plus
http://aycu38.webshots.com/image/30637/2003096055343971880_rs.jpg

Looks like the NiCad on the original un-upgraded board is about to leak too.

Whoever wants the roms for either, just ask smile
Posted By: MooglyGuy

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/17/08 08:25 PM

Originally Posted By Guru
I just received a large 2-feet-square box of stuff that Ranger bought a while back. It was filled with millions of little foam pieces. I pulled out a large console thing by Toshiba(?), lots of carts for some old Epoch TV thing and 3 PasoGo carts (KS-1001, KS-1002, KS-1003) and some other stuff. I'll wait for Ranger to reply with the full list of what it's supposed to be and/or update his possessions on the mess wiki.


Hey Guru, what are the chances that if I shipped you an N64 and an N64 cartridge of each CIC type you could get all of the major on-board N64 chips decapped - specifically, whatever one contains the PIF - as well as each CIC decapped? It's known that the CICs are some form of 4-bit Sharp MCU, but ID and either optical or electrical readout would be a massive help to N64 emulation, and I'd like to test my theory that the PIF controller on the N64 motherboard is an MCU itself.

There's also a chance, albeit small, that N64 controllers "intelligent" devices, what would be the chances of getting one of those fellows taken care of?
Posted By: Guru

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/17/08 11:05 PM

Yeah, send it out. I sent you an email...
Posted By: Jonathan Wilson

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/18/08 03:19 AM

Speaking of CIC, would it be worthwhile trying to get a SNES CIC decapped (so we can figure out what MCU it is?)
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/18/08 04:26 AM

That's getting so ticky-tack I'm not sure even byuu would emulate it if we knew :-) The N64 CIC still has a role in normal emulation, the SNES one is strictly access control.
Posted By: Mike S.

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/18/08 05:07 AM

byuu is a pompous asshole only interested in advancing his own goals anyway. (He cries foul when others lock away secrets from the world (aka, him), and then turns around and does exactly the same)
Posted By: Knurek

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/18/08 05:15 AM

Uhh, wha?
Unless I've missed something BSNES is open sourced, so how can there be any info hoarding there?
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/18/08 05:23 AM

It's open source and I've found him to be neither "pompous" nor an "asshole" in email conversations. Justify or delete.
Posted By: Mike S.

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/18/08 07:40 AM

He seems to have removed his pre-2007 articles, but nonetheless, he makes it very clear that he's quite annoyed when emulators/software is put as freeware or with similar obstacles that prevent them from being developed further or re-used in future projects, after the original authors stop producing it for whatever reason (be it loss of interest, death, whatever). This part is fairly understandable.

On the flip side, does he provide people a way to continue developing bsnes after he no longer develops it himself? No. bsnes is even less "open source" than MESS is; if he goes, then that's the end of bsnes. You want the most accurate SNES emulator after that, and bsnes isn't good enough? Tough, you got to build from scratch.

I had a conversation with him a couple years ago, but it didn't really change anything. He started using arguments like "But why does the FSF get to say what 'free software' means? If I want it to mean binary-only freeware, then I can call it free software!" (very Bill Clinton-like, imo), to just calling me a "GPL zealot"; that's about where I stopped it; the GPL zealot phrase along made my blood boil (I dislike the GPL; what it tries to do is proven to be unnecessary, BSD proves it), but I didn't respond after that. It was pretty much a liberal v. conservative debate at that point, neither side ever going to waiver.
Posted By: etabeta78

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/18/08 08:57 AM

Originally Posted By Mike S.
On the flip side, does he provide people a way to continue developing bsnes after he no longer develops it himself? No. bsnes is even less "open source" than MESS is; if he goes, then that's the end of bsnes. You want the most accurate SNES emulator after that, and bsnes isn't good enough? Tough, you got to build from scratch.


why? to my knowledge he only wants not to have forks while he's actively developing bsnes (so that all the improvements go back to the a unique source). I seriously doubt he would not let people continue his work if he quits.
Posted By: Vas Crabb

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/18/08 09:09 AM

Originally Posted By Mike S.
byuu is a pompous asshole


Really? He seems positively humble in all the e-mail exchanges I've had with him. I'm far more arrogant than I've ever seen him show himself to be.

Originally Posted By Mike S.
only interested in advancing his own goals anyway.


He works on what he wants to work on in his spare time, just like all of us. Do you level the same accusation at all of us?

Originally Posted By Mike S.
(He cries foul when others lock away secrets from the world (aka, him), and then turns around and does exactly the same)


Really? He seems to release a fair bit of code into the public domain.
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/18/08 12:45 PM

I don't entirely agree with him on licensing (his stance on forking is excessively paranoid and doesn't jive with the real behavior of people) but he does ship the source and he's quite pleasant to talk to in my experience. Now, back to your regularly scheduled topic.
Posted By: Rhapsody

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/18/08 07:46 PM

Originally Posted By Mike S.
I had a conversation with him a couple years ago, but it didn't really change anything. He started using arguments like "But why does the FSF get to say what 'free software' means? If I want it to mean binary-only freeware, then I can call it free software!" (very Bill Clinton-like, imo), to just calling me a "GPL zealot"; that's about where I stopped it; the GPL zealot phrase along made my blood boil (I dislike the GPL; what it tries to do is proven to be unnecessary, BSD proves it), but I didn't respond after that. It was pretty much a liberal v. conservative debate at that point, neither side ever going to waiver.

I had an e-mail conversation with him too. He posted Software Licensing, I posted a rebuttal entitled byuu's Paranoia, and we ended up exchanging some e-mails about it. Contrary to your experiences, I found him quite pleasant and reasonable. He was willing to admit some of his analogies were flawed, and I came to understand (though not agree with) his reasoning. I still think he's too paranoid about forking, and that any such threat has passed now anyway.

I'm fairly confident that he will release the source code under a more liberal license (probably into the public domain) once he's done with it. We did briefly discuss the possibility of him not being able to do that (sudden death or incapacitation can happen to anyone) and he said he'd consider putting an expiration clause in the license, presumably making bsnes fall into the public domain after some time has passed with no updates. He doesn't seem to have done this though.
Posted By: byuu

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/18/08 09:48 PM

Sorry, not stalking anyone. Just checking the old referral logs.

"He seems to have removed his pre-2007 articles"

I removed two because they were predominantly Wikipedia rants, and I've decided it's better to just ignore the site at this point (another topic entirely.) I'll repost any specific one if you like for reference. The other was a G11 keyboard setup article that Ubuntu 8.04 addressed nicely.

"he makes it very clear that he's quite annoyed when emulators/software is put as freeware or with similar obstacles that prevent them from being developed further or re-used in future projects"

You misunderstand me. My problem is with people keeping secrets, eg "I know how register $286c works, but I'm not going to tell you because it makes my emulator better than yours."

I'm kind of in the middle ground between OSS and closed source, myself. I'll happily tell you *way* more than you ever wanted to know about how that register works if you ask, and even let you use my code directly, but you have to ask. That's all. I consider it common courtesy.

But yes, I realize it's hypocritical for me to get upset at others for the licensing choices. It's their project, and they owe me nothing. It's an internal conflict of mine I haven't been able to resolve.

"On the flip side, does he provide people a way to continue developing bsnes after he no longer develops it himself?"

That you care more about my code than about me as a person when I die is disheartening, and doesn't encourage me to cater to your licensing ideals.

"But why does the FSF get to say what 'free software' means?"

Do you honestly disagree with this? The term existed long before the FSF "coined" it. Same for "open source."

"to just calling me a "GPL zealot";"

Did I honestly call you a zealot personally? If so, I apologize humbly. I was probably in a bad mood. I usually refer to people in general, and not specifically.

"He said he'd consider putting an expiration clause in the license, presumably making bsnes fall into the public domain after some time has passed with no updates."

I'm really worried about how to word it. As others are very quick to point out, I'm not a lawyer. Really, it's just apathy that I haven't added it.

---

Anyway, I intend to release under BSDL soon enough. I want to get the dot-based PPU renderer started first, though, and I need a vacation first. I don't want anyone forking it before then just because I'm not active. I could discuss my paranoid objections to forking in another discussion if you like. Anyway, I'm sorry that annoys you, and I agree that it's not cool of me to specify a license like I do.

But really, I give you all the source. True, you can't change two lines and call it your own emulator, as it's a reference. It's all free, too. I'm honestly saddened that you'd call me a "pompous asshole" after giving you three and a half years of my personal research for free. I've also contributed countless fixes to *all* active emulators (well, sans MESS), which no doubt benefit you. If you really dislike me so much, you can choose to just ignore me instead.

If you have any other concerns, I'll be happy to address them publicly or privately.

---

Oh yeah, emulating the CIC -- yeah, a bit too extreme, even for me. If it had any visible effect on emulation, that'd be different.

Now, if someone would work on a hardware interface for the SPC7110 ... smile
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/18/08 10:13 PM

found this, http://www.amstradcg.nl/mega.pdf shame its not much higer res
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/19/08 12:36 AM

incog: still pretty nice. Once we have working 386+VGA and the struct running_machine separation's completed that should be interesting.
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/20/08 09:54 PM

Interesting items:

VTech IT Umlimited - never seen one of these before.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/VTECH-I-T-UNLIMITE...id=p3286.c0.m14

Stereo that is actually a CD-I console with built-in VCD card, does anybody have a list of what CD-I bios revisions are dumped?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/PHILIPS-CDI-FW380I...id=p3286.c0.m14

Studio II (current dump in MESS is flagged as bad, these dont come up on ebay often)
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Very-Rare-RCA-Stud...id=p3286.c0.m14
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/21/08 12:47 AM

Originally Posted By incog

Studio II (current dump in MESS is flagged as bad, these dont come up on ebay often)
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Very-Rare-RCA-Stud...id=p3286.c0.m14


What's bad about the dump? I've got two Studio II systems. They're not particularly hard to find in the U.S.
Posted By: Justin

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/21/08 01:10 AM

Quoth the source:

Code:
    TODO:
    - redump studio2 bios as 4 separate roms
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/21/08 01:24 AM

That's just being pedantic - you could split the existing dump into 4 pieces. It'll run the same either way.
Posted By: Guru

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/22/08 12:46 PM

Originally Posted By R. Belmont
That's just being pedantic - you could split the existing dump into 4 pieces. It'll run the same either way.


well if the real thing has 4 ROMs, just split it and be done with it. Having one image is technically not the correct way to support the dump.
If cart dumps were done right we wouldnt have the mess we have now with single files for carts that have multiple ROMs in them. For emulation it's fine, but try fixing a busted cart with a single file dump... it's not simple unless you know more than the average Joe about ROM files and splitting/interleaving methods etc. I had a similar problem with Amiga BIOS ROMs. All the ones I found were byte swapped for WinUAE. I wanted to update my A600 to a newer ROM and it didn't work. I eventually figured it out and re-byte-swapped it and it worked fine in the A600. What I'm saying is dumps of ROMs should be supported as they are found on real hardware because it causes trouble later when you need it to fix real hardware. Splitting is all part of the big plan to make MESS conform to MAME standards in a secret deal to rule the emulation world :-D

Posted By: F1ReB4LL

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/22/08 08:38 PM

Any fanatics? smile
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/22/08 09:21 PM

If you read his article about it he said he already dumped the ROMs (yay) and sent them to a Japanese hoard-emu author (boo).
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/22/08 10:02 PM

One system I've been watching for is the Entex Select-A-Game. It appears that the ultra-rare Pac-Man 2 cart could be a tough catch.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=220248190014
Posted By: Lord Nightmare

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/23/08 12:10 AM

R. Belmont: well why not ask him for a copy of the rom image? Surely if he sent it to one emu author he shouldn't be opposed to sending it to others...

LN
Posted By: That70sguy

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/23/08 12:56 PM

Did anybody catch the Comquest photos I took, and posted awhile back????? smile
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/23/08 01:08 PM

Ok, I got 3 sets of Marty ROMs. Just need 386+VGA now :-)
Posted By: Jonathan Wilson

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/23/08 01:09 PM

If the guy only sent them to a Japanese hoarder, he may not be willing to send them to MESSDEV and see them posted all over the internet.
Posted By: judge

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/23/08 01:12 PM

Originally Posted By R. Belmont
Ok, I got 3 sets of Marty ROMs. Just need 386+VGA now :-)


Great.
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/23/08 01:18 PM

JWil: they were actually openly on his site elsewhere (someone PM'ed me a tip).
Posted By: Anna Wu

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/23/08 01:30 PM

Originally Posted By R. Belmont
Ok, I got 3 sets of Marty ROMs. Just need 386+VGA now :-)


The 3rd set is the Marty1 set which is merged for the Xe Multi System Emulator. smile
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/23/08 01:49 PM

Originally Posted By R. Belmont
Ok, I got 3 sets of Marty ROMs. Just need 386+VGA now :-)


Fantastic!
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/24/08 12:39 AM

Even after many moons of collecting videogame console tat, I get a suprise out of the blue.

Tonight it was the Telegames Dina, a Colecovision AND Sega SG 1000 clone!

Whats even better is just after seconds of pasting this link in an IRC channel, kevtris said he dumped one 11 years ago.

So now I have a dump from a system I only just found out existed a few hours ago! laugh
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/24/08 02:15 AM

Makes sense - the Colecovision and SG1000 are the same hardware in different boxes. They should've gone for the triple crown with that hardware and included MSX smile
Posted By: Stiletto

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/27/08 06:55 AM

Originally Posted By R. Belmont
JWil: they were actually openly on his site elsewhere (someone PM'ed me a tip).


Aha, that's the first thing I do when discovering a website that I have suspicions about for harboring other information: go to the root, go to a file listing, find links to other pages on the site from Google, etc.

- Stiletto
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/27/08 03:48 PM

Our friend Japan-Games just listed a bunch of new stock.

Very interesting items:

Sega Dreamcast Divers 2000 Series CX-1 (TV with in-built dreamcast and LED's on the sides that light up with the music)
Casio PV-2000
Casio PV-1000
And lots of interesting carts including something called a Card Catcher for the Sega SG-1000.

Edit: Also on a side note, that Pippin is very odd, the black AtWORLD model was made for the american market... but it has japanese writing on the screen. Unsold units sent back and had its bios swapped out? I'll personally keep and eye out on this one.
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/29/08 05:30 AM

The PV-1000 and PV-2000 are great emulation targets, IMO. They're now only supported by Toshiya Takeda's emulator, with apparently hoarded ROM's.

He's also put up some single Japanese Vectrex carts, with no boxes or instructions. I'm not sure how much they'll go for, but it's probably the cheapest we'd be able to get some to see if they're different from the versions already dumped.
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/30/08 07:50 AM

Originally Posted By That70sguy
Did anybody catch the Comquest photos I took, and posted awhile back????? smile


Yeah, I checked them out. Could you specify what version they're from? I opened up a Comquest Light And Learn Laptop and encountered a big epoxy block. I wanted to take photos, but I'd need to desolder or clip wires to get a good enough view.

IIRC, there's a Comquest dump in MESS, but it's unclear what CPU it uses. Do the photos help answer this?
Posted By: That70sguy

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/30/08 01:29 PM

Originally Posted By ranger_lennier
Originally Posted By That70sguy
Did anybody catch the Comquest photos I took, and posted awhile back????? smile


Yeah, I checked them out. Could you specify what version they're from? I opened up a Comquest Light And Learn Laptop and encountered a big epoxy block. I wanted to take photos, but I'd need to desolder or clip wires to get a good enough view.

IIRC, there's a Comquest dump in MESS, but it's unclear what CPU it uses. Do the photos help answer this?


Read from:
http://www.bannister.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=27098&nt=61&page=51
Posted By: Mednafen

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 07/02/08 03:19 AM

This is kind of OT(I guess it could relate to BIOS dumping), but are there any comprehensive online databases of x86 PCs from 8086 to 80386 or so? I've been contemplating making such a database(though restricted to PCs distributed in North America), but I don't want to duplicate any existing work...
Posted By: Lord Nightmare

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 07/03/08 06:44 AM

Not that I know of, and dear god that's gonna be a lot of work. There are well over 2000 of them.

LN
Posted By: judge

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 07/03/08 07:36 AM

That would be one big driver file smile
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 07/03/08 06:30 PM

All I can find that is anything near that is this.

Supisring really, I thought Wikipedia only covered literature, music, sport, politics, history, and geography patchily.
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 07/04/08 01:17 AM

Does anyone know if the Casio PV-1000 has any internal BIOS? I glanced at the Common Source Code Project code and didn't see any reference, but there aren't a lot of comments:

http://www1.interq.or.jp/~t-takeda/common/source.zip

Pictures of the system internals are here (click on ePV-1000):

http://www1.interq.or.jp/~t-takeda/top.html

Some technical information is here:

http://www.videogameconsolelibrary.com/pg80-pv1000.htm

Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 07/04/08 05:04 AM

I've updated the Wiki with all the stuff I've sent to Guru lately, and noted when games have been dumped. All released APF MP1000 carts have been dumped now. I'm surprised this wasn't already done, since American consoles are generally very well archived.

http://mess.toseciso.org/dumping:info#in_ranger_lenniers_s_possession
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 07/04/08 05:37 AM

Awesome! I recently dumped all the known BBC Bridge Companion carts so I know that great feeling of getting everything wrapped up.

The Casio PV-1000 doesnt seem to have a bios or bootstrap, Im sure the PV-2000 does though.
Posted By: Heihachi_73

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 07/06/08 12:28 AM

Mednafen: You can dump an old PC BIOS using the MS-DOS DEBUG tool - not for the GUI-oriented though. I haven't had anything really old to try it on, but I did dump an IBM 486 SurePath BIOS this way.

The down side is, if it was an interleaved ROM, it won't be now as DEBUG dumps the BIOS cached in RAM, not the chip itself.

As a matter of fact, it's already listed on the MESS Wiki.
Posted By: Mednafen

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 07/07/08 02:03 PM

Sadly, I'm not crazy(and rich) enough to track down and buy thousands of PCs. wink

Anyone here wouldn't happen to have old(late 80s early 90s) Sunday newpaper ads from places like Best Buy/Circuit City/Radio Shack/Silo/etc?

I may just have to go to the library and look through advertisements and store listings in old PC periodicals, but those are somewhat lacking in complete technical specifications(one buyer's guide I have even lists BIOS versions!).
Posted By: Heihachi_73

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 07/07/08 08:43 PM

I have only ever paid for three PCs, all being brand new at their time.

The rest I just keep a look out, as they're left on the side of the road on a regular basis. No-one wants a Pentium 120 with a 1GB drive when they can emulate it at full speed inside their own PC these days! Best one found so far has been a P3 550 (soon overclocked to 616MHz) with a perfectly working, but virus packed, 60GB drive (which has of course been formatted and now supplements my stock 40GB in my current Acer machine).
Posted By: F. Valero

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 07/08/08 01:56 AM

What do you want?

I have some magazines from the past, Byte, PC Magazine, PC World and others.

And some old computers and motherboards, these are from no-name computers, a 486DX, Pentium 60, even a IBM P150 and others, if you want the BIOS I could dump it.
Posted By: Lord Nightmare

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 07/08/08 06:07 AM

Note the update on the dump_bios_using_debug page on the wiki. dumpat.exe cannot dump rom-bios extensions, so I changed the page to note this.

LN
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 07/09/08 01:30 AM

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Portable-Sega-Drea...p3286.m14.l1318

Treamcast auction, already lots of bids and a very high price.

The Treamcast is a pirate dreamcast with hacked firmware that disables the the region lock-out. It alos plays CD-R's, MP3 and Video CDs.

Edit: Would probably be cheaper here. Although I find it hard to trust somebody who sells pirate consoles.
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 07/09/08 01:39 AM

Do we actually care about pirate consoles? smile I can see Famiclones, at least ones with unique software or features, but this is pretty much just a "mod chipped" Dreamcast.
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 07/10/08 02:26 PM

Originally Posted By R. Belmont
Do we actually care about pirate consoles? smile I can see Famiclones, at least ones with unique software or features, but this is pretty much just a "mod chipped" Dreamcast.


I find the unlicensed/pirate hardware more interesting than the originals, probably because Im a collector of the rare and obscure, heh.

On that note, I was searching for snippets of information to improve the Casio Loopy wikipedia article and came across this.

The Bandai Denshi Manga Juku, another obscure as hell handheld that gets 2 relevant links from a google search. Has up to 6 games from what I've found.
Posted By: Stiletto

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 07/14/08 01:39 AM

You can always get better at searching.

Here's something you can do. I didn't use quotes this time because experience shows that word order in translating to/from Japanese can differ from what you originally wrote.
http://translate.google.com/translate_s?...sl=en&tl=ja

- Stiletto
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 07/14/08 01:42 AM

Very nice. You should work for Google smile
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 07/14/08 01:57 PM

So I decided the other day to dump the 3 undumped Playdia CD's I had to CHD but accidently opened one in explorer for the first time, I was kinda suprised to find files. I was even more suprised when I opened the main 700mb file (MOON.AJS in this case) with a hex editor to find:

Code:
RIFF$2.+CDXAfmt ........9.XA........data.2.

I recognized it as a container format and pasted my findings into the IRC channel who confirmed it. Looks like the Playdia games are nothing more than interactive VCD's. I tried fruitlessly to open the discs in various mediaplayers just for shits and giggles. No dice, this does explain why the back of the Playdia manual says the system only runs at 5 ~ 10 FPS, DFJustin said that anime is quite low framerate.

Any ideas? Also if anybody wants dumps of the 8 Playdia discs I have to play with in any format, just ask.
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 07/14/08 02:19 PM

Heh, that's kinda funny. Looks like it's IFF interleaved XA audio (which is just a 4-bit ADPCM varient) and some unknown video (MPEG1 maybe?).
Posted By: Mednafen

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 07/14/08 06:51 PM

Originally Posted By F. Valero
I have some magazines from the past, Byte, PC Magazine, PC World and others.


What is the approximate range of dates for your magazines?
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 07/23/08 03:17 AM

I sent Guru the Japanese release of Star Hawk for the Vectrex. It turns out that the dump is identical to the current dump from the American cart. I'm going to assume the same is true of the other games.
Posted By: Stiletto

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 07/23/08 04:00 AM

Originally Posted By R. Belmont
Very nice. You should work for Google smile
Maybe someday I will... smile

Although what they'd want with a searcher like me, I dunno... someone told me they're into advertising...

and Icahn can go *mumble mumble*

- Stiletto
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 07/23/08 10:58 PM

Hi ranger_lennier, just letting you and the other interested people know im making a nice bid on this auction so we dont stand on each others toes and end up in a bidding war with each other smile
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 07/24/08 12:18 AM

Sweet! That would be a nice catch.
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 07/28/08 01:09 PM

The bandai supervision 8000 went for US $610.00, I wasnt the highest bidder frown

Edit: Just found and bought a cheap (relative to its rareness) gameboy light for decapping laugh http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Japanese-Nintendo-...1742.m153.l1262
Posted By: ht1848

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/20/08 08:07 PM

I was browsing the Non-Mess site and decided to read more about the Altair 8800 as it was one if the first that had MESS listed as non-existant driver. Seemed like a pretty interesting machine with some history. Seem like there is at least 1 emulator and one simulator (SIMH) but I didn't get a chance to play with either yet.

So...Who wants to buy one for dumping?! Altair 8800 on Ebay
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/20/08 08:24 PM

I thought the Altair didn't have any ROMs to dump. AFAIK you had to key in a short bootloader and then it'd load something from tape. Or at least that was always how it was described when Bill Gates first demoed BASIC on real hardware.

ETA: the Wikipedia article backs that up.
Posted By: ht1848

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/20/08 08:50 PM

ah nice I didn't catch that.

Alright everyone stop bidding. Saving your $3500!!!
Posted By: Tomas Karlsson

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/20/08 10:03 PM

Originally Posted By Mednafen
Anyone here wouldn't happen to have old(late 80s early 90s) Sunday newpaper ads from places like Best Buy/Circuit City/Radio Shack/Silo/etc?

Here's a large BYTE archive, but only but early 80's.
http://maben.homeip.net/static/S100/MAGAZINE/BYTE/
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/21/08 08:53 PM

Incidentally, it's not magazines, but it's a good idea to keep an eye on updates to Bitsavers.org. You never know what interesting stuff will turn up.
Posted By: Iggy Drougge

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/25/08 11:05 PM

The wiki lists German VZ200 BASIC dump as unconfirmed. I've got one such machine and opened it up yesterday. Unfortunately, the shield covers all of the electronics, and the ROM is soldered in. Can someone with more Laser experience confirm whether it is enough to just MSAVE a big chunk of the memory or is the ROM only partly readable?
Posted By: Duke

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/26/08 01:53 AM

The ROM should be fully visible. Which version of BASIC is it? And is it one or two ROM chips?
Posted By: Stiletto

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/26/08 04:47 PM

Originally Posted By Tomas Karlsson
Originally Posted By Mednafen
Anyone here wouldn't happen to have old(late 80s early 90s) Sunday newpaper ads from places like Best Buy/Circuit City/Radio Shack/Silo/etc?

Here's a large BYTE archive, but only but early 80's.
http://maben.homeip.net/static/S100/MAGAZINE/BYTE/


Hum, this helps with something else I'm looking at. T/x.

- Stiletto
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/14/08 04:11 AM

How interesting do you guys think eBay auction #230291065324 is? There's a bunch of prototype Vectrex chips. Some might be early versions of games. There's also a cart labeled "Tour De France II," which has never been seen before. The seller isn't sure it's actually different from "Tour De France I," though.
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/14/08 02:22 PM

Given that GCE public-domain'ed everything Vectrex years ago I would assume that we'll see dumps regardless of who buys 'em. (That's certainly been true of every other kind of console proto that's leaked out in the last 10 years).
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/14/08 04:11 PM

Everybody laugh now, http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie...rksid=p3907.m29 - Singer Izek, Gameboy controlled sewing machine, the cart isnt dumped and this is hell-rare. First time I've ever seen one with a VHS tape too.
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/14/08 06:00 PM

Originally Posted By R. Belmont
Given that GCE public-domain'ed everything Vectrex years ago I would assume that we'll see dumps regardless of who buys 'em. (That's certainly been true of every other kind of console proto that's leaked out in the last 10 years).


Probably, but not everything gets dumped and/or released. Some Virtual Boy prototypes are out there, but haven't been dumped so far as I know. One example is Faceball.

http://www.vr32.de/modules/games/index.php?type=unreleased&sec=main&id=5

Awhile ago I made an offer on some prototype N64 game on eBay, but then someone else bought it for the Buy It Now price. I wish I could remember the title. It was some strategy game with an underwater theme. I wonder if that ever got dumped.
Posted By: Guru

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/15/08 03:20 PM

Originally Posted By ht1848
Dumping page is looking good. Still need to think about how to rally the supporters if something available comes up or how to get them dumped (Is the default answer send to Guru?).

http://cgi.ebay.com/BANDAI-PLAYDIA-MINT-...1QQcmdZViewItem

Bandai playdia system on ebay right now. no bids yet. Not sure how rare it is...so can't say it is worth it or not. Anyone know?


The default answer is get it yourself, pull it apart and then post pics here and someone will put their hand up. If that fails or it's using surface mounted chips and soldered-in chips, I'll take care of it.


Guru
Posted By: Guru

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/15/08 03:23 PM

Originally Posted By ranger_lennier
Originally Posted By ht1848
Dumping page is looking good. Still need to think about how to rally the supporters if something available comes up or how to get them dumped (Is the default answer send to Guru?).


Well, that's definitely an option to consider. Guru's said that he'll dump anything. Of course this involves shipping to Australia and he probably won't reverse engineer any unique hardware. I sent him a Tiger R-Zone and some games and he's not sure what to do with them (the carts use something like an epoxy block, I think).


It's actually a piece of shit ;-)
It will need to be decapped and dumped directly from the substrate, like most epoxy blobs. I'm planning to add it to the decap list with other MESS items.



Guru
Posted By: Guru

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/15/08 03:32 PM

Originally Posted By ranger_lennier

Lately, I've been working on a list of undumped Japanese systems, with the intention of tracking some of these down with the help of Guru's Japanese contact.


That's a good idea, but my contact is always busy so unless items are immediately available somewhere (like Yahoo Japan) then after he checks once there won't be any follow-ups. Someone just needs to monitor Yahoo Japan and yell out when something is available (and have money to buy it)

Quote:

Gakken Compact Vision (TV Boy) -- 1983
http://darkwatcher.psxfanatics.com/console/gakken.htm

I thought I have this? There's almost nothing in it. The carts contain 1 chip, a 6801 or something.

Quote:

Casio Loopy "My Seal Computer" -- 1995
http://darkwatcher.psxfanatics.com/console/loopy.htm

incog sent one to me. I dumped all the surface mounted ROMs in the carts and the surface mounted ROMs on the main board. There's an undumped MCU that likely contains the boot code according to RB. This was discussed here I think. Not sure if I can get it decapped or not? incog... ?

Quote:

Pasago -- portable by Koei with carts based on famous Go tournaments, hard to find much info on this, not even sure about the year of release:
http://assemblergames.com/wiki/dogatemysnes/pmwiki.php?n=Topics.KoeiPasago
http://ultimateconsoledatabase.com/portables/pasago_go.htm

I've got that too 2 of them in fact. We discussed what this needs some time ago. There's a big chip in there, it's well documented.




Guru
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/15/08 03:49 PM

Originally Posted By Guru
Originally Posted By ht1848
Dumping page is looking good. Still need to think about how to rally the supporters if something available comes up or how to get them dumped (Is the default answer send to Guru?).

http://cgi.ebay.com/BANDAI-PLAYDIA-MINT-...1QQcmdZViewItem

Bandai playdia system on ebay right now. no bids yet. Not sure how rare it is...so can't say it is worth it or not. Anyone know?


The default answer is get it yourself, pull it apart and then post pics here and someone will put their hand up. If that fails or it's using surface mounted chips and soldered-in chips, I'll take care of it.


Guru


I've already cracked open and scanned a Playdia pcb. It's a bizarre mix of 2 8-bit mcus and a custom video chip. It's basically a VCD player that overlays shitty graphics over the video.

http://xs231.xs.to/xs231/08381/playdia-pcb203.jpg

It's still taken apart and I cant remember how to put it back together, the case is broken due to it biting a chunk out of my thumb. smirk

If you need it, it's yours to keep/decap/sacrifice to the elder gods. I've already dumped an assload of CD's for it.

Oh, and the Casio Loopy and carts I sent you are yours to abuse, It was a spare heh.
Posted By: Guru

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/15/08 04:05 PM

Originally Posted By incog
I've already cracked open and scanned a Playdia pcb. It's a bizarre mix of 2 8-bit mcus and a custom video chip. It's basically a VCD player that overlays shitty graphics over the video.
http://xs231.xs.to/xs231/08381/playdia-pcb203.jpg
It's still taken apart and I cant remember how to put it back together, the case is broken due to it biting a chunk out of my thumb. smirk
If you need it, it's yours to keep/decap/sacrifice to the elder gods. I've already dumped an assload of CD's for it.


Looks like it's a decap candidate. The main CPU looks like the TMP87C800F, which of course is a TLCS-870 Series MCU containing 8k internal maskROM.
http://www.digchip.com/datasheets/download_datasheet.php?id=988736&part-number=TMP87C800

The Asahi Kasei chip looks familiar. I'm sure I've seen that one on at least one arcade PCB. It's the main gfx chip.


Guru
Posted By: Guru

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/15/08 04:06 PM

Originally Posted By incog
Oh, and the Casio Loopy and carts I sent you are yours to abuse, It was a spare heh.

Oh, that's good. I can't remember how to put that piece of shit back together either! :-D



Guru
Posted By: MooglyGuy

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/15/08 06:41 PM

That reminds me, when I get back home (I'm on vacation right now), I still need to send off those N64 games, an N64, and an N64 controller for decapping, as well as an N64 Test Cartridge for dumping by Guru himself. No rush, really.
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/16/08 12:09 AM

Guru, you're replying to some seriously old posts here. smirk

But yes, we've made good progress with some of the items discussed then.

It would still be nice to have someone watching the Japanese auction sites, though. Anyone know Japanese?
Posted By: ht1848

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/16/08 12:52 AM

Guru - 2 questions

Can you give MESS dumping page a little advertising love on this page?

MAME dumping Project

Right now it says no MESS page exists and it would be slick if you could link a note to MESS Dumping page

Second question, I was just in Australia and what is the proper way to answer "How you going?". I couldn't figure out if I answered it the same way as "how you doing" or what the normal Oz response was...And which phrase was actually worse grammatically. lol whatever...Sweet country though, friendly folks. Blue tongue beer was my favorite.
Posted By: Guru

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/16/08 01:51 AM

Originally Posted By ht1848
Guru - 2 questions

Can you give MESS dumping page a little advertising love on this page?

MAME dumping Project

Right now it says no MESS page exists and it would be slick if you could link a note to MESS Dumping page

Second question, I was just in Australia and what is the proper way to answer "How you going?". I couldn't figure out if I answered it the same way as "how you doing" or what the normal Oz response was...And which phrase was actually worse grammatically. lol whatever...Sweet country though, friendly folks. Blue tongue beer was my favorite.


ok link added.

for replying, just say 'not bad mate', or 'good mate', or 'ah, not bad'.
Actually the term 'how you going' is just a greeting. We actually don't care how you are going ;-)
Posted By: ht1848

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/16/08 02:04 AM

lol alright. Just like "how are you doing?" no one really cares.

Thanks for the link!
Posted By: Guru

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/16/08 02:05 AM

Originally Posted By ranger_lennier
Guru, you're replying to some seriously old posts here. smirk

But yes, we've made good progress with some of the items discussed then.

It would still be nice to have someone watching the Japanese auction sites, though. Anyone know Japanese?


oh, err, I just clicked the 'MESS Dumping Project' link and that's where it brought me to. I _thought_ it was a little strange that you were talking about that old stuff. I figured you had gone back in time a few years ;-)

Anyway, some good came of it because now incog is going to send me another piece of shit to decap. Not sure if that's good or bad though ;-)



Guru
Posted By: Guru

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/16/08 02:13 AM

Originally Posted By ht1848
lol alright. Just like "how are you doing?" no one really cares.

Thanks for the link!


however! don't say 'how are you doing' because you will get a very strange look like you're from another world.
generally, you can just say "g'day mate", and the response will be the same. Or say "how ya goin", and the response will be "yeah, not bad mate" or something similar. I don't think it's going to be convincing with an American accent though ;-)

(this concludes Guru's "How to Talk Like An Aussie" lesson for today)



Guru

Posted By: Firewave

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/16/08 08:49 AM

Or go the sophisticated, british way of "I don't f'n care" by replying "Ho do YOU do?" to the initial question of "How do you do?". laugh
Posted By: Guru

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/16/08 09:39 AM

Originally Posted By ht1848
Can you give MESS dumping page a little advertising love on this page?

MAME dumping Project

Right now it says no MESS page exists and it would be slick if you could link a note to MESS Dumping page

Oh also, that page needs to be cleaned up to meet Guru standards ;-)
I have proven that one list is better than 50. Randy did that before, had it all sorted by manufacturer and rarely did anyone click every link (including me!). Now it's just one list that can be printed out easily, kept as a reference and updated easily.
The list should be split into 2 sections.
1. Wanted items all in one text list, sorted by manufacturer (with manufacturer headings like my Wanted List)
2. Items that are held for MESS purposes/decapping/dumping etc.

The Wanted Items should take priority on the page.



Guru
Posted By: etabeta78

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/16/08 11:44 AM

the Other list is already written the way you suggest. we would only need to merge the separated manufacturer lists into the main one
Posted By: Curt Coder

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/17/08 10:33 AM

Guru, how about dumping that Mustang Telespiel RCA Studio clone and the RCA Studio / Mustang cartridges? I would like to add that stuff to MESS already wink
Posted By: Curt Coder

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/17/08 10:36 AM

Originally Posted By Curt Coder
Guru, how about dumping that Mustang Telespiel RCA Studio clone and the RCA Studio / Mustang cartridges? I would like to add that stuff to MESS already wink


Dumping instructions here (5 Extracting the system ROM):

http://studio2.classicgaming.gamespy.com/techinfo.htm
Posted By: Curt Coder

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/17/08 10:52 AM

Originally Posted By Curt Coder
Guru, how about dumping that Mustang Telespiel RCA Studio clone and the RCA Studio / Mustang cartridges? I would like to add that stuff to MESS already wink


Also that Toshiba Visicom you got listed sounds ultra-interesting...
Posted By: Guru

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/17/08 12:06 PM

Originally Posted By Curt Coder
[quote=Curt Coder]Guru, how about dumping that Mustang Telespiel RCA Studio clone and the RCA Studio / Mustang cartridges? I would like to add that stuff to MESS already wink
Dumping instructions here (5 Extracting the system ROM):
http://studio2.classicgaming.gamespy.com/techinfo.htm

yup, I know about that info. If you read it, it's not so simple.
The first line reads 'This is non-trivial'
I'll get to it but there's more important matters to attend to first.


Guru
Posted By: Guru

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/17/08 12:08 PM

Originally Posted By Curt Coder
Originally Posted By Curt Coder
Guru, how about dumping that Mustang Telespiel RCA Studio clone and the RCA Studio / Mustang cartridges? I would like to add that stuff to MESS already wink


Also that Toshiba Visicom you got listed sounds ultra-interesting...


IIRC the ROM is something strange. Some Toshiba part. I think I did some research on it with Stiletto, but I'll have to check my emails on that one.
Basically, it's non-trivial too.
Posted By: mangamuscle

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/20/08 06:17 AM

I do not know if this has already been discussed (searched the forum and the mess dumping project and saw no mention). Has anybody heard about the unitron macintosh clones? It seems very interesting because it seems that they reverse enginered the roms (the lack of standard mac ports and that apple didn't sued but asked the US goverment to prohibit their importation). Here is a link that at the very least shows the existance of those machines:

http://www.tabajara-labs.com.br/apple/mac_512/index.htm

Since so many brazilians visit this forume, I think maybe someone can get hold of these roms for proper dumping.
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/20/08 06:27 AM

Actually the Mac 128/512 had PC-style serial ports so those are identical. The Mac Plus introduced the round serial ports. The digital and analog boards are pretty close copies of Apple's.
Posted By: Vas Crabb

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/20/08 07:58 AM

Originally Posted By R. Belmont
Actually the Mac 128/512 had PC-style serial ports so those are identical. The Mac Plus introduced the round serial ports. The digital and analog boards are pretty close copies of Apple's.


Not really - they were 9 pin female connectors at the computer with balanced RS422 data signals (PC serial is 9 pin male with unbalanced RS232). Pinout can be found at http://www.hardwarebook.info/Macintosh_Serial
Posted By: Vas Crabb

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/20/08 08:03 AM

Originally Posted By mangamuscle
I do not know if this has already been discussed (searched the forum and the mess dumping project and saw no mention). Has anybody heard about the unitron macintosh clones? It seems very interesting because it seems that they reverse enginered the roms (the lack of standard mac ports and that apple didn't sued but asked the US goverment to prohibit their importation). Here is a link that at the very least shows the existance of those machines:

http://www.tabajara-labs.com.br/apple/mac_512/index.htm

Since so many brazilians visit this forume, I think maybe someone can get hold of these roms for proper dumping.


Apple supposedly got their hands on an early prototype that used a copy of the Macintosh ROM, and the US government accordingly blocked importation due to copyright infringement. The machines that were actually sold used a clone ROM developed by Unitron. It would be good to get a dump.
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/20/08 12:19 PM

I meant "PC-style" as in "female DB-9", which they clearly are :P
Posted By: Vas Crabb

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/20/08 01:02 PM

PC-style serial ports are male DB-9, and electrically incompatible. I don't see how the original Mac's serial ports are the same "style". (To be technical it's actually DE-9 as the letter after the D signifies the shell size.) As an aside, the Atari 850 interface box also had female 9-pin female serial ports on it, but they're RS232C (like PC serial ports) and use a different pinout again.
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/20/08 02:36 PM

Look, the OP said "the lack of standard Mac ports", while the picture shows the same ports in the same connector styles as on a real Apple Mac 128/512 (maybe they're electrically different and you can correct me again!). I refered to "PC style" because to our largely non-technical audience here they look like 9-pin PC serial ports, even though they're not directly compatible. That's my entire farging point.
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/20/08 07:50 PM

Originally Posted By Curt Coder
Guru, how about dumping that Mustang Telespiel RCA Studio clone and the RCA Studio / Mustang cartridges? I would like to add that stuff to MESS already wink


It's good to see the driver being worked on. I looked through your game list. Does anyone have evidence that Bingo was released for the Studio II? It's the only game I've never seen for sale. I haven't even seen a picture or heard anyone claim to have it. It might be that it was just released for the clones. Those games seem to be much harder to track down.
Posted By: Iggy Drougge

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/22/08 06:00 PM

I've dumped and submitted the Swedish ROM for Amstrad CPC6128. Different start screen, different keyboard layout, new checksum.
Posted By: Iggy Drougge

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/22/08 10:27 PM

This VZ200 on Ebay looks like it runs BASIC version 1.2. Has that been noted somewhere?
Posted By: mahlemiut

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/23/08 01:54 AM

Originally Posted By Iggy Drougge
I've dumped and submitted the Swedish ROM for Amstrad CPC6128. Different start screen, different keyboard layout, new checksum.

The keys appear to map the same way as with the other CPCs, so do you have a picture or diagram or something that shows the keyboard layout? This is so that there can be a proper emulated layout defined.
I've already plugged in the ROMs, and it appears to work as is, just have to clean it up a bit (ie: add CRCs and so on).
Posted By: Iggy Drougge

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/23/08 05:02 PM

I don't think the keyboard layout needs to be changed in the source, it's handled by the ROM.
Posted By: Curt Coder

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/23/08 05:50 PM

Originally Posted By Iggy Drougge
I don't think the keyboard layout needs to be changed in the source, it's handled by the ROM.


Oops, I went and added the set with correct keyboard layout without reading the forum. Sorry, Barry smile
Posted By: etabeta78

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/23/08 05:51 PM

it would be useful to know which keys were present on the original keyboard, because MESS offers both the possibility to use a remapped US keyboard (emulated keyboard) and the possibility to use your own keyboard if you have a swedish one (natural keyboard emulation) and we need to match accordingly the keys
Posted By: Iggy Drougge

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/23/08 05:54 PM

The emulated/natural terminology is indeed confusing.
Posted By: etabeta78

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/23/08 07:12 PM

names could later change and the new feature of clickable artwork could lead in future to images of the original keyboard on which you can click... but atm the best I can do is to point to the howto page wink

http://mess.toseciso.org/howto:mess

Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/27/08 06:00 AM

Absurdly expensive prototypes up on eBay:

http://shop.ebay.com/merchant/sample_seller_W0QQ_nkwZQQ_armrsZ1QQ_fromZQQ_mdoZ

I'd love to see Space Pinball for Virtual Boy dumped. It's an early version of Galactic Pinball with different tables. Also it seems that Toon Panic for the N64 hasn't been dumped (unless I missed the news).
Posted By: Guru

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/29/08 12:48 AM

Originally Posted By ranger_lennier
Absurdly expensive prototypes up on eBay:

http://shop.ebay.com/merchant/sample_seller_W0QQ_nkwZQQ_armrsZ1QQ_fromZQQ_mdoZ

I'd love to see Space Pinball for Virtual Boy dumped. It's an early version of Galactic Pinball with different tables. Also it seems that Toon Panic for the N64 hasn't been dumped (unless I missed the news).


I checked the last 10 items sold by that seller and they went for ~$30~$50~$70. Looks like the seller is pulling his 2" appendage expecting to get $3500 for that junk.



Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/30/08 09:07 PM

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Tomy-Pyuuta-Jr-Con...1742.m153.l1262 - Never even knew this existed, I mean I knew the Pyuuta existed but not a consolized version
Posted By: judge

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 10/01/08 08:37 AM

Originally Posted By incog
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Tomy-Pyuuta-Jr-Con...1742.m153.l1262 - Never even knew this existed, I mean I knew the Pyuuta existed but not a consolized version


Tech info here:
http://www2.odn.ne.jp/~haf09260/PyuutaJR/EnrPtj.htm and http://www2.odn.ne.jp/~haf09260/Pyuuta/EnrPt.htm
Posted By: Firewave

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 10/09/08 08:29 AM

Yesterday I saw a GameMaster MK X in a second hand store. I will get it later today. Incong pointed me to this page with information about it:

http://www.woen.info/en/pirate/mastergamesmkx.html?PHPSESSID=0707e356a408db53e14b7745af34ae8f

The packaging looks a bit different, but seems to be identical to the one I saw. A bit weird to be ripping the SNES design and having it play NES games.
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 10/09/08 08:21 PM

I was just about to dig up this thread smile

Check out all these carts for the OneStation and the MD Max, handheld consoles that only run pirate games. The typos in the game names and the ripped off box art is hilarious.

http://www.dealextreme.com/products.dx/category.607


I dont remember Arnie being in Final fight


Totally Rad.

There are carts for another Handheld on that site too, the Cool Boy.

The carts are very cheap but it looks like all the interesting ones are sold out, I've already slurped all the images and info from this site to catalouge all the carts at a later date. smile

Edit: I won this auction earlier today too, broken but dead cheap. Should be easy to dump fomr looking at this.
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 10/09/08 11:42 PM

Those are hilarious - never mind emulating the games, I want to see more of the boxes ;-)
Posted By: Guru

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 10/10/08 07:07 AM

Quote:
I won this auction earlier today too, broken but dead cheap. Should be easy to dump fomr looking at this.


yeah, should be easy as long as you have $20k worth of surface mount equipment ;-)

I assume that will find it's way over the Pacific Ocean to .au eventually?
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 10/10/08 02:08 PM

Yup, I'll send it you as soon as I get it, I won't need it back, its knackered.

It's a seriously rare little machine (I've seen them go for ~£200, I picked it up for under £2), the American version, the Sega CDX has already been dumped but I think all the Sega CD variants were dumped using a transfer cable. As this unit is creamed and wont spin up a disc that method is out of the picture.
Posted By: Guru

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 10/12/08 03:47 PM

Originally Posted By incog
Yup, I'll send it you as soon as I get it, I won't need it back, its knackered.

It's a seriously rare little machine (I've seen them go for ~£200, I picked it up for under £2), the American version, the Sega CDX has already been dumped but I think all the Sega CD variants were dumped using a transfer cable. As this unit is creamed and wont spin up a disc that method is out of the picture.


it seems the cable is only for dumping cartridges? Those shouldn't be a problem for me, they can be dumped the regular way (open and dump ROMs individually). That's assuming someone gets some for dumping and there are some we need.
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 10/12/08 04:22 PM

It dumps the BIOs too, but this system is creamed.

Did the playdia land on your doorstep yet?
Posted By: Firewave

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 10/13/08 08:45 AM

I opened up that NES clone thingy and I was quite surprised to see, that iit takes it's built-in games from another cart slot on the back of the main board. Unfortunately the interesting chips are covered in epoxy.

Other things I see are a 26.601712 MHz thingy, a Harris chip with "CD4066BE" and "G 9047" on it, another board to the reset and power button as well as (original!) NES controller ports, yet another board for the power and video jacks and the main board has a fabrication date of 96.7.21.

I assume I have to send the main board and the cart to Guru.
Posted By: Guru

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 10/13/08 11:52 PM

Originally Posted By incog
It dumps the BIOs too, but this system is creamed.

Did the playdia land on your doorstep yet?


yeah, the Playdia arrived.

Is the creamed thingy using a ROM for the BIOS? Can it be dumped the normal way if removed?


Posted By: mellery

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 10/19/08 09:05 PM

I've added some pcb photos to the dumping page, any news on reading the tms1000?
Posted By: Lord Nightmare

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 10/20/08 07:30 AM

tms1000? not really. we did figure out how to read at least a little data out of the tms0980-like chip used on the speak and spell using one of the speak-and-spell modded chip specific test pins, but that doesn't give us rom data (just tells us current PC), and it only works on the special speak and spell chip, not on normal tms1000/1200/1100/1300/0980 chips.

LN
Posted By: ht1848

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 10/28/08 07:13 PM

The Bad/Missing Page has this listed:

Code:
Mega STE

    * tos206.img - baddump
    * tos205.img - nodump
    * tos202.img - nodump


Is that this? 2.06 chips on Ebay
Posted By: Curt Coder

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 10/29/08 12:22 PM

Originally Posted By ht1848
The Bad/Missing Page has this listed:

Code:
Mega STE

    * tos206.img - baddump
    * tos205.img - nodump
    * tos202.img - nodump


Is that this? 2.06 chips on Ebay


That's the one. It is marked as bad dump because it really has 2 chips as you can see in the auction.
Posted By: mellery

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/13/08 02:27 PM

Theres a V-Tech preComputer 1000 for 3-4 bucks at the thrift shop. Has it been dumped for MESS? Is it worth getting even if it is dumped already?
Posted By: Lord Nightmare

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/13/08 10:16 PM

yes, its a needed dump. the precomputer fits somewhere between the Laser (a vtech subbrand) compumate 2 or 3 or 5 and the later vtech kids computers. Its probably z80 based.

LN
Posted By: mellery

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/16/08 01:22 PM

rats, someone else bought it. I'll keep an eye out for one
Posted By: ReadOnly

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/18/08 03:00 PM

Any plan from the MESS team for lossless FDS disks backup?

Or are we just going to let the FDS die?

I have stockpiled sealed disks and am still waiting for a backup solution.

If something new comes out please send me a PM.
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/18/08 03:33 PM

I thought No-Intro was working on clean FDS dumps.
Posted By: etabeta78

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/18/08 04:03 PM

I guess nointro manages to collect/find clean dumps in .fds format

OP probably refers to the introduction of a better format...

there were some discussions on irc with Lord Nightmare about a raw format for floppies (necessary to correctly preserve some nasty copy protections), but I have no idea if it's been abandoned or not.
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/18/08 04:29 PM

I don't buy that FDS needs a lower-level format. AFAIK none of the discs had any sort of non-standard format or copy protection so a lower-level reproduction just ends up duplicating data across all the dumps. Emulating the hardware itself at a lower level's not a bad idea, but you can generate the necessary low-level data from the existing dumps with perfect accuracy since the disc format's always the same.

Computers are of course another story entirely.
Posted By: ReadOnly

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/19/08 12:02 PM

Current FDS format isn't lossless, it misses GAP and even checksum data. That's why I dropped the FDS redumps. I felt like all our efforts were vain. We were axpecting a new lossless copier from someone @ nesdev, but it seems his project was dropped (I don't know the details but it appears his prototype couldn't make lossless copies.)

The current fds emulation will never achieve accuracy without the missing data from the disks, and Martin knows that. Our last resort would now be someone from the MESS team to build a new lossless copier. Right now I am very worried about the preservation status of the FDS.

Originally Posted By R. Belmont
I don't buy that FDS needs a lower-level format. AFAIK none of the discs had any sort of non-standard format or copy protection so a lower-level reproduction just ends up duplicating data across all the dumps. Emulating the hardware itself at a lower level's not a bad idea, but you can generate the necessary low-level data from the existing dumps with perfect accuracy since the disc format's always the same.

Computers are of course another story entirely.
Are you 100% sure about this? According to kyuusaku it isn't possible to generate the data from existing dumps.

Check 3rd post here:
http://nesdev.parodius.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=3410
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/19/08 01:53 PM

His argument is approximately that since nobody's compared a dump to a "reconstructed" disc you can't generate the data. I'm not buying that until someone's able to actually do the test.
Posted By: MooglyGuy

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/19/08 07:01 PM

For what it's worth, I'm currently scouring LinkedIn and digging up as many contacts as I can find in order to preserve the myriad machines that never hit the home market. My main aim is to get Sun and SGI on board with releasing hardware-level documentation for their oldest machines (think the original Sun workstations, the SGI IRIS x000 series, the original SGI Personal IRIS series, etc.) to people who are interested in emulating them.

The way I see it is this: The original Sun machines and the majority of SGI machines are based around CPUs that we already have cores for. The original SGI and Sun machines were based around the Motorola 68000 through the 68020, and we have a MIPS R5000 core, which means that we can theoretically support all the way up to the SGI O2 with proper documentation of the way the rest of the hardware works.

Home computers are dramatically over-represented as far as emulators go. Given the myriad hardware-accurate Commodore 64 emulators, the C64 is in no major danger of ever being lost to bit rot, but when talking about modern SGI machines that typically find their way only into the hands of non-emulation-savvy people, or when talking about early Sun and SGI machines that have almost all been either scrapped or just didn't sell widely to begin with, there's a very real danger that when the last IRIS machine no longer powers up, there'll be nothing to keep it alive.

I'm hoping that it will be possible to convince Sun and SGI, and hopefully DEC, HP, and other high-end computing companies eventually, that in the case of these ancient systems that have long since been End-Of-Lifed, they stand nothing to lose and geek goodwill to gain by releasing the hardware-level documentation to people interested in emulating the systems.

Really, if RB can iron out how to do interruptible instructions on the 680x0 series (necessary for MMU emulation) and Aaron, myself, RB, or other folks can iron out the remaining CPU and MMU bugs in the MIPS core, hardware-level docs would make emulating these machines straightforward, albeit slow.

On a similar subject, I'm currently trying to dig up info on the Pixar Image Computer, and possibly see if anyone has any software dumps, ROM dumps, and hardware-level documentation. You'd think that Pixar would be a hip enough company that they'd be all for someone trying to preserve their heritage. Some information that I've already dug up that isn't published anywhere else:

Quote:

"The Pixar Image Computer was a bit-slice implementation built of AMD 2900 components and I don't remember where the multiplier chip came from. It did not have an instruction set, just a microword which was the concatenation of the control registers for all of the various bit-slice components. Its unique attributes were that it would work SIMD on RGBA, and that it had a tiled memory access that accessed lines in X or Y, or small rectangles, with equal speed. This was the first use of the Porter-Duff image compositing algebra and pixels pre-multiplied by Alpha, as far as I'm aware. The SIMD feature is well represented by the various compositing instruction sets in Intel processors and their ilk. If anyone's doing tiled memory, it's probably in a graphics card. The Pixar II had the same "CHAP" CPU as the Pixar I. There was also a floating-point version of the CHAP called the FLAP, which was prototyped but did not go into production. CHAP was fixed-point (really integer)."
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/19/08 07:23 PM

It's not quite as dire as it used to be, at least. tme can boot Sun 2, Sun 3, and SparcStation 2 emulations all the way into userland on NetBSD. simh covers a lot of the pre-modern machines pretty admirably (up to and including the VAX), and GXemul's coverage of late 80s and early 90s workstations is starting to get quite interesting now that the MC88000 is working (yes, that's eighty-eight, the chip Apple rejected when they went PPC).

As for Pixar, I'll note that Apple's developer notes on new systems suddenly stopped containing useful technical information almost immediately after Jobs came back. Not that the hardware of Macs after that point (basically NewWorld, G4, G5, and the Intel systems) isn't almost ludicrously well known, but it's still not nice.
Posted By: MooglyGuy

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/19/08 08:27 PM

I'd say it's still pretty dire. GXemul very rarely actually emulates the boot ROM in a system, or even well enough that plugging in a boot ROM would work right. It is to late 80's and early 90's workstations what Basilisk II is to 680x0 Macs, at least the last time I looked at it. I haven't looked at tme, but I consider the hallmark of proper emulation to be the ability to run the original OS that came with the system, so NetBSD really nonpluses me. It was probably based off of NetBSD's kernel headers. You and I got Gentoo booting a little ways on the Indy thanks to similar sources, but the system's peripheral chips still aren't emulated worth a shit, for the most part.

Ultimately, I feel that MESS needs to step up to the plate and start attempting to support these high-end machines, because as you're seeing, other emulators are stepping in to fill the vacuum, and I prefer monolithic emulators to individual ones.

Edit: As for the Pixar, I submit that Apple stopped documenting the internals because of Jobs' paranoia about cloning. Given their engineering model that Apple used for all Old World PowerMacs, the hardware was pretty much constant from the Macintosh II all the way up to the last Old World PowerMac G3. If they released technical docs on one of them, they'd have ended up opening the doors for companies to clone the PowerMacs for years to come. Say what you like about whether Apple are monopolizing their hardware, they did a damn good job at preventing unauthorized clones until the very end of the PowerMacs' life spans.

The Pixar Image Computer was almost a one-of-a-kind piece of hardware, with less than 5,000 units ever being sold. It has long since been abandoned to the point of having all of its hardware department sold off to a company that went Chapter 11 a year later. If there's anyone who still has documentation on the PIC and P-II, it's the folks at Pixar. If there's anyone who probably doesn't care whatsoever who clones the PIC and P-II these days, it's the folks at Pixar.
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/19/08 08:43 PM

GXemul and tme both do actual hardware emulation and both run real boot PROMs and real operating systems (I'm told tme runs SunOS if you can find an install tape image). The DECstation driver on GXemul will run the boot PROM all the way into Linux, BSD, Ultrix, Sprite, or OSF-1 last I checked.

Basilisk II will fall over and catch fire if presented with A/UX or linux-m68k. And I would imagine turning on System 7's "virtual memory" option is also fun for the whole family since they can't restart instructions on a page fault.

That all said, yeah, I'd like us to be doing it too. But at least it's being done, and more emulators means more chance of ROMs and software turning up.

And keep an eye on Bitsavers - the technical and user manual for the first MIPS-branded workstation (not the Magnum, the one before that with an R2000 and ISA slots (!)) showed up recently. If we had boot ROM and software install images it'd be fairly easy to emulate.

ETA: I'm aware of the Mac clone thing. One of the manuals on Apple's archive page has the technical info on the specific logic board design they licensed to the clone makers. The irony is that the NewWorld and later PowerPC machines finally had good enough Open Firmware implementations to where they'd pretty much tell you their specs once you get into the boot PROM monitor.
Posted By: MooglyGuy

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/23/08 11:49 PM

Think there'd be anything worth buying in this group? It's unfortunate that the guy only wants to let everything go as a lot.

http://albany.craigslist.org/sys/953876921.html
Posted By: Lord Nightmare

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/24/08 05:24 PM

I'd pitch in $100 but I can only afford $20 right now... seems I ran my bank account down lower than I thought frown

LN
Posted By: ReadOnly

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/30/08 02:05 AM

Originally Posted By R. Belmont
His argument is approximately that since nobody's compared a dump to a "reconstructed" disc you can't generate the data. I'm not buying that until someone's able to actually do the test.



I agree for the most part, however I am afraid he is right on the checksum part. Nothing is guaranteeing that disks had good checksums. Actually many NES roms have a bad checksum due to lazy or careless programmers.
Posted By: ht1848

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/30/08 08:06 PM

Quote:
It's not quite as dire as it used to be, at least. tme can boot Sun 2, Sun 3, and SparcStation 2 emulations all the way into userland on NetBSD. simh covers a lot of the pre-modern machines pretty admirably (up to and including the VAX), and GXemul's coverage of late 80s and early 90s workstations is starting to get quite interesting now that the MC88000 is working (yes, that's eighty-eight, the chip Apple rejected when they went PPC).


Would it be good to document some of these systems in MESS with just a skeleton driver that defines the roms? My thought is that it will 1) help preserve the files by creating a standard(e.g. like the MAME set), 2) it will help identify missing version gaps or bad dumps and it could help clean up the roms on certain ftp sites that are of unknown status.

Maybe start small and only include stuff Guru has dumped and is known good or the GBA driver (just the rom definition not the meat). The Con would be that there would be potentially many more drivers to keep an eye on as the core changes. Hopefully they would be simple enough to not require to much attention.

For example I just noticed one of the MESS HP48 roms maybe different from the set provided by HPcalc.org . Could be an alt version or a bad dump (or I could have grabbed the wrong file). I still need to double check and confirm, I'll bug this later.

2nd thought - Guru had the idea to combine all the by company Dumping Needed link pages on to one page. Sure it will make for a very long page, but much easier to search and print out. Basically make it more like Guru's page, yea or nea? I'll do it unless I get some objection to it (Duke esp.?)
Posted By: Duke

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/30/08 08:39 PM

No problem from my side, maybe you could create it at dumping:wanted or something?
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/31/08 05:16 AM

Maybe the long list could be automatically generated from the current set of pages.
Posted By: Antoine Mine

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 01/01/09 09:34 PM

Originally Posted By ht1848

For example I just noticed one of the MESS HP48 roms maybe different from the set provided by HPcalc.org . Could be an alt version or a bad dump (or I could have grabbed the wrong file). I still need to double check and confirm, I'll bug this later.

HP48 memory addressing unit is 4-bit (a nibble).
For MESS ROM files, I've used the convention to pack two nibbles in each byte, with the first nibble (lowest ROM address) in the least significant part of the byte.
Most ROMs on HPcalc.org use the same convention. Except GX revision P and SX revision D (if I remember correctly) that pack the other way.
The following simple test seems to work for all ROM revisions: if the first byte reads 0x32, it's OK; if it reads 0x23, you need to swap the two nibbles of each byte before feeding the ROM to MESS.
This is actually documented in src/mess/drivers/hp48.c.

The HP48s actually work (or rather, worked before 0.128) and mainly lack up-to-date documentation.
Posted By: Lord Nightmare

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 01/01/09 11:08 PM

Most drivers in mame which deal with 4 bit roms 0-pad them(i.e. 0b00001010) for the exact reason you describe (that the packing could be in any order)
They end up twice as long but you always have the rom in the proper order.

LN
Posted By: Vas Crabb

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 01/02/09 07:10 AM

Despite still having nibble-addressable memory, the data bus in the second generation Saturn CPUs (used in the HP-48G and HP-49G) have an 8-bit data bus. It's an 8-bit ROM - not a 4-bit ROM. The nibble order should match what's in the actual ROM on the device.
Posted By: Guru

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 01/03/09 03:53 PM

Originally Posted By incog on Oct. 10th, 2008

I won this auction earlier today too, broken but dead cheap. Should be easy to dump fomr looking at this.


I don't recall seeing this roll up at my door? Or is it on a slow camel via Egypt?


Guru
Posted By: MooglyGuy

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 01/08/09 07:05 PM

I was looking for this one company's demoreel - the company's capabilities aren't particularly impressive, but anything being set to Beastie Boys' "Sabotage" is inherently better - and I ran across something interest: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P56Wzrdm9us

We've all heard of the Fairlight CMI, at least we all should have, but I'd never heard of the Fairlight CVI before! Anyone work in the A/V business and could get ahold of one of these suckers for dumping?

Edit: Hey, I found the video I was looking for - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHUHSEbC4Ik - totally "budget"-quality CG, but props to them for using Sabotage as the backing track. laugh
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 01/09/09 08:07 AM

Originally Posted By Guru
Originally Posted By incog on Oct. 10th, 2008

I won this auction earlier today too, broken but dead cheap. Should be easy to dump fomr looking at this.


I don't recall seeing this roll up at my door? Or is it on a slow camel via Egypt?


Guru


Yeah, I haven't got around to mailing it off yet. I should really clear up some of this junk and update my wiki page.

I haven't really bought anything note worthy lately, just some shitty NES-in-a-pad junk, a few GB pirate carts and some crap called a NetJet, though I haven't opened it up to have a look... it's been here months.
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 01/12/09 01:58 PM

Guru's dumped the Toshiba Visicom ROM:

http://www.mameworld.net/gurudumps/

For those keeping score, that's a clone of the RCA Studio II, and the first system released in Japan that used ROM carts.

Be on the lookout for more Studio II related news.
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 01/30/09 12:33 AM

Dumped an Amstrad PPC 640 today, a PC compatible using a NEC V30 cpu.

I also got bored and dumped the bios from an old (circa 1999) celeron motherboard.
Posted By: JoJo

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 01/30/09 09:08 AM

Originally Posted By incog
Dumped an Amstrad PPC 640 today, a PC compatible using a NEC V30 cpu.


Differences from the BIOS currently used by MESS? Have you dumped also character/video BIOS ROMs (if any?)
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 01/30/09 12:15 PM

Yup, the char rom is 40109.ic159

Edit: Just dumped the VTech PreComputer 2000 now too (damn soldered in chips, why cant they all be socketed)
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 02/12/09 01:54 PM

Hey RangerLennier, remember when we bought those 2 large and strange looking Super Famicom Box carts, turns out there's a system now on eBay.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270339285136

Thought you might want to see what it looks like smile
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 02/13/09 04:43 AM

And is needed for BIOS dumping too, unless someone else has one available. But $300 plus shipping is a little pricey.
Posted By: Sourraund

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 02/20/09 11:07 AM

Originally Posted By incog
Originally Posted By Guru
Originally Posted By ht1848
Dumping page is looking good. Still need to think about how to rally the supporters if something available comes up or how to get them dumped (Is the default answer send to Guru?).

http://cgi.ebay.com/BANDAI-PLAYDIA-MINT-...1QQcmdZViewItem

Bandai playdia system on ebay right now. no bids yet. Not sure how rare it is...so can't say it is worth it or not. Anyone know?


The default answer is get it yourself, pull it apart and then post pics here and someone will put their hand up. If that fails or it's using surface mounted chips and soldered-in chips, I'll take care of it.


Guru


I've already cracked open and scanned a Playdia pcb. It's a bizarre mix of 2 8-bit mcus and a custom video chip. It's basically a VCD player that overlays shitty graphics over the video.

http://xs231.xs.to/xs231/08381/playdia-pcb203.jpg

It's still taken apart and I cant remember how to put it back together, the case is broken due to it biting a chunk out of my thumb. smirk

If you need it, it's yours to keep/decap/sacrifice to the elder gods. I've already dumped an assload of CD's for it.

Oh, and the Casio Loopy and carts I sent you are yours to abuse, It was a spare heh.


The Emulation of the Playdia will be great!
It is a challenge, a wonderful challenge. I hope soon to get emulate the console of Bandai smile

Thanks Guru!

PD: Sorry, my english is very bad...
Posted By: MooglyGuy

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 02/20/09 12:55 PM

Originally Posted By Sourraund
I hope soon to get emulate the console of Bandai smile


It's understandable that you probably did not get the full meaning of Guru's or incog's posts, but it is unlikely that emulation of it will happen "soon", if ever.
Posted By: Sourraund

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 02/20/09 12:59 PM

Originally Posted By MooglyGuy
Originally Posted By Sourraund
I hope soon to get emulate the console of Bandai smile


It's understandable that you probably did not get the full meaning of Guru's or incog's posts, but it is unlikely that emulation of it will happen "soon", if ever.


Ok, thanks.
Posted By: MooglyGuy

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 02/20/09 05:56 PM

Originally Posted By Sourraund
Originally Posted By MooglyGuy
It's understandable that you probably did not get the full meaning of Guru's or incog's posts, but it is unlikely that emulation of it will happen "soon", if ever.


Ok, thanks.


No worries. The problem is that the Playdia's BIOS is contained inside chips that cannot be dumped in a normal way. They will need to be decapped, which does not guarantee success.
Posted By: Jonathan Wilson

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/10/09 11:21 PM

I have a Casio CFX-9850G calculator. Is there anything in this device that can be dumped? Has it already been dumped? (I dont follow calculator emulation)
Posted By: Guru

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/12/09 06:57 AM

Originally Posted By Jonathan Wilson
I have a Casio CFX-9850G calculator. Is there anything in this device that can be dumped? Has it already been dumped? (I dont follow calculator emulation)


probably nobody knows. open it up and take a photo of the PCB inside and post it here and we'll tell you more.
Posted By: Playdia

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/14/09 02:12 PM

Maybe I can help with the emulation of the Playdia.
Guru please contact me and especially you do not leave your idea of emulating the Playdia console.
Posted By: Lord Nightmare

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/15/09 03:17 AM

Instructions for emulating pladia:
step 1: decap mcu
step 2: read rom out of mcu
step 3: figure out what cpu mcu is
step 4: write emulator for said cpu
step 5: submit cpu core to mame/mess
step 6: write driver for playdia
step 7: submit driver to mess


LN
Posted By: Jonathan Wilson

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/15/09 10:59 AM

I found this link
http://brej.org/inside/casio9850g/index.html
It looks like the calculator uses a custom blob for most of the logic. I doubt there is anything worth dumping (unless the black blob happens to have a CPU core with the programming for it being on the surface-mount memory chip)

Not going to bother with this (the only features of this calculator is a simple programming language (its not BASIC but its about as simple if not simpler).

Its not like the HP or TI calculators which have proper CPUs and ASM programming and stuff in them.
Posted By: Guru

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/15/09 11:36 AM

Originally Posted By Jonathan Wilson
I found this link
http://brej.org/inside/casio9850g/index.html
It looks like the calculator uses a custom blob for most of the logic. I doubt there is anything worth dumping (unless the black blob happens to have a CPU core with the programming for it being on the surface-mount memory chip)

Not going to bother with this (the only features of this calculator is a simple programming language (its not BASIC but its about as simple if not simpler).


I personally think this needs to go further. If it's programmable then it has a CPU and a program. The blob is likely a CPU of some sort and the smd chip is a ROM IMHO.
If you want to send it here I'll take a look. First, if you can open it up and give us the number on the smd chip.
Posted By: judge

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/15/09 12:34 PM

Some 9850 related information: http://prg.rkk.cz/~mpoupe/ . According to this page there's a 512KB rom in a cfx9850g.

Apparently it has a 4.3mhz clock: http://forum.effizienzgurus.de/f47/casio-cfx-9850-cpu-overclocking-t451.html
Posted By: Guru

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/15/09 01:13 PM

Originally Posted By judge
Some 9850 related information: http://prg.rkk.cz/~mpoupe/ . According to this page there's a 512KB rom in a cfx9850g


it looks like that guy upgraded his ROM. So he probably has dumped it already, or his friend has anyway. Someone should contact him and see if we can get the dump.
Posted By: F-3582

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/15/09 10:15 PM

I just contacted the guy. Gonna let ya know if he's dumped anything. As far as I know there are at least two revisions of the ROM (I own a calculator with the older version and my brother has the newer model *I think*).
Posted By: F-3582

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/16/09 01:12 PM

First response: He believes that he once did dump the ROM (didn't mention the version, though) and he is going to look for it.
Posted By: F-3582

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/16/09 10:11 PM

Second response: A file. Apparently he only has the first revision dumped. The second had a few more features, such as a number of pre-loaded applications. Who am I going to send this over?
Posted By: Justin

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/16/09 11:14 PM

E-mail it to npwoods, domain mess.org
Posted By: F-3582

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/16/09 11:34 PM

Sent.
Posted By: judge

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/17/09 06:22 PM

Thanks F-3582.

Now the real fun starts: figure out what cpu is inside.

It's most likely a Hitachi microcontroller.

cfx9800g: hd62119a02 - 100 pin package, 19 bit external address bus, 8 bit external data bus

cfx85gp, cfx9850g, fx970g: hcd62121a03 - 120 pin package, 21 bit external address bus, 8 bit external data bus

cfx9970g: hcd62121b03 - 120 pin package, 21 bit external address bus, 8 bit external data bus


for completeness:

fx9700ge, fx9700gh: hwd62096a03 - 302 pin package


Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/17/09 06:41 PM

If it's at all recent (1995+) it's probably an H8 of some sort.
Posted By: judge

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/17/09 07:36 PM

It doesn't seem to be H8. Almost like it's a predecessor of the H8. Those calculators seem to be from around that period though (1994+).

Posted By: F-3582

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 03/17/09 11:24 PM

PCB shots:

http://bcgsr.gmxhome.de/opentr/innen.htm
Posted By: Anna Wu

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/08/09 06:48 PM

Takeda Toshiya released a Sharp X1-Twin emulator. Never heard of this japanese computer before. It support Sharp X1 and NEC PC Engine.

Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/08/09 07:02 PM

X1 is the 8-bit predecessor to X68000. Although beyond being part of the same named series they don't have much in common smile X1-Twin was an X1 with a PC Engine built in (similar to the PCs with Megadrives in them).
Posted By: Anna Wu

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/09/09 07:00 AM

Originally Posted By R. Belmont
X1 is the 8-bit predecessor to X68000. Although beyond being part of the same named series they don't have much in common smile X1-Twin was an X1 with a PC Engine built in (similar to the PCs with Megadrives in them).


Thank you for the info, Arbee. smile

Very hard to test his other emulators. Because some very exotic old japanese machines where no published roms dumps exist.
Posted By: Vas Crabb

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/10/09 01:05 PM

Pete and I dumped an SGI Iris Indigo and a Burroughs bank teller terminal today. Who wants to talk about it?
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/10/09 01:13 PM

IP12 or IP20, and which revision?

And what's the hardware on the teller? In the US those were typically 386es running OS/2 for a while, nowadays it's either Linux or Windows.
Posted By: Vas Crabb

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/10/09 01:19 PM

It's a '94-model Iris Indigo with the R3000 CPU and ECC memory controllers on all the cards. Not sure which revision that makes it.

The teller machine is a real Burroughs terminal. Not a PC at all! 6809, tiny greenscreen on a stalk, onboard card reader and MICR/OCR unit, SNA in ROM, etc.
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/10/09 01:35 PM

Neat. I have a working R3000 Indigo here (and I believe it's dumped) but there are about infinite revisions of each of the SGI boot PROMs.
Posted By: Vas Crabb

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/10/09 01:41 PM

The label on the boot ROM chip in the SGI says "070-8088-002" on it.

Here are some pics of the Burroughs terminal, inside and out.
Posted By: ht1848

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/10/09 08:12 PM

Somehow it'd be nice to document what we have dumped but is sitting on random peoples hard drives. I keep thinking of some sort of bare bones driver that just lists basics like bios crc, rom version, generic info, but then it starts to sound like a testdriver and I stop thinking about it.

Carry on.
Posted By: etabeta78

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/10/09 08:25 PM

no, it's called skeleton driver.
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/10/09 08:45 PM

Yeah. Only Scooby-Doo is afraid of skeleton drivers. We have tons of 'em in MAME.
Posted By: mangamuscle

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/11/09 12:56 AM

Originally Posted By R. Belmont
Yeah. Only Scooby-Doo is afraid of skeleton drivers. We have tons of 'em in MAME.

Not to mention zombie drivers (those with more meat in them that claim for more "brains" but still fail to do anything worthwhile on screen)
Posted By: Jonathan Wilson

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/11/09 10:03 AM

Now that bank terminal seems like one of the more interesting things for MESS to emulate. Although you would have to simulate the central bank network somehow.
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/11/09 09:04 PM

Originally Posted By Jonathan Wilson
Now that bank terminal seems like one of the more interesting things for MESS to emulate. Although you would have to simulate the central bank network somehow.


and add printer support wink
Posted By: Jonathan Wilson

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/13/09 11:07 AM

Printer support would be nice for all kinds of other systems (including MAME machines that gave out tickets)
Posted By: etabeta78

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/13/09 11:25 AM

printers ARE supported...
Posted By: Vas Crabb

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/13/09 11:54 AM

At what level? We have what appears to be the character ROM for the printer in the terminal.
Posted By: Justin

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/13/09 04:41 PM

The MESS drivers that support printers output the bytes printed to a file you select, which only works very well if it's mostly ASCII.
Posted By: F-3582

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/13/09 07:55 PM

Wouldn't it be better if MESS created an image or Postscript file which could be sent to a printer afterwards? That way you could emulate different character sets and stuff (or bitmap fonts).
Posted By: Duke

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/13/09 08:01 PM

MESS outputs exactly what gets sent to the parallel port, so if you install a postscript printer (the amiga driver might already support that) you get a postscript file.
Posted By: Vas Crabb

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/13/09 09:13 PM

So MESS doesn't have printer support. It just supports dumping parallel port output to a file.
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/13/09 09:26 PM

Right. Once it's possible to actually run MACHINE_DRIVERs in parallel (Aaron would know the remaining obstacles here) we need firmware dumps from like an Epson FX-80 or some similar printer that had wide support on the early micros.
Posted By: ht1848

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/13/09 10:21 PM

Just to stay in sync with out MAME brothers (they call us a sister project in their faq but whatever)...they seem to be forming some sort of Voltron like Dumping Union. With some collaboration it should be a great thing for the community and give breaks to those who deserve them and let some new people help out where they can. All good things.

Maybe MESS dumping project needs a wicked cool logo to compete with that robot Smitdogg made, like a weasel holding some rom chips in a raised fist while riding on the back of a salmon or something to that effect...

ok back super interesting printer rom dumping discussion...go!
Posted By: Duke

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/14/09 10:02 AM

Originally Posted By Vas Crabb
So MESS doesn't have printer support. It just supports dumping parallel port output to a file.

Well, it's not as simple as that. MESS emulates the centronics interface, otherwise it wouldn't get much data.
Posted By: Vas Crabb

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/14/09 10:36 AM

Sigh. Printers are so much more than Centronics interfaces. There are plenty of ways to have printers without Centronics and Centronics without printers. HLE of a generic Centronics device may be OK for 8-bit micros, but the machine that we were talking about when we brought it up has an onboard thermal printer that's apparently being fed pin patterns and stepper commands directly. No Centronics in sight, and the character data doesn't go near the printer.

When I think of "printer support" I'm imagining a generic system for emulating a class of printers - e.g. a pin-based printer system, where you could declare the number/spacing of pins, carriage travel and step resolution and paper feed step resolution. This could be used to generically emulate most dot matrix and thermal printers.

I know you're waiting for my submission. I'd like to help out, but time is always at a premium frown
Posted By: Duke

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/14/09 11:02 AM

Yes, I know all of that, I was just pointing out that we do a bit more then just outputting the bytes.

I would love to get better printer support, for example the AIM-65 has an onboard thermal printer.
Posted By: F-3582

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/15/09 12:09 AM

Originally Posted By Duke
MESS outputs exactly what gets sent to the parallel port, so if you install a postscript printer (the amiga driver might already support that) you get a postscript file.


I (and Vas, probably, too), was thinking about creating an output file that printers nowadays would understand. Sure, there are some corner cases where MESS would send an actual postscript file to the parallel port and yes, some direct connection to an attached twenty-years old printer through a custom home-made printer interface is cool, too, but actually most people don't have that around and still would like to see what their twenty-years old word processor would have printed.
Posted By: etabeta78

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/15/09 07:41 AM

I guess we should have two separate core features here. One built into the core which gets the raw output the original system would have sent (and that would in principle work if you were able to interface the original printer to your PC), and one at the OSD level (or something like ledutil) that converts it to something (a PostScript or a PDF file) a modern printer can print.

I have no idea what the current MESS source does for the former part (the core one), but for sure there is no current code for the latter.
Posted By: Darkstar

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/15/09 09:48 AM

I guess the proper way to do it would be for MESS to simulate the printer as a separate machine which is connected to the "main" computer via a parallel/serial/whatever port. The "printer machine" could then use the original ROMs (font ROMs, machine code, whatever) to simulate printing to PDF/PS/PNG/SDL/whatever.

As RB said this will be possible once you can run multiple drivers in parallel. It would also benefit emulation of other systems/peripherals (the C64 comes to mind, where the floppy drive is actually a complete computer on its own)
Posted By: etabeta78

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/15/09 10:06 AM

to be fair, c64 floppies would already be possible (the drive CPU would load its rom exactly like the laserdisc players do in MAME lasergames)

the main problems is the lack of time and the various problems I encountered when I tried to hook up the floppy drive (huge slow down, problems synch-ing c64 & 1541, problems implementing correctly communications etc.)

I hope to be able to do some more work on it before next summer
Posted By: F-3582

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/15/09 10:43 PM

Err, have our PCs already gotten fast enough? I still recall this CCS64 FAQ entry which said that using a 1541 drive with any emulator is basically impossible for timing reasons. Or are you planning to make this an optional feature for users running an realtime OS?
Posted By: Duke

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/16/09 07:21 AM

We are not talking about connecting a real 1541, just emulating one along the C64.
Posted By: F-3582

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/16/09 11:14 AM

Sorry, misunderstanding on my side.
Posted By: Darkstar

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/18/09 03:55 PM

Connecting a real 1541 disk drive to the PC has long been possible, just google for XM1541. I used it years ago to get dumps of some copy-protected floppy disks.
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/18/09 04:19 PM

Yes, but those cables only can work 100% under DOS or Win9x. As per the CCS64 FAQ item linked they're at best unreliable on multitasking OSes like XP or Linux.
Posted By: John Elliott

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/19/09 04:31 PM

Originally Posted By R. Belmont
Right. Once it's possible to actually run MACHINE_DRIVERs in parallel (Aaron would know the remaining obstacles here) we need firmware dumps from like an Epson FX-80 or some similar printer that had wide support on the early micros.


I've got a firmware dump from an Amstrad DMP3160, which is supposed to be Epson compatible, if that's any help. The controller is a NEC D7810.
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/19/09 04:54 PM

That'd be cool. And I found out I meant "MX-80" smile
Posted By: Duke

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/19/09 09:10 PM

The 7810 seems to be a common CPU for printers, the Epson EX-800 and LX-800 also use it.
Posted By: Darkstar

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/21/09 08:48 PM

Originally Posted By R. Belmont
Yes, but those cables only can work 100% under DOS or Win9x. As per the CCS64 FAQ item linked they're at best unreliable on multitasking OSes like XP or Linux.

It's actually quite possible to get bit-perfect dumps in a multitasking OS nowadays (and write them back to disk). The timing is not that critical as it was a few years ago. Similar to the program that can dump Amiga disks on a standard PC FDC (I don't remember the name right now)

with OpenCBM and mnib (http://sourceforge.net/projects/opencbm and https://c64preservation.com/files/nibtools/readme.txt) I was actually able to dump an original (slightly damaged) copy-protected Electronic Arts game disk to the PC and write it back on a new floppy with the copy protection intact.

-Darkstar
Posted By: robcfg

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/21/09 10:01 PM

Originally Posted By Darkstar
Similar to the program that can dump Amiga disks on a standard PC FDC (I don't remember the name right now)


I think it's Omniflop the one you're talking about.

It reads lots of formats like the Archimedes 1.6Mb ADFS disks, and Amiga disks.
Posted By: Curt Coder

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/22/09 06:55 AM

Originally Posted By Darkstar
with OpenCBM and mnib (http://sourceforge.net/projects/opencbm and https://c64preservation.com/files/nibtools/readme.txt) I was actually able to dump an original (slightly damaged) copy-protected Electronic Arts game disk to the PC and write it back on a new floppy with the copy protection intact.


Yes, I've dumped tens of original C64 disk games using an XA1541 cable and nibread.

What we need though is support for the NIB images in MESS smile
Posted By: mangamuscle

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/22/09 01:26 PM

Ins't there already a g64 format for 1541 images that includes ALL the disk GCR information.
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/22/09 01:31 PM

Depends. There are several "archival" formats that are secret and proprietary. If that's one of 'em it's not useful for MESS.
Posted By: Lord Nightmare

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/22/09 04:04 PM

The only 'secret' archival format I know of offhand is the CAPS/SPS one. g64 is quite open, the spec can be found at http://www.unusedino.de/ec64/technical/formats/g64.html

(IIRC there's another format that isn't open YET because its specs/documentation isn't finished, but it will be open soon (or if you bother the author you can get preliminary docs). I think its listed on the formats page on the mess wiki. I don't recall which format it is offhand.)

LN
Posted By: Darkstar

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/22/09 04:17 PM

The program I meant was "disk2fdi", http://www.oldskool.org/disk2fdi/trial.html

Shareware/proprietary, but IIRC it was the first to actually read Amiga disks on a standard PC floppy controller.

I heard that the CAPS format will be opened as soon as it's final (and it's supposed to be so generic that all other systems could adopt it), but this might take some years now.

IMHO a generic "raw" floppy disk file format that is a superset of all existing formats (which can represent disks from all formats, MFM/GCR/..., on the lowest level possible) would be a good thing for preservation. At the moment, every system has its own "preservation"-subgroup who each cook their own disk format.

The problem is: someone needs to do it. And there's not really a need for it right now.

-Darkstar
Posted By: Lord Nightmare

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/22/09 08:51 PM

darkstar: the fdi disk format is open, though disk2fdi obviously is not.
Format specs are at http://www.oldskool.org/disk2fdi/files/FDISPEC.pdf

LN
Posted By: etabeta78

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/23/09 06:44 PM

Originally Posted By Darkstar
IMHO a generic "raw" floppy disk file format that is a superset of all existing formats (which can represent disks from all formats, MFM/GCR/..., on the lowest level possible) would be a good thing for preservation. At the moment, every system has its own "preservation"-subgroup who each cook their own disk format.


I completely agree with you and I'd love to see it implemented. MESS converts every tape format to wav at loading. We should do something similar with every floppy format in the core.

Originally Posted By Darkstar
The problem is: someone needs to do it.


And here's the problem. I currently know close to nothing about floppy inner structure and I have basically zero time for emulation work (my spare time is barely enough for much easier tasks).

Originally Posted By Darkstar
And there's not really a need for it right now.


This is not completely true. it would make copy protections much easier to emulate.
Posted By: Darkstar

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/23/09 07:51 PM

Originally Posted By etabeta78
Originally Posted By Darkstar
The problem is: someone needs to do it.


And here's the problem. I currently know close to nothing about floppy inner structure and I have basically zero time for emulation work (my spare time is barely enough for much easier tasks).


Same here. I know quite a bit about, for example, the C64 Floppy internals (at least I keep telling myself that). But there are practically endless possibilities that you have to support (and you have to do it in a way to extend it later if you find some new formats). GCR, Sync-bits and sector-gaps are among the easiest. There's also inter-track skew (i.e. whether tracks are aligned or not), halftracks, "FAT" tracks (that's what they're called on the Amiga I think), purposely-broken tracks/sectors, variable bitrate/speed tracks, and so on. Just read the CAPS/SPS WIP entries to get a glimpse on what they have to handle just for the Amiga.

I don't really want to think about how such a format would have to be done, it makes my head hurt smile

-Darkstar
Posted By: Justin

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/24/09 05:11 AM

Well the MESS philosophy is basically to go low-level and do what the hardware does, so rather than engineering some insane format to handle every possible eventuality I would say just use raw waveforms as stored on the magnetic medium and have the emulation for each type of floppy controller worry about interpreting data out of that.
Posted By: judge

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/24/09 06:02 AM

For c64 we'd have to add the cpu used in the floppy drive too. I guess that got abused heavily back in the days.

Low-level for floppies may make things slow; then again, floppies were pretty slow wink
Posted By: etabeta78

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/24/09 06:38 AM

Originally Posted By judge
For c64 we'd have to add the cpu used in the floppy drive too.


it's been in the work since last summer, but I was only able to make the driver crawl without even implement completely communications (as a result, no working floppy AND drivers at 50% of speed frown )

sooner or later I'll go back to 1541 drives...
Posted By: Darkstar

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/24/09 10:50 AM

Originally Posted By Justin
Well the MESS philosophy is basically to go low-level and do what the hardware does, so rather than engineering some insane format to handle every possible eventuality I would say just use raw waveforms as stored on the magnetic medium and have the emulation for each type of floppy controller worry about interpreting data out of that.

That's hard to do with stock hardware. For example some copy protections use "weak" sectors/tracks, i.e. unformatted data (SPS calls them flakey bits). They expect the data they read to be somewhat random. It might be possible to do that with an 8-bit ADC connected to a floppy head but then you'd have to hack a floppy disk drive to dump a disk, and only a handful people would be able to do that. This might work for MAME, where only a "small" number of game ROMs exist, but for the millions of floppy disks in existence it would probably be next to impossible to get them dumped within the lifetime of the universe ;-)

Therefore I think their way (unsing an analyzer program to determin what data is supposed to be in each track) isn't *that* bad... this doesn't, however, solve the problem of a closed-source file format and IO library frown
Posted By: Lord Nightmare

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/24/09 05:42 PM

the catweasel mk3 or mk4 hardware, plus the 'cw' package for linux offers some analysis capability, but is only able to capture 128k of flux delta data per track due to limited ram on the catweasel card itself. (you can read a track more than once, while not indexed by the index hole, and capture the rest of the track that way, but it takes some trial and error to get the whole track).
Another problem is, as far as I can tell, the catweasel 'raw' format which is used by the 'cw' executable cwtool when in raw14, raw14i, raw28, raw28i, raw56, and raw56i modes is not well documented (the source code is available and afaict that's about all the documentation that exists), and without understanding that, its impossible to tell where the 'beginning' and the 'end' of any given track dump within a resulting raw flux dump is. I don't know if the format even DOCUMENTS where a given track flux dump starts or stops; the flux dumps are variable sized as well, so there's no fixed offsets to help out.

I should ask Karsten Scheibler, the author, about that.
(He was VERY helpful the last time I asked him something, and working together (him doing most of the real work) we got the victor 9000 floppy format figured out and dumpable!)

LN

(how does this help find 'weak' flux bits? it really doesn't, but the flux threshholds can be adjusted on the catweasel iirc, and you can do multiple dumps with the threshholds set differently to 'see' weak bits; also you can do multiple dumps and see which bits change)
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/25/09 02:14 AM

Speaking of catweasel and floppy disks, did you ever dump those Apple II disks, Lord Nightmare?
Posted By: Lord Nightmare

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/26/09 12:55 AM

They're sitting in the box you sent them in on my floor until I can figure out the 'best' way to dump them, as some won't read with the catweasel as apple_gcr disks without errors.

LN
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/26/09 04:16 PM

Is that because of the way they're formatted, or could the disks have just gone bad? They're quite old and untested. If you're able to dump some of the disks, that would be a start at least.
Posted By: Lord Nightmare

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/27/09 01:20 PM

No, the catweasel will read the disks (on the bad ones, it will read them to some extent), the format isn't an issue.
Its a combination of age and "i'm not sure if i can properly read them in a way that will pass copy protection checks other than by using 120MB-per-disk raw flux dumps" (about 60MB zipped) and "maybe the disk is supposed to have some bad sectors for copy protection" and "this image format doesn't support dumping data by sector starting from the index hole"

Also, I wasn't sure the best way to document disk labels. probably scan them at 100dpi.

Eventually I'll figure something out, it hasn't been forgotten about.

If you want me to, this evening I can dump a few more (as cooked binary images) and send them.

The real solution to this problem is an FDI-like or DMK-like format for apple disks.

LN
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/28/09 12:03 PM

I think some of them actually were copies, and others were educational disks intended to be copied. On others, copy protection might be an issue.

If there's any that you can get good dumps from, then sure, send them my way. smile

Have you looked at the four disks labeled Z-DOS? I'm not sure what kind of computer those are for, but I'm interested in what's on them.

Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 05/30/09 04:53 PM

I finally found a decent price on a Super Famicom Box system, $99 plus shipping (at least $78 from Japan to Australia). The seller also has a Japanese Super Cassette Vision system with 7 carts for $99, and a few rarer carts for more. This sounds pretty tempting to me. Is anyone able to chip in?
Posted By: Anna Wu

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 05/31/09 10:28 AM

Originally Posted By ranger_lennier
I finally found a decent price on a Super Famicom Box system, $99 plus shipping (at least $78 from Japan to Australia). The seller also has a Japanese Super Cassette Vision system with 7 carts for $99, and a few rarer carts for more. This sounds pretty tempting to me. Is anyone able to chip in?


Are the Super Famicom Box System ROM´s not already dumped (by d4s) ?
GROM1-1.bin Size: 32768 CRC: 333bf9a7
GROM1-3.bin Size: 32768 CRC: ebec4c1c
ATROM-4S-0.smc Size: 524288 CRC: ad3ec05c
Posted By: Justin

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 05/31/09 04:18 PM

Originally Posted By Anna Wu
Are the Super Famicom Box System ROM´s not already dumped (by d4s) ?
GROM1-1.bin Size: 32768 CRC: 333bf9a7
GROM1-3.bin Size: 32768 CRC: ebec4c1c
ATROM-4S-0.smc Size: 524288 CRC: ad3ec05c


Hmm, so they are. I dunno how many of the carts are dumped, though.
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 05/31/09 04:40 PM

I found what you're talking about, and indeed they have been. Thanks for saving me money! Guru already has two of the carts, and dumped everything except one chip that was a weird ROM type. I didn't immediately find any cart dumps from d4s, though on a message board he said he'd dumped some. Are these floating around somewhere? It would be cool to see this system in MAME or MESS. I'd actually recommend MAME since it's coin operated.
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 05/31/09 04:55 PM

It's coin-op but not arcade so MESS is actually the right place.
Posted By: Anna Wu

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 05/31/09 05:20 PM

Originally Posted By ranger_lennier
I found what you're talking about, and indeed they have been. Thanks for saving me money! Guru already has two of the carts, and dumped everything except one chip that was a weird ROM type. I didn't immediately find any cart dumps from d4s, though on a message board he said he'd dumped some. Are these floating around somewhere? It would be cool to see this system in MAME or MESS. I'd actually recommend MAME since it's coin operated.


Check your PM
Posted By: etabeta78

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 05/31/09 05:44 PM

it's in MESS now wink

however, it needs some work because it has 0x10000+0x80000 bios to be correctly used (work that I cannot do right now, so anyone could feel free to work on it)
Posted By: ht1848

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 05/31/09 10:28 PM

Sweet, that is some efficiency, ~6 posts from wanted to skeleton. Nice work.

MESS Dumps Wanted
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/01/09 03:27 AM

Looking more closely, I think ds4's ROM dumps do have a chip from a couple of the carts, but then Guru said the carts he got had multiple ROM chips. So maybe he has a different version, or perhaps ds4 left out ROMs that were just regular Super Famicom games (assuming they're identical aside from a chip for the menu and instructions). Do the game cart dumps look complete?
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/01/09 03:47 AM

Checked my old messages--and good news. It looks like Guru had successfully dumped all the ROM's in the Waialae No Kiseki (Waialae Golf) & Super Mahjong 2 (PSS-62) cart, which it looks like ds4 hasn't dumped. The one he had trouble with is Super Mario Kart/Star Fox/Super Mario Collection (PSS-61).
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/01/09 01:14 PM

I did, however, pick up the Japanese Super Cassette Vision with seven games--Elevator Fight, Super Golf, Punch Boy, Nebula, Super Soccer, Battle in Galaxy, and Super Baseball, which I'm sending to Guru. Ian Knowles also has the European release of the system.
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/01/09 06:14 PM

Nice! I hope they dont use horrible custom chips.
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/02/09 12:45 AM

The cart I sent before was dumped easily enough. As for the system, I don't know.
Posted By: Carolynhorn

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/06/09 02:06 PM

I have an Epson HX-20 which was bought in Singapore shortly after the computer was released internationally in 1982.

I see that on the "Dumping wanted" page, the HC / HX-20 is listed, under Epson, under E.

There is a site which has a set of memory dumps from the HX-20, produced as hex dumps, also a fair bit of information, at http://us.geocities.com/abcmcfarren/hx20/hx20.htm The links to dumps etc are all at the bottom of that page. Would those be of any use? If not, I would appreciate advice on how to dump from my own HX-20. This site http://home.arcor.de/magnos/ccg/introccg.html has what looks like a useful set of programs, one for the HX-20 side and one for the PC side, but it's for Linux and I am not at all handy with Linux nor with compiling. My PC is Windows and my brain is blonde.

For anyone who has an interest in this machine, these sites have lots of info including technical manuals

Details and pictures
http://www.xs4all.nl/~fjkraan/comp/hx20/
Various manuals etc, including the tech support manuals
http://electrickery.xs4all.nl/comp/hx20/doc/

A review of the machine in a contemporary magazine when it came out
http://www.atarimagazines.com/creative/v9n3/101_Epson_HX20_computer.php
Posted By: robcfg

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/15/09 10:17 AM

Hi there!

I have several systems that needs to be dumped like some Acorn Archimedes models and some old Apple models.

My question is, as most of them have > 2mb Rom size and I cannot dump the rom chip directly, is acceptable for MESS a rom dump made from software?

I mean, if there's a program that makes a rom dump to disk, for example, would that rom dump be valid?

I'm asking this because some systems do have a couple of rom chips and, in some cases, one of the chips contains the odd bytes and the other one, the even ones.
Posted By: Duke

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/15/09 11:18 AM

Well, a rom dump to disk is still better than nothing, but we strongly prefer "real" dumps. Info how exactly the roms are split is very helpful too.
Posted By: Lord Nightmare

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/16/09 07:24 AM

carolynhorn: yes, we could use more dumps of the hx-20, we only have the 1.1 version roms dumped, and yours sounds like it could be 1.0. There should be a door or unscrewable panel on the bottom of the unit which allows access to the 5 internal rom sockets, can you open this and take a picture of the 4 or 5 roms inside?

LN
Posted By: Carolynhorn

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 07/05/09 11:24 AM

Lord Nighmare, Sorry for the delay replying. I was offline for a while and then I had to get brain, Epson, camera and light all together at the same time. Trickier than you might think, I did explain that the brain is blonde, didn't I *laughs*

I think I have the photo you want here.

http://www.stevehornsc.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/hx20roms.jpg

The blur on the left hand side is caused by the covering sheet which I of course lifted to one side for the photoshoot. I also have a photo of the whole back, in case there is something else there that you need to know.

http://www.stevehornsc.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/hx20back.jpg

One other thing that might be of interest, I bought an internal expansion for the machine, I think the cards must have been made by some enthusiast who then sold them to people, like me, who didn't want an expansion box on the side. So my machine has a whopping 32k of memory. I cannot now recall where I got it from or how we fixed it internally, but I could check the latter if it's important.

Would absolutely love to see an emulator for this fantastic machine, it's been with me all these years and is, in my view, a classic.

Carolyn

P.S. Edited again to say that I've got a bunch of programs for this machine, made mostly by my husband with a very small occasional bit of twiddling from me, including a "sideways printout" routine made by an enthusiast from an old user's group magazine. I used the machine to write letters home whilst abroad, you see. They are all on tape, no idea if the tapes are okay or not, but I do at least have printouts of everything. If any of this is of use, let me know.
Posted By: Guru

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 07/05/09 02:23 PM

In order to emulate it we'd need dumps of those ROMs and possibly details of the rest of the hardware. Since the four 24 pin ROMs are an unknown type and soldered in, and the other four 28 pin ROMs are also of an unknown type (I guess you can't dump them yourself), it will require someone else to do the job who can handle it. I can of course do it and it will be returned in the same condition, but there are possibly others closer to you (UK?) who may offer.
So it's up to you to decide what you want to do next and if anyone else steps up for the job.

Posted By: Curt Coder

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 07/05/09 04:26 PM

Looking at the picture the ROMs are socketed, and the 4 chips below are marked RAM on the PCB.
Posted By: Tomas K

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 07/05/09 06:09 PM

Some docs:

ftp://ftp.ptolserv.com/pub/docs/hx20mem.pdf

http://electrickery.xs4all.nl/comp/hx20/

http://www.vintage-computer.com/epsonhx20.shtml
Posted By: Carolynhorn

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 07/06/09 09:18 AM

Guru, I'm in Scotland. My husband is clever enough, I think, if we had some instructions on how to do it and, should it require the ROMs to be taken out and put into some ROM reader of sorts, info about that too. If there is reasonably cheap hardware that we could get for the job, or if it's possible to put something together with some wires and suchlike, he could certainly do it. Although my brain is blonde, his isn't and he is handy with a soldering iron, but he's not looked at this kind of thing before so we do need instructions if someone is willing to provide them.

Curt Coder, having taken a long look at the photo myself now, I confess it looks to me also as if the chips above the ROM0, ROM1 etc are sitting in sockets as opposed to the RAM0 etc chips below them. I'm a bit puzzled that ROM4 has a label stuck on it. The main board in this machine hasn't been touched. All that we have done to the machine is to add the internal expansion board, and we have changed the battery pack for a home-made one. When I say "we", my husband did the work while I held things.

Tomas K, thanks for the links! I hadn't found that pdf before, so have grabbed it now. I've seen the electrickery site, it shows the external expansion which does enlarge the machine a lot, so you can see why we went for the enthusiast's internal expansion. The vintage-computer page shows the white version of the computer, I think; mine is the silver-coloured one.

Carolyn

Editing to say, looking at the Inside picture on the electrickery site, I see that the ROM I have with the paper stick-on is apparently an "option" ROM. I have no idea what the option was though!


Posted By: Tomas K

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 07/06/09 03:21 PM

Carolyn: Yes indeed, the one with the sticker is the option ROM.

Code:
I1E  ROM4  2764 EPROM  bot Computers Ltd. INTEXT (Wordprocessor)
I2E  ROM3  Masked ROM  EPSON BASIC1R0 M64023AA
I3E  ROM2  Masked ROM  EPSON BASIC1R0 M64022AA
I4E  ROM1  Masked ROM  EPSON BASIC1R0 M64021AA
I5E  ROM0  Masked ROM  EPSON BASIC1R0 M64020CA

Posted By: Carolynhorn

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 07/06/09 04:20 PM

Thomas, Ah! Thanks. Now I half-remember, we did buy a word processor after we got back to the UK, one which we could never get to work. I didn't recall that it was on a chip, but that must have been it.

Carolyn
Posted By: Lord Nightmare

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 07/06/09 06:32 PM

the basic r0 roms are needed, i think only some mixture of basic rev0 and rev1 are currently dumped, while yours seems to have a pure rev0 set.

LN
Posted By: Carolynhorn

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 07/07/09 11:49 AM

Lord Nightmare, okay, thanks. So would it help if I could send to the PC from the HX-20 the results of a memory dump routine which starts at hex 8000 and finishes at FFFF?

This site http://home.arcor.de/magnos/ccg/introccg.html

has "dump.bas" which dumps stuff from memory locations to the com port, and "grab.c" for the PC side. Grab.c is obviously source code, and for Linux, which is where my brain collapses into a heap of goo. There is also a tantalising "Roms.bas" which would let me dump the roms to the machine's microcasette, but I do not know how I would then get the data from the microcasette to the PC.

I am very willing, but a bit stuck, and some advice would be hugely appreciated.

Carolyn

Edited to say, I have no problem, obviously, with running the .bas programs on the hx-20. It's what happens next, how to get it to the PC, which is my difficulty.
Posted By: Darkstar

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 07/07/09 03:18 PM

I once built a very basic "ghetto-style" EPROM reader on a prototype breadboard (the white ones, where you can simply stick ICs and components in). It used only 3 or 4 74xx chips and could be connected to the parallel port of a PC.

If I find the schematic I can post it so that you can build one. It took me only a few hours to design+build (including looking for the parts) so it definitely qualifies as "easy" smile

I also have the source code for the dumping program somewhere so you could use that, too.

-Darkstar
Posted By: Carolynhorn

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 07/07/09 03:24 PM


Darkstar, oh, nice one! That would be brilliant, if you would do that for us! It sounds very do-able *happy-dance* Mind you, if your place is anything like ours, finding paperwork can be a bit of a nightmare wink

Carolyn
Posted By: Darkstar

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 07/07/09 05:43 PM

Okay, here's the schematic (full size version here):

You have to figure out the pins by yourself though, sorry for that.

It basically uses 2 or 3 latches (74LS373) to set an arbitrary address to the address lines of the EPROM and then reads back the data through the (EPP) parallel port.

The trick is that you select the a chip via the strobe and select signals. The 74LS138 then enables exactly one of the three 74LS373s, or, if you set strobe and select to 1, it enables the data output of the EPROM so you can read the data back.

Reading a byte goes something like this:

set parallel port to output
set strobe,select to 0
output lower 8 bits of address to lpt
set strobe,select to 1
output upper 8 bits of address to lpt
(
optionally, if your ROM has more than 16 address bits:
set strobe,select to 2
output 8 more address bits to lpt
)
set strobe,select to 3
set parallel port to input
read 1 byte of data from parallel port
...rinse&repeat with the next address

You have to use a DLL for direct access to the lpt port on windows, I used this one.
As soon as I find the source code I'll post it, too.

(for the electronic nerds: yes I know this is not a completely clean design, because at one time there are two chips driving data onto the bus at the same time, but it did work for me...)

-Darkstar

*Edit: For those who are interested, I dumped a few ROMs some years ago before I threw out the hardware. They are available here, maybe they are useful for something in MESS, dunno. The ZIP file contains the BIOS and ROM Debugger from a Zenith XT, two different TurboXT ROMs, an AWARD 286 Modular BIOS (V3.03 NFS 11/10/87), the Phoenix BIOS from a Commodore PC (80386SX BIOS Rev. 1.03), A NetWare BOOT ROM for an ArcNet card (archaic! ;-) and some other harddisk- and floppy-controller ROMs)
Posted By: Guru

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 07/07/09 08:02 PM

if that diagram had full labels it would be easier to figure out. But as it is, it's too simplistic and therefore not very helpful.
In the pic the chips below are indeed RAMs so just the top socketed chips are needed.
The best idea is to just buy a cheap EPROM programmer like a Willem. You can get those on ebay for $50 or so.
Or dump out the data using some software.
Does that thing have a serial port or some kind of output connector? If so the software dump method would work. Otherwise buy a cheap Willem programmer, pull the chips and read them out. The job could be done in a few minutes once you get a Willem.
If you wanted to build one, this here is more the type of thing you'd need.
http://www.armory.com/~rstevew/Public/Pgmrs/EPROM/AndrewMcCubbin/_ClikMe1st.htm

Those ROMs are 28 pin, so they must be at least 64k. The way I would identify them is to pull the sticker off the EPROM (the brown chip) and then read what type it is. Chances are if you read the others as the same type they would be ok.
Even something using this type of ancient technology is quite complex to build for a novice.
It'd be far easier to just buy a Willem.
Something like this....
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=310124490071
Just search on ebay for 'Willem EPROM programmer' and buy the cheapest one.

Alternatively you can pull out the ROMs, stick them in a piece of styro-foam and post it to one of the MESS-related people located in England and they could dump it and return them. There are a few people near you.
Posted By: Phil Bennett

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 07/07/09 08:36 PM

Originally Posted By Guru
Alternatively you can pull out the ROMs, stick them in a piece of styro-foam and post it to one of the MESS-related people located in England and they could dump it and return them. There are a few people near you.


Yeah, I'd be willing to dump them for you (I'm based in Newcastle FYI).
Posted By: judge

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 07/07/09 08:40 PM

I really should take apart that megaduck and send those roms to some of you uk people...
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 07/07/09 09:51 PM

There are also MAME-friendly dumpers in (at least) Italy, Belgium, and Sweden.
Posted By: Darkstar

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 07/07/09 11:14 PM

Now that I took another look I have to agree with Guru: If you can't figure the schematic out (i.e. which pins of the 74LS373s go where, etc.) then you should probably stick with a Willem Programmer. It made (of course) perfect sense to me but then again I thought it up so that's expected.

-Darkstar
Posted By: Lord Nightmare

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 07/07/09 11:19 PM

I can figure it out. its simple enough:
the /strobe (db25 pin 1) and /select_in (db25 pin 17) pins from the parallel port are controlled from the pc end, and go to the 74ls138 pins 1 and 2 respectively, and are decoded into one of four outputs; these cause the parallel port data bus to be latched into one of the three address latches OR enable the rom to output to the parallel port data bus.
the 74ls373 latches have pins 3,4,7,8,13,14,17,18 going to the parport bits d0 thru d7 (db25 pins 2 thru 9) respectively, and have pins 2,5,6,9,12,15,16,19 going to (depending on which of the 3 latch chips) rom A0 thru A7, A8 thru A15, A16 thru A23, and finally, pin 11 (LE) of the 74ls373 comes from a 7404 hex inverter, which has 3 inverters used and inverts 3 pins: pin 15 /y0, pin 14 /y1 or pin 13 /y2 of the 74ls138, depending on whether its from the low, middle or high address controlling 74ls373.
(I assume LE of the 74ls373 latches on the rising edge, which is why the inverters are needed.)
Its a reasonably simple design. I can probably make a marginally better schematic, but right now I'm a bit busy, if I get it done I'll post it here.
LN
Posted By: Carolynhorn

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 07/08/09 09:11 AM

Thanks, everyone, for all the replies, including the schematic and the offers of help. You guys are a helpful, friendly bunch! I shall speak to my husband about it and see which of the alternatives he would prefer me to go with. Watch This Space grin

Carolyn
Posted By: Just Desserts

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 07/08/09 03:40 PM

Carolyn -

I've been watching this thread for the past week or two, and I want to thank you for your interest in contributing to MESS. It makes me really happy when people are genuinely interested in helping out the project. Thank you! laugh
Posted By: Anna Wu

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 07/08/09 05:05 PM

Yes, MESS need more woman power. smile
Posted By: John Elliott

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 07/08/09 10:13 PM

pc200 and pc20 seem to be using the same ROM images ('pc20v2.0' / 'pc20v2.1'). This matches my PC200 (with BIOS 1.5) but did the PC20 really use the same ROM? I'd have thought at the very least the copyright message would read 'Amstrad' rather than 'Sinclair'.

More accurate names for these ROMs, at least in a PC200, are:

pc20v2.0: 40185.ic129
pc20v2.1: 40184.ic132

I've also got dumps of an earlier PC200 BIOS (version 1.2) if anyone's interested.
Posted By: Justin

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 07/09/09 03:27 AM

Originally Posted By John Elliott
More accurate names for these ROMs, at least in a PC200, are:

pc20v2.0: 40185.ic129
pc20v2.1: 40184.ic132

I've also got dumps of an earlier PC200 BIOS (version 1.2) if anyone's interested.


Just to be clear, your ROMs with those labels have the same checksums as those now in MESS?

And yes, revisions not in MESS are appreciated, send dumps to Nathan Woods at http://www.mess.org/contacts.php
Posted By: Carolynhorn

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 07/09/09 01:30 PM

Just Desserts, what a lovely thing to say! You're very welcome, I'm glad to see that there is at last a way in which I can help a little bit. I have actually been interested in emulation for years, in fact since about 1994, and was very excited about the first steps in MESS. Although MAME is great and of course I had been following it, I have a greater fondness for old computers than for arcade machines. However, until recently I had no idea how I could help, as I have zero programming experience -- actually that's not true, I did have some small unsuccessful experience of programming an Elliott 803 in college. I say unsuccessful because the resulting error messages churned out a ticker-tape of astounding length before I hit the "off" switch. So really I have negative programming experience laugh But when I read the "dumps wanted" page, I saw that the HX-20 was listed so I though I should give that a whirl.

I have decided to try and do it myself, on the principle that if I can do that, I can then maybe dump any other areas of memory that might be required later. But if I don't succeed, I shall take Phil Bennett up on his offer with huge gratefulness.

Anna Wu, good point! By the way, when I refer to my husband, it is on the principle of "why re-invent the wheel" or "why keep a dog and bark yourself" rather than any subservience wink

Carolyn
Posted By: John Elliott

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 07/09/09 08:12 PM

Originally Posted By Justin
Originally Posted By John Elliott
More accurate names for these ROMs, at least in a PC200, are:

pc20v2.0: 40185.ic129
pc20v2.1: 40184.ic132

I've also got dumps of an earlier PC200 BIOS (version 1.2) if anyone's interested.


Just to be clear, your ROMs with those labels have the same checksums as those now in MESS?


[Opens case] Ah, not quite. The 1.5 set have the following labels:

IC129 is labelled 40185-2
IC132 is labelled 40184-2

The 1.2 set have the following labels:

IC129 is labelled

AMSTRAD
40185
v1.2:A058

and IC132 is labelled

AMSTRAD
40184
v1.2:5EA8

Both motherboards have the same character generator ROM (in the zip as 40109.bin, and probably should be called 40109.ic159):

AMSTRAD
40109
8829 B

And yes, the 1.5 set have the same checksums as the PC20 set in MESS:
% md5sum *.ic* pc20v2.?
60e477dacb126dfab422e5b84164d582 40109.ic159
7c38eaf64d0ceff4d3ae16e979acb200 40184-2.ic132
4a598b4319c3fab96c7793835bf1a8b7 40184.ic132
0a84c353542417efa2f8afea1cad7659 40185-2.ic129
985b40b575513f0081b6e95b6d0b2dd0 40185.ic129
0a84c353542417efa2f8afea1cad7659 pc20v2.0
7c38eaf64d0ceff4d3ae16e979acb200 pc20v2.1
Posted By: Justin

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 07/10/09 05:03 AM

OK, thanks! Will have to wait for someone with a PC20 to verify that part I guess.
Posted By: ht1848

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 07/13/09 06:42 PM

Kevtris(or Guru or dumpers),
I shared these on IRC and they mentioned you might be able to dump this. It is from a IBM model M keyboard that died on me (RIP). Can you dump this? needed?
Front PCB, back PCB

Cheers.
Posted By: Guru

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 07/18/09 01:22 AM

it could be decapped but funds are low and there are more important things in the decapping list.
it will surely be protected so reading it out is not an option.
maybe someone could figure out how to get it to spit out its guts by making a custom circuit and wiring it to a PC via parallel port or usb but that's not me.
Posted By: Lord Nightmare

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 07/19/09 12:17 PM

ht1848: don't toss it; we may need it later.

LN
Posted By: ht1848

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 07/19/09 11:26 PM

Guru/LN. Thanks - I'll just hold on to it for now. I updated "MESS Dumping have page" so if someone is searching for it. Cheers.
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 07/25/09 09:16 PM

Guru received my Epoch Super Cassette Vision. Here are some of his comments:

"There's not much inside, as expected.
I don't see anything dumpable. Or easily dumpable.

The 4016 is 2k RAM
The 1076 might be a video DAC
The 1771 might also be video related.

The other chips Epoch TV-1 and D7801 are the main chips, possibly D7801 is a
MCU and has internal ROM. I'll leave it up to you to research them.

It may be possible to trojan the ROM out using an EPROM in a cart for the
code, but unless someone wants to take on the job it won't be done.
I can do the trojaning but I have no idea about writing trojans.

The carts contain only one 2364 ROM and nothing else. Easily dumped."

A quick search showed some electronic parts references for the D7801, but it's not immediately clear what it is. Is anyone able to write a trojan program like he mentions? We could probably get some cart dumps if that would help.
Posted By: Anna Wu

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 07/25/09 09:43 PM

Not sure some infos are helpful.
Maybe Takeda Toshiya can help ?
In the past, the MESS team was helping too.





Posted By: Justin

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 07/25/09 09:58 PM

According to the docs on Takeda's page, the main CPU is a uPD7801G with 4KB of internal ROM. It looks like he built a circuit to dump it but I don't see much in the way of details.
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 07/25/09 10:01 PM

Looks like he emulated it, even.
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 07/25/09 11:51 PM

Originally Posted By R. Belmont
Looks like he emulated it, even.


Yes, he's emulated a number of obscure Japanese systems. Unfortunately, the ROMs for said systems do not seem to be publicly available, and he didn't respond to my earlier e-mail asking about them.
Posted By: Stiletto

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 07/27/09 05:16 AM

I can source the official uPD7801 datasheet if it's necessary to figure out how to dump it.

BTW, there's other good info on it:
http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=130365
http://www.disgruntleddesigner.com/chrisc/GamePokekon/index.html#docs
http://www.disgruntleddesigner.com/chrisc/GamePokekon/files/uPD78c06_Instruction_Set.txt
http://www.st.rim.or.jp/~nkomatsu/nec/uPD7807.html
ftp://ftp.stack.nl/pub/users/nick/crossasm/vacs78.zip
http://www2.odn.ne.jp/~haf09260/Scv/EnrScc.htm
http://www.bannister.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat& Number=27184
Posted By: judge

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 07/27/09 07:13 AM

For the game pocket computer (gamepokekon) Chris wrote a little rom displaying tool which displayed the contents of the internal rom. He then proceeded to copy the data from the screen. That's how the dump for that system bios was made.

If I'm not mistaken the cassette vision can be programmed by the user? In that case we could write a program to display the rom contents on the screen for that one as well.
Posted By: Guru

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 07/27/09 10:18 AM

Originally Posted By judge
If I'm not mistaken the cassette vision can be programmed by the user? In that case we could write a program to display the rom contents on the screen for that one as well.

yeah, that's what I suggested. My inbox is waiting for the trojan code ;-)
Posted By: judge

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 07/27/09 10:50 AM

Do we have some cartridge dumps for the cassette vision?
Posted By: Anna Wu

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 07/27/09 11:37 AM

Originally Posted By judge
Do we have some cartridge dumps for the cassette vision?

I think, yes

Quote:

Guru

"There's not much inside, as expected.
I don't see anything dumpable. Or easily dumpable.

The 4016 is 2k RAM
The 1076 might be a video DAC
The 1771 might also be video related.

The other chips Epoch TV-1 and D7801 are the main chips, possibly D7801 is a
MCU and has internal ROM. I'll leave it up to you to research them.

It may be possible to trojan the ROM out using an EPROM in a cart for the
code, but unless someone wants to take on the job it won't be done.
I can do the trojaning but I have no idea about writing trojans.

The carts contain only one 2364 ROM and nothing else. Easily dumped."

Originally Posted By ranger_lennier
Originally Posted By Anna Wu

I agree. For Epoch Cassette Vision as example, I found only one game (Wheelie Racer [d1].scv) in internet, but no dumped bios. Maybe someone can ask Takeda Toshiya, not sure he will help ?


Probably not coincidence that that's the cart I sent Guru. smile I sent an email to Takeda Toshiya once, but no response. Maybe someone else could try, especially someone in Japan. We are looking at duplicating a lot of work that's already been done collecting and dumping games, because the dumps just don't seem to be available.

Here another info.


Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 07/28/09 12:14 PM

Are those Yeno Super Cassette Vision dumps available? Yeno released the system in Europe. I'm not sure if the games are identical to the Japanese versions.
Posted By: Lord Nightmare

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 07/28/09 01:54 PM

Is the upd7801 related to the upd44801? tatsuyuki did a bunch of work relating to the latter (used on the alpha8201 mcu) in mame a while back. The upd44801 is dumpable using the TEST pin.

LN
Posted By: Stiletto

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 07/28/09 05:55 PM

I'm attempting to get the datasheet.
Posted By: Stiletto

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 07/31/09 06:19 PM

whoa, check this dude out. Perfect timing.
http://ploguechipsounds.blogspot.com/2009/07/rom-trojaning-super-cassette-vision.html

Lots of other interesting stuff in the other posts, for soundchip fans.

BTW, I have the datasheet now, need to prep it for upload.
Posted By: Anna Wu

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 07/31/09 06:27 PM

Originally Posted By Stiletto
whoa, check this dude out. Perfect timing.
http://ploguechipsounds.blogspot.com/2009/07/rom-trojaning-super-cassette-vision.html

Lots of other interesting stuff in the other posts, for soundchip fans.

BTW, I have the datasheet now, need to prep it for upload.


Wow, great news !
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 07/31/09 06:33 PM

Nice smile

ETA: XML for a chip log format though? I love XML more than is healthy and I barfed when I saw that.
Posted By: Stiletto

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 07/31/09 07:39 PM

Okay, created an account and uploaded two datasheets to the wiki:
http://mess.redump.net/_media/:datasheets:ami:s2000_family.pdf
which is for Wildfire Pinball (for Lord Nightmare)

http://mess.redump.net/_media/:datasheets:nec:upd7801.pdf
for Epoch Super Cassette Vision

These both came from Ingo Sangmeister.
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/01/09 06:00 PM

Originally Posted By Stiletto
whoa, check this dude out. Perfect timing.
http://ploguechipsounds.blogspot.com/2009/07/rom-trojaning-super-cassette-vision.html

Lots of other interesting stuff in the other posts, for soundchip fans.

BTW, I have the datasheet now, need to prep it for upload.


That is wild. Does this sound doable, Guru?
Posted By: Stiletto

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/01/09 07:05 PM

FWIW: Apparently the NEC uPD1771C sound chip used in the Epoch Super Cassette Vision is undocumented aside from the sourcecode Takeda Toshida released, as mentioned by this Plogue guy - and he's doing digital sampling of it Right Now.

I've only found one reference to the chip online that's more than just a chip reseller - a NEC document telling people what old chips are now no longer supported. Or something like that.
Posted By: plgDavid

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/02/09 02:09 PM

Hi there!

First time here. Im the author of the chipsounds blog. Coincidence indeed lol. Thanks for the upD7801 datasheet!!! That is REALLY welcome. (too bad i didnt have it a week ago lol).

the XML format for chip data is not meant as an "end all" compressed format. I mostly use it to manually create/test lists of register writes and to make snapshot of discreet sound blurps like Special Effects and the likes. Common set of C++ tools to play with it etc...
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/02/09 02:11 PM

Yeah, as an internal format for an effects editor or something like that it's fine. I just wouldn't want to log an entire Genesis song where it plays samples by pushing the data through a port on the YM2612 that way smile
Posted By: plgDavid

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/02/09 02:30 PM

Yeah

For YM2612, I probably would use references to external binary files. wouldnt make sense to push each and every byte.

However for c64 digis, my approach still has values, if you record things like early speech games (impossible mission, ghostbusters), you realise that the _timing_ between each volume register write is crucial to the sound, and it varies a lot.
Posted By: plgDavid

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/02/09 02:35 PM

BTW,

here are two MD5's for some of my SCV carts :

Astro Wars - Invaders from Space.rom 5c0a8b9e0ae3bdc62cf758c8de3c621c

Wheelie Racer.rom ef4ab0300b9e056d1ba9873b63a1b6cf
(i think you guys have this one already.. hows the md5 match?)

I also have "Nebula" but its on a upD23128AC and i cant dump in with any trick i've tried.
Posted By: Anna Wu

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/02/09 02:46 PM

Originally Posted By plgDavid
BTW,

here are two MD5's for some of my SCV carts :

Astro Wars - Invaders from Space.rom 5c0a8b9e0ae3bdc62cf758c8de3c621c

Wheelie Racer.rom ef4ab0300b9e056d1ba9873b63a1b6cf
(i think you guys have this one already.. hows the md5 match?)


I also have "Nebula" but its on a upD23128AC and i cant dump in with any trick i've tried.


My version is different.
[MD5] c6a2d7b69be41d1de936c7643527f842 [CRC32] 04860245
Not sure I have a bad or good dump. Also not know, any different exist between YENO or EPOCH Super Cassette Vision cartridges.
Can not check, because of the missing hardware or bios rom (for the eSCV emulator).
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/02/09 02:57 PM

Yeah. Which is why for playback purposes emulated formats (xSF/SID) work better - you get the timing "for free" if you build the player reasonably carefully. But I wouldn't want to try and edit sounds/songs that way smile
Posted By: Stiletto

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/02/09 03:30 PM

Originally Posted By plgDavid
First time here. Im the author of the chipsounds blog. Coincidence indeed lol. Thanks for the upD7801 datasheet!!! That is REALLY welcome. (too bad i didnt have it a week ago lol).


I'm not sure ANYONE had it, other than Takeda Toshida and partners maybe, scanned in PDF form until yesterday. smile
I like tracking down and digitizing datasheets. Ingo Sangmeister at http://www.ic-ts-histo.de is a really great guy and has the largest private collection of data books I've ever seen, even more than Al Kossow of http://www.bitsavers.org. He's been very helpful over the past few years when websites like DatasheetArchive.com don't have what you need. You just have to be patient and not flood him with requests. The Software Preservation Society (http://www.softpres.org) has also required his help in obtaining obscure floppy-drive-related datasheets. (I wonder what they are, maybe MESS will need them too at some point)

Originally Posted By plgDavid
the XML format for chip data is not meant as an "end all" compressed format. I mostly use it to manually create/test lists of register writes and to make snapshot of discreet sound blurps like Special Effects and the likes. Common set of C++ tools to play with it etc...


I think R. Belmont's just concerned about whether he needs to try to support another chiptunes format in Audio Overload.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_Overload wink

I can get a datasheet for the uPD23128AC if you want. smile
Posted By: plgDavid

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/02/09 04:00 PM

Originally Posted By R. Belmont
But I wouldn't want to try and edit sounds/songs that way smile


Exactly, and that's mostly my goal. Also to analyze fast register writing tricks (wavetables, oscillator resetting tricks, etc), its much easier with a list of writes, imho.
Posted By: Lord Nightmare

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/02/09 04:05 PM

plgDavid: btw on your page you mention that the sn76489A and the sn94624 chip used on the ti 99/4a have different whitenoise streams. I know the sn76489 and the sn76489A have different streams because the non-a part has a one-stage-shorter shift register (15 instead of 16 stages) and hence even with the xor-tap-movement magic the ti engineers did, it has one extra bit at the very beginning of the stream.
But you implied the sn94624 is different from the sn76489A beyond just the one bit difference? If the stream really is different, what are the xor taps of the sn94624? do they match the sega PSG/sn76489 clone or are the completely different from anything we have so far?

Just curious.

LN

P.S. does the sn94624 have a completely different clock divider to the sn76489A, i.e. it divides by 4 instead of by 32 or so? the sn76489a datasheet implied this but i'm not sure its true. TI LOVED to have multiple part numbers for the same chip and to make subtle but visible behavior changes without changing part numbers...
Posted By: Anna Wu

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/02/09 06:32 PM

Originally Posted By Anna Wu
Originally Posted By plgDavid
BTW,

here are two MD5's for some of my SCV carts :

Astro Wars - Invaders from Space.rom 5c0a8b9e0ae3bdc62cf758c8de3c621c

Wheelie Racer.rom ef4ab0300b9e056d1ba9873b63a1b6cf
(i think you guys have this one already.. hows the md5 match?)


I also have "Nebula" but its on a upD23128AC and i cant dump in with any trick i've tried.


My version is different.
[MD5] c6a2d7b69be41d1de936c7643527f842 [CRC32] 04860245
Not sure I have a bad or good dump. Also not know, any different exist between YENO or EPOCH Super Cassette Vision cartridges.
Can not check, because of the missing hardware or bios rom (for the eSCV emulator).


OK, I modified my cart dump.

[MD5] ef4ab0300b9e056d1ba9873b63a1b6cf
[CRC32] 9d9b29db

Thanks David !
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/02/09 06:36 PM

It's certainly plausible that the Wheelie Racer ROM's would be different, since I sent Guru the Japanese version and plgDavid dumped the European version, I presume.

Now, Guru also has the Japanese system and seven more games: Elevator Fight, Super Golf, Punch Boy, Nebula, Super Soccer, Battle in Galaxy, and Super Baseball.

Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/02/09 06:40 PM

Originally Posted By Anna Wu


OK, I modified my cart dump.

[MD5] ef4ab0300b9e056d1ba9873b63a1b6cf
[CRC32] 9d9b29db

Thanks David !


Oh, so the carts are the same? Was it overdumped or something?
Posted By: Anna Wu

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/02/09 06:50 PM

Hard to say, because of missing hardware and can not test in practice. For the rest, I have not the technical knowledge.

In my dump, one byte was wrong and some bytes to reach 16Kb at the end was missing.
Posted By: Lord Nightmare

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/02/09 08:20 PM

anna wu: its more likely that your dump was right for the one byte. which byte was it and what value should it have been/was it?

LN
Posted By: Anna Wu

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/02/09 08:32 PM

0x48 to 0x23 at address 0x2000 changed
The missing bytes was filled with FFFF until 0x3FFF

Posted By: plgDavid

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/02/09 10:49 PM

As i wrote to anna:

with 0x23:

9fff 22 " inx d
a000 23 # dcx d
a001 24,25,26 $%& lxi d,2625h
a004 27,28 '( gti a,28h
a006 29 ) ldax b
a007 2a * ldax d

with 0x48:

9fff 22 " inx d
a000 48,24 H$ di
a002 25,26,27 %&' gtiw v.26h,27h
a005 28,29 () ldaw v.29h
a007 2a * ldax d

would be odd to have a "disable interrupt" out of the blue.
also 0x48 is also the first byte of the file (0x0000, mapped at 0x8000), so there
could have been a fluke in capture in the higher address lines.

(LN ill PM you soon)
Posted By: plgDavid

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/03/09 12:49 AM

Hi

Ive updated my procedure to dump the BIOS with more details and example code to decompress/checksum the results :

http://ploguechipsounds.blogspot.com/2009/07/rom-trojaning-super-cassette-vision.html (near the end)

Some new info contained in the readme.txt:

Epoch NTSC (jp) configuration (as the Japanese team provided)

CPU uPD7801G 4.0 MHz
VDC EPOCH TV-1 14.31818 MHz
SOUND UPD1771C 6.0 MHz
BIOS md5 (unknown)

***********

Yeno (PAL) configuration (im the owner)

CPU uPD7801G 3.78 MHz
VDC EPOCH TV-1A 13.4 MHz
SOUND UPD1771C 6.0 MHz
BIOS MD5: 635a978fd40db9a18ee44eff449fc126

It would be nice to have confirmation of the MD5 of my dump, especially since there are good chances PAL/NTSC bioses may differ.
Posted By: Anna Wu

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/03/09 06:43 AM

Thanks again for your help, David. smile
Posted By: judge

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/03/09 09:02 AM

Could you supply sha1 and crc hashes as well? Makes it easier to verify wink
Posted By: plgDavid

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/03/09 12:25 PM

no prob.

PAL SCV BIOS.ROM :
MD5 : 635a978fd40db9a18ee44eff449fc126
SHA1 : 6e89d1227581c76441a53d605f9e324185f1da33
CRC32 : 7ac06182
Posted By: judge

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/03/09 01:37 PM

great, thanks.
Posted By: Anna Wu

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/06/09 11:22 AM

Any news about the EPOCH Super Cassette Vision console ROM dump ?

1.) ranger_lennier sent console to Guru
2.) plgDavid wrote a ROM trojaner already.

Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 10/23/09 05:11 PM

I recently bought a Bush Internet Surf Set for shits and giggles, It's one of those Web TV clones, runs RISC OS on an ARM CPU.
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 10/23/09 05:19 PM

Oh, yeah, I remember reading that Acorn had made Web TV clones that were pretty much console-ized Archimedes systems.
Posted By: Guru

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 10/27/09 01:13 PM

Originally Posted By Anna Wu
Any news about the EPOCH Super Cassette Vision console ROM dump ?

1.) ranger_lennier sent console to Guru
2.) plgDavid wrote a ROM trojaner already.



it's not so simple.
1. it runs on 100V any my power is 240V
2. it's NTSC and TV here is PAL
3. there's no guarantee it even works

However.... I found my multi-voltage power brick (set to 7.5V) with inter-changeable plugs, used the RF cable from my Atari 2600, plugged it all in, tuned in my big Sony TV that can accept just about anything and amazingly it actually works cool
I will look at trojaning it sometime soon.
Posted By: Anna Wu

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 10/27/09 01:49 PM

Thank you for your effort, Guru smile
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/06/09 12:01 AM

I've updated my dumping list on the Wiki. Guru's dumped more Super Cassette Vision carts (though a couple were bad). I also have a few more that I've picked up, and some other stuff.

http://mess.redump.net/dumping:have#in_ranger_lenniers_s_possession

Actually, I'm not sure what three of the carts I picked up are, since the titles are all in Japanese. Can anyone help me out?

http://img687.yfrog.com/i/svccartscropped.jpg/
Posted By: Justin

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/06/09 02:13 AM

Originally Posted By ranger_lennier
Actually, I'm not sure what three of the carts I picked up are, since the titles are all in Japanese. Can anyone help me out?

http://img687.yfrog.com/i/svccartscropped.jpg/


Astro Wars
Super Sansuu Puter
Shougi Nyuumon
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/06/09 03:33 AM

Thanks! I've updated the Wiki.
Posted By: Anna Wu

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/06/09 05:58 AM

Maybe this page can help to find out the title in english .
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/06/09 06:57 AM

Yup, they translate Super Sansuu Puter as "Super Professor" and "Shougi Nyuumon" as "Japanese Chess."
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/06/09 01:42 PM

I just tried to dump the roms from the Bush "Internet Surf Set", no dice, they are 42 pin and my programmer only does up to 40.
Posted By: plgDavid

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/24/09 05:56 PM

hi

"Nebula (apparently bad)" ... i cant dump mine as well, although it works on the console ... uses a 23128 whic can be manufactured with rd/cs inversions iirc...

was your cart playable??

[edit meant 23128]
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/24/09 08:25 PM

I'm not sure if it was playable, as I had them shipped directly to Guru. When he tried dumping the carts, he commented,

"the not included ones were bad. the roms just read as all 00 and heating them
up (etc) doesn't help. The ROMs are just old and have internally died.
They are all NEC D23128 or NEC D2364 (one game). There were no problems
reading the good ones. The D23128 can be read just like a 27C128, and the
D2364 is readable as a TMS2564. Nothing special there."

Guru was planning on getting the system set up there at some point to run the BIOS trojan.
Posted By: plgDavid

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/24/09 08:54 PM

odd since i can dump a 27128 in one eSCV cart (wheelie racer), and plenty of other 128's all around, but i cant dump that 23128 as a 27128 (it gives me zeroes too) but the cart works.

there are chances guru's cart aint dead.
Posted By: plgDavid

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/24/09 09:09 PM

Originally Posted By Stiletto

I can get a datasheet for the uPD23128AC if you want. smile


I guess we do!
Posted By: Stiletto

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/25/09 01:06 AM

okay, will go work on that... thanks, David...
Posted By: plgDavid

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/25/09 02:21 AM

Thanks Stileto.

just tried with another upD23128AC for super soccer and cant get it read either on two EPROM readers here.. i guess guru knows tricks i dont.

i did read a 2364 as 2564 (Astro Wars), on a GQ-4X usb device
Posted By: Stiletto

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/25/09 03:56 AM

Here's a uPD23128E datasheet.
http://www.datasheetarchive.com/pdf-datasheets/Datasheets-112/DSAP0044857.pdf
It wasn't there when last I looked.

Only difference seems to be access time, 250ns versus 200ns.
See specifications: http://www.datasheetarchive.com/UPD23128-datasheet.html

I'll see if I can get the real thing.

Also similar: http://www.cpu-world.com/Support/2/23.html
UMC UM23128, Synertek SYP23128, AMD Am92128, AMI S23128, GI R0-9128, Signetics 26128A

also similar: Motorola MCM63128P
http://www.datasheetarchive.com/MCM63128P-datasheet.html
Posted By: plgDavid

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/25/09 02:06 PM

doh. i usually scourge www.datasheetarchive.com all the time. thanks.

i think its the two distinct output enables that confuse the eprom burner i have, compared to the 27128
Posted By: Stiletto

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/25/09 02:09 PM

Yep, compared to a 27128. I meant comparing a uPD23128E versus a uPD23128AC, sorry I wasn't clear.

Honestly, I don't think it was there a few months ago.
Posted By: judge

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/25/09 02:58 PM

Perhaps they add datasheets based on searches that don't turn up any useful results?
Posted By: Stiletto

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/25/09 11:49 PM

No, it's actually more likely they scanned more databooks, see bottom right of http://www.datasheetarchive.com/

I actually talk to the admin of the site through email from time to time, I need to do that again.
Posted By: Guru

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/28/09 01:38 AM

Originally Posted By plgDavid
"Nebula (apparently bad)" ... i cant dump mine as well, although it works on the console ... uses a 23128 whic can be manufactured with rd/cs inversions iirc...
was your cart playable??


Yes, the carts I have work. I've solved it now, all carts are dumped.
Posted By: plgDavid

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/30/09 03:36 PM

Originally Posted By Guru

Yes, the carts I have work. I've solved it now, all carts are dumped.


anything you had to do with OE1 and OE2? inverted? I really cant dump mine, i would love to provide you my MD5s to have another one validate the dumps (at least the carts i have)

thanks
Posted By: Stiletto

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/30/09 05:32 PM

NEC uPD23128 preliminary datasheet now uploaded here. Confirmed 250ns access time.

Thanks again to Ingo Sangmeister. smile
Posted By: Stiletto

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/01/09 03:19 PM

Er, that would be here, sorry:
http://mess.redump.net/_media/:datasheets:nec:upd23128.pdf
Posted By: plgDavid

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/01/09 06:51 PM

thanks for that datasheet.
odd, this extra CS line (pin 27) compared to the typical 27128 (PGM). maybe thats where the fun is.
Posted By: Guru

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/06/09 05:26 AM

Here's one pic of the trojan running. Unfortunately this isn't useful because both left and top are offset and there's no way to adjust it on the TV to get everything on screen.
This is the NTSC trojan. The PAL trojan is much worse.
It would also be useful if the delay between screens was a bit longer (perhaps double the current delay).
The trojan will need to be modified and I'll need a new binary.



Posted By: justaplayer_217

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/06/09 11:06 AM

I see you dumped that there C64DTV version 2 there, Mister Guru. Excellent, excellent. smile

(I am a c64/Amiga fan of no small proportions)
Posted By: plgDavid

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/06/09 08:22 PM

hi guru.

sorry about the framing, I used my C1084 monitor which has huge overscan settings.

as far as the delay, it would be much simpler to drive the video in a video camera's analog inputs and digitize to the computer as raw DV, than taking lots of pictures smile My canon DV cam also has LOTS more framing room, so we might not even have to change the binary.

in anycase, ill modify the rom in the next days. stay tuned.
Posted By: plgDavid

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/06/09 08:48 PM

ok.

with the NTSC rom you have, there is a few offsets that you can modify

change the (number of lines per screen-1):
offset 0x27=0x0d , make it 0x0b

also

offset 0x24=0x03 is the low byte of start address to display stuff... Looking at your screenshot you should make it to 0x44
(two chars down and one char left)

of course you can tweak it until you get it right.. add 0x20 per line. remove lines per screen at will.


Posted By: Guru

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/08/09 09:02 AM

ok try this one.
This is the first page when powered on. The TV wants to auto-config the screen and thus there's some green text on-screen covering up the numbers which doesn't disappear until the 2nd page has been displayed. As I said, the delay needs to be longer, by at least 2X. Capturing it with a DV camera might be ok _IF_ you have a DV camera. I don't.

So this is right? If yes I'll do all screens and the typing monkeys can get to work smirk

Posted By: Guru

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/08/09 10:49 AM

I see the first screen matches your dump so I just did all the screens anyway. It's here but only for a day so get it now.

This is the first screen again, now with 1 more line....


Go! Go! Typing Monkeys!!

grin
Posted By: plgDavid

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/08/09 12:20 PM

Guru, thats it!

You can safely let the monkeys go wild.
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/08/09 04:53 PM

I'll see if we can get that system they used over at mameworld set up.
Posted By: Just Desserts

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/08/09 05:01 PM

Originally Posted By Guru
I see the first screen matches your dump so I just did all the screens anyway. It's here but only for a day so get it now.

This is the first screen again, now with 1 more line....


Go! Go! Typing Monkeys!!

grin


Code:
4824=0??54?1????54?4<6
????????????54?7??141>
905;53?>52?<68??4>2582
????54?:??482062543:25
084820625451094820626?
????????????????????65
????????54?=??69?74=5>
<269??4=<54=<04=<46921
003400343=3=3=3;34>08?
??3=3=3=3;38=<649:??91
24?1??3423006;0>31680>
??69224=<304=2??69381>
38=:4820540007???409>?
Posted By: Just Desserts

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/08/09 05:02 PM

Originally Posted By ranger_lennier
I'll see if we can get that system they used over at mameworld set up.


Why bother for just 33 pages? I can have them all typed up tonight, just give me 5 hours to go home from work.
Posted By: Anna Wu

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/08/09 06:00 PM

I hope for a successful SCV Bios dump. blush
Good luck !
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/08/09 07:06 PM

Originally Posted By Just Desserts
Originally Posted By ranger_lennier
I'll see if we can get that system they used over at mameworld set up.


Why bother for just 33 pages? I can have them all typed up tonight, just give me 5 hours to go home from work.


I figured since they already had a system worked out, we might as well use it. And it would be good to get a confirmation from multiple people (though I wouldn't be surprised if it ends up being the same as plgDavid's Yeno Cassette Vision dump). But if you want to just do it, that's fine as well. The more help we get the more likely it will be to get a perfect dump. Fortunately, these images are easy to read.
Posted By: Just Desserts

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/08/09 07:16 PM

Originally Posted By ranger_lennier
I figured since they already had a system worked out, we might as well use it. And it would be good to get a confirmation from multiple people (though I wouldn't be surprised if it ends up being the same as plgDavid's Yeno Cassette Vision dump). But if you want to just do it, that's fine as well. The more help we get the more likely it will be to get a perfect dump. Fortunately, these images are easy to read.


If you'd like to use the MW system as well, I certainly won't fault you for it, I'm just trying to save folks some time. I'm just wondering how long it'll take to set up, even with a pre-existing framework. smile
Posted By: Lord Nightmare

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/08/09 09:23 PM

Yeno Cassette vision and vtech creativision are the same thing, right? i think 'yeno' is the name of the european or german branch of vtech; they also sold the socrates there as "yeno professor socrates" iirc (which we need the bios from)

LN
Posted By: robcfg

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/08/09 09:58 PM

I think Yeno was a french company which also distributed the Sega SC3000 with a Scart connector in Europe.
Posted By: ElBarto

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/08/09 10:19 PM

No yeno is a german company, the super cassette vision was distributed by ITMC in France.
The SC3000 was ditributed by Yeno in France thought.
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/08/09 10:23 PM

Originally Posted By Lord Nightmare
Yeno Cassette vision and vtech creativision are the same thing, right? i think 'yeno' is the name of the european or german branch of vtech; they also sold the socrates there as "yeno professor socrates" iirc (which we need the bios from)

LN


No, the Yeno Cassete Vision is a European clone of the Epoch Super Cassette Vision. It's not the same as a Creativision. I don't know if Yeno ever released a version of the Creativision.

I sent Guru the Japanese version. plgDavid has the European version.
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/08/09 10:24 PM

Typing monkey exercise is already prepared. Go here if you want to help out.

http://www.progettoemma.net/dump/index.php

I'll try to do some tonight.
Posted By: Lord Nightmare

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/08/09 10:39 PM

JD is also working on it, so the typing monkey thing could be useful for doublechecking.

LN
Posted By: JoJo

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/08/09 10:54 PM

Done my monkey duty on a couple of pics wink
Posted By: Just Desserts

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/08/09 11:17 PM

The site is missing the last two pictures in the series. Other than that, I just got done punching in all of my results, have fun with the verification. smile
Posted By: plgDavid

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/08/09 11:25 PM

just a note, each line ends with a running sum already (full hex byte).. if there are obvious typos, they will be detected upon entering the strings in the decoder.
Posted By: Lord Nightmare

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/08/09 11:41 PM

did two images, site now shows the last two which were missing it seems

LN
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/09/09 02:42 AM

Yeah, it only lists so many images at a time. Now everything's visible or has been verified already.
Posted By: Anna Wu

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/09/09 12:17 PM

Originally Posted By ranger_lennier
Yeah, it only lists so many images at a time. Now everything's visible or has been verified already.


What is total lenght and the CRC of the merged file ?
I test it on the eSCV emulator without success. But it can be, I made some mistake.



Posted By: judge

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/09/09 02:19 PM

I thought the total length should be 4096 bytes.
Posted By: algrun

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/09/09 03:32 PM

did some of the pics
Posted By: Anna Wu

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/09/09 04:39 PM

Originally Posted By judge
I thought the total length should be 4096 bytes.


I think ($0000-$0FFF) too.
Posted By: plgDavid

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/09/09 05:04 PM

Ive posted everything on how to dump this:
http://ploguechipsounds.blogspot.com/2009/07/rom-trojaning-super-cassette-vision.html

read the readme.txt file in the bios dumper zip
http://plogue.com/davidv/scv_dumper.zip

ascii != binary

you could do this in perl, python or anything else

each pair of chars is a "kinda ascii hex byte", because i didnt want to spend another day doing upD7801 asm (when i didnt have the manual)

Code:
So Instead of
0123456789ABCDEF my kinda hex its
0123456789:;<=>?

Say first line:
4824=0??54?1????54?4<6

4824D0FF54F1FFFF54F4 checksum: C6



22 chars, so 11 bytes. 10 first bytes are from the BIOS, and the last byte is a u8 check sum for the whole thing to date (yes it overflows) Ive even given you C++ to decode it.l please give this to someone who knows how to compile and run code



Posted By: Anna Wu

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/09/09 05:27 PM

Originally Posted By plgDavid
Ive posted everything on how to dump this:
http://ploguechipsounds.blogspot.com/2009/07/rom-trojaning-super-cassette-vision.html

read the readme.txt file in the bios dumper zip
http://plogue.com/davidv/scv_dumper.zip

ascii != binary

you could do this in perl, python or anything else

each pair of chars is a "kinda ascii hex byte", because i didnt want to spend another day doing upD7801 asm (when i didnt have the manual)

Code:
So Instead of
0123456789ABCDEF my kinda hex its
0123456789:;<=>?

Say first line:
4824=0??54?1????54?4<6

4824D0FF54F1FFFF54F4 checksum: C6



22 chars, so 11 bytes. 10 first bytes are from the BIOS, and the last byte is a u8 check sum for the whole thing to date (yes it overflows) Ive even given you C++ to decode it.l please give this to someone who knows how to compile and run code





Thank you, plgDavid ! smile
Understand now your way, I think.
I am sure someone with knowledge can compile and run the code, if the typed screens are correct.

Posted By: plgDavid

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/09/09 05:38 PM

Again if the typed screens are wrong, the checksum will tell you which page and which line.
Provided you change the code to loop on 33 pages of 13 lines and not 30 pages of 14 lines like i used for the PAL bios

what else could i say? smile
Posted By: Anna Wu

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/09/09 05:55 PM

Originally Posted By plgDavid
Again if the typed screens are wrong, the checksum will tell you which page and which line.
Provided you change the code to loop on 33 pages of 13 lines and not 30 pages of 14 lines like i used for the PAL bios

what else could i say? smile


smile

Posted By: Lord Nightmare

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/09/09 08:07 PM

Where can i get the 33 'typed' pages from the project? I can whip up a decoder for them to spit out a rom in an hour or so.

LN
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/09/09 08:33 PM

I've sent s_bastian a message about getting the results.
Posted By: Stiletto

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/09/09 09:33 PM

Unofficially, http://www.progettoemma.net/dump/read.php?&img=XX&user=Y
where X=1 to 33 and Y=1 to 2
diffing and double-checking where necessary.
But it's risky, you could modify the typed pages by accident.
Posted By: Lord Nightmare

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/10/09 06:51 AM

http://www.pastebin.ca/1708806
working on a decoder.
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/10/09 10:33 PM

I just corrected a number of discrepancies in the images, so I'd be wary of those results. Anyway, check your PM for the current output.
Posted By: Stiletto

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/10/09 11:58 PM

It was a low caffeine day for me, that's my excuse if any wrong... smile
Posted By: Just Desserts

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/11/09 12:09 AM

You shouldn't have to be correcting anything, the whole point of the typing monkeys site was that it flagged anything that was wrong when you went to correct it. Otherwise it's just a website where people can type any old random shit into it. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Posted By: Lord Nightmare

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/11/09 12:34 AM

Its a website where people can type any old random shit into it. but the decoded data should be plenty obvious if its wrong.

LN
Posted By: Lord Nightmare

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/11/09 01:25 AM

The decoder reports no incorrect checksums in the running accumulator (i tested it by deliberately introducing an error, which it detected)
The resulting 4096 byte file has:
md5sum: 635a978fd40db9a18ee44eff449fc126
sha1sum: 6e89d1227581c76441a53d605f9e324185f1da33
crc32: 7ac06182
sum16: 8afc

This matches the rom plgdavid dumped.
Posted By: Just Desserts

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/11/09 01:26 AM

You're mistaken, when that PGM ARM7 dump was done by the typing monkeys, I distinctly remember it doing the checksum against your results for you to prevent incorrect results. What happened to that functionality?
Posted By: Lord Nightmare

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/11/09 01:27 AM

um, i think it would have been too hard to code into the typing monkey thing on short notice? I saw a few images which had errors in them when i was copying them to pastebin, mostly missing characters or completely missing lines.
Posted By: Just Desserts

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/11/09 01:31 AM

Originally Posted By Lord Nightmare
um, i think it would have been too hard to code into the typing monkey thing on short notice? I saw a few images which had errors in them when i was copying them to pastebin, mostly missing characters or completely missing lines.


What do you mean, "code into"? I thought it already had the functionality to run some form of checksum on the data that people were entering in.

It's a moot point overall since you've gotten a good dump, but I thought part of the typing monkeys benefit is the tacit guarantee that you're getting good data, and that 4chan can't come along and write five lines of "COCKS" sixteen times for whatever and have it go through.
Posted By: Lord Nightmare

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/11/09 01:33 AM

I'm not in charge of the typing monkey thing; i know it DOES have the ability to checksum stuff, but i don't think that was enabled for the scv project. If it was enbaled, it seems it didn't work.
I will however shut up now since i don't know.

LN
Posted By: plgDavid

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/11/09 02:37 AM

Hey congrats for the bios dump!
Glad to know its the same one between the PAL and the NTSC-J machines!
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/11/09 03:46 AM

The BIOS trojan program, in this case, used a cumulative checksum rather than a per-line checksum, so using it would have been a new functionality. In any case, it wasn't enabled, so two people typed in results for each image, and the program flagged any lines that didn't agree. I looked at all the problem areas and corrected the disagreements. There were several mistakes, but everyone seemed to be trying to get it right.
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/11/09 03:47 AM

And yes, good to hear that the dump is available, and we now know the two versions of the console use the same code.
Posted By: Lord Nightmare

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/11/09 08:22 AM

Btw guru, can you measure the vblank/hblank timings from the scv? The japanese-ntsc and pal-e versions of it must have very different video timings and frame rates...

LN
Posted By: Anna Wu

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/11/09 08:24 AM

Originally Posted By ranger_lennier
And yes, good to hear that the dump is available, and we now know the two versions of the console use the same code.


This dump (NTSC console)is working on Takeda´s eSCV emulator. smile
Thanks goes to Guru, ranger_lennier, plgDavid , Lord Nightmare and JD to make this possible.
I am sure, a SCV driver for MESS will coming soon.




Posted By: Guru

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/11/09 09:50 AM

I tested all the carts I dumped and only Battle Galaxy doesn't work? Were you able to get it running? I tried doubling the ROM to 16k then it showed something on screen but only static junk. Maybe that ROM is bad?
Also, for the SCV emulator, only the GDI version worked for me? The DX9 version just comes up with a black screen but if I load a cart I can hear it running. Is there some trick to get it to show something on screen or doesn't it work?
Posted By: Anna Wu

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/11/09 10:19 AM

Originally Posted By Guru
I tested all the carts I dumped and only Battle Galaxy doesn't work? Were you able to get it running? I tried doubling the ROM to 16k then it showed something on screen but only static junk. Maybe that ROM is bad?
Also, for the SCV emulator, only the GDI version worked for me? The DX9 version just comes up with a black screen but if I load a cart I can hear it running. Is there some trick to get it to show something on screen or doesn't it work?


Battle Galaxy (8192 bytes), is the only cart which is not working (eSCV) for me too.
Not sure, it is a bad dump or eSCV not support carts with this size.
The other carts (16384 bytes) are working. Unfortunately, I have no other 8KB (if exist) or 32KB cart images.
I use the D3D9 version. Is your DirectX/graphic card driver up to date?
Posted By: Anna Wu

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/11/09 10:49 AM

I am not a expert but can it be the 8KB are only the SRAM ?

scv.txt :

Quote:
--- Cart ROM images

Cart ROM image header:

db id[4] 'SCV^Z' (54h,43h,56h,1ah)
db ctype 0 = 16KB, 32KB, 32KB + 8KB
1 = 32KB + 8KB SRAM
2 = 32KB + 32KB, 32KB + 32KB + 32KB + 32KB
db reserver[11]

(note: if no header, it is recognized that ctype must be 0)

ctype = 0
* Standard cart
16KB ($8000-$BFFF)
* Milky Princess
* Super Sansu-puter
32KB ($8000-$FFFF)
* Mappy
32KB (PC5=1, $8000-$FFFF)
* Nekketsu Kung-fu Road
* Star Speeder
32KB (PC5=0, $8000-$FFFF) +
8KB (PC5=1, $e000-$FFFF)

ctype = 1
* BASIC Nyu-mon
* Dragon Slayer
* Pop & Chips
* Shogi Nyumon
32KB (PC5=0, $8000-$FFFF) +
8KB SRAM

ctype = 2
* Doraemon
* Sky Kid
32KB (PC5=0, $8000-$FFFF) +
32KB (PC5=1, $8000-$FFFF)
* Dragon Dai Hikyou
32KB (PC5=0/1 PC6=0, $8000-$FFFF) +
32KB (PC5=0/1 PC6=0, $8000-$FFFF) +
32KB (PC5=0 PC6=1, $8000-$FFFF) +
32KB (PC5=1 PC6=1, $8000-$FFFF)
* Pole Position 2 (?)
* Rantou Prowres
* Waiwai(Y2) Monster Land
32KB (PC5=0 PC6=0, $8000-$FFFF) +
32KB (PC5=1 PC6=0, $8000-$FFFF) +
32KB (PC5=0 PC6=1, $8000-$FFFF) +
32KB (PC5=1 PC6=1, $8000-$FFFF)


Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/11/09 06:53 PM

Originally Posted By Guru
I tested all the carts I dumped and only Battle Galaxy doesn't work? Were you able to get it running? I tried doubling the ROM to 16k then it showed something on screen but only static junk. Maybe that ROM is bad?


Does the cart work in the system?
Posted By: Guru

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/12/09 01:52 AM

Originally Posted By ranger_lennier
Does the cart work in the system?


Yes, it works fine. I've dumped plenty of 2364 ROMs in the past with no issues and there's readable plain text in the ROM so I would say the dump is ok. The fact that the game partially works in eSCV when the ROM is doubled to 16k suggests the emulator doesn't support 8k ROMs.

btw, the cart contains just one 2364 mask ROM. There is no SRAM etc. There are probably more exotic carts out there with multiple ROMs and SRAM etc, but we don't have any of those. There are no 8k games listed in the eSCV readme so clearly the eSCV author didn't have Battle Galaxy to add support for 8k ROMs.
Posted By: Anna Wu

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/12/09 07:06 AM

Originally Posted By Guru
Originally Posted By ranger_lennier
Does the cart work in the system?


Yes, it works fine. I've dumped plenty of 2364 ROMs in the past with no issues and there's readable plain text in the ROM so I would say the dump is ok. The fact that the game partially works in eSCV when the ROM is doubled to 16k suggests the emulator doesn't support 8k ROMs.

btw, the cart contains just one 2364 mask ROM. There is no SRAM etc. There are probably more exotic carts out there with multiple ROMs and SRAM etc, but we don't have any of those. There are no 8k games listed in the eSCV readme so clearly the eSCV author didn't have Battle Galaxy to add support for 8k ROMs.


Thank you for the info, Guru. smile
So I think, eSCV simply not support 8k ROM´s.

Posted By: Anna Wu

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/12/09 08:11 AM

2 another dumped game carts (EPOCH Super Cassette Vision cartridge NTSC, 16384 bytes) working on Takeda´s eSCV emulator.







Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/12/09 08:26 AM

I hadn't mentioned it before, but Guru also redumped Wheelie Racer. This time, the results matched plgDavid's dump. So, I believe the old dump was bad (even if it's close enough to also work in the emulator). So at least in this case, the European and Japanese carts are identical.
Posted By: s_bastian

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/12/09 08:40 AM

Just a couple of words on the typing monkey page:

- The system is based on the aim that people will be WILLING to help, and not to mess up everything. So, YES, there is actually the chance that people type bulls**t on it, we just have to hope nobody does it, and rely on afterwork checks to fix any obvious attempt of sabotage. For the same reason, there is no registration, security check or antispam (well, there actually IS an antibot feature wink ) so contributors are not stressed by captcha or whatever and can contribute freely. With this philosophy we translated the whole history.dat in Italian in about one month, using people&#8217;s spare time, so I consider it a successful philosophy, and I'm not willing to change it unless I'm forced to.

- The system MIGHT be able to do whatever checksum check we want, provided I'm informed about it. I was not aware that there was a checksum check in this dump too, so I disabled the existing feature (that would have not fitted the actual dump, being it VERY different). Should it be needed, it can be restored and tuned on the needed checksum

- The project has been used just a couple of times, and with different needs, so it can be considered a Work in Progress. It can be evolved, developed, and tuned to fit all needs (provided a poor php programmer as I am is able to do it! wink ). For example, now I had to setup a manual check to find out discrepancy, but for more extensive jobs, using MUCH more pages, and without a checksum to check against, it might be useful to have THREE readings of each image so that I can setup a "best out of three" automation. This will use a lot of Monkey Work (but we should have it wink ) but will make the revision job MUCH easier. AFAIK, Ranger had to revise something like 12 pages. There is a "per-line" compairason system, so the revision is pretty easy and straightforward, but 1/3 of the processed pages had mistakes, if you multiply this to a 100+ images dump, the revision could take more than the reding itself

The system was designed to be flexible and can be setup for use within minutes. If you need it, or want to share some advices, you know where to find me wink
Posted By: Anna Wu

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/12/09 09:23 AM

Here are the checksums for the dumped EPOCH Super Cassette Vision NTSC Bios and Game Cartridges (J) :

Bios
Size: 4096 bytes
SHA1: 6e89d1227581c76441a53d605f9e324185f1da33
CRC32: 7ac06182

Battle in Galaxy
Size: 8192 bytes
SHA1: 7b1073339a4641d4e0f00b284c64fc3c6d385b7c
CRC32: 19056c71

Elevator Fight
Size: 16384 bytes
SHA1: 8b2c185408309ee1e75d40299c003041db17b133
CRC32: 72dd6031

Nebula
Size: 16384 bytes
SHA1: 699eaf434e73a42e71adf52426b22f0dd85e2897
CRC32: 5e6a4caf

Punch Boy
Size: 16384 bytes
SHA1: e7391c71ba7deede3db22191ea058ccf429d7bb5
CRC32: 4107f03a

Super Baseball
Size: 16384 bytes
SHA1: 37a1dce6c1921950c588d6492cd1b57feb615175
CRC32: 56f1c473

Super Golf
Size: 16384 bytes
SHA1: 2d3ab09907a4a9c5d66306f316c7211f498cbcc2
CRC32: 0c0581c9

Super Soccer
Size: 16384 bytes
SHA1: 951ecd2a1d2e7d900c13e91ff028723a9df9e60e
CRC32: 590eeefd

Wheelie Racer
Size: 16384 bytes
SHA1: 479f767384e7b7bfe58eeadd67dbe642fe8a2fcf
CRC32: 9d9b29db
Posted By: plgDavid

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 01/08/10 02:43 PM

Hi

I finally managed to dump my remaining carts (thanks to kevtris's 27512 adress trick)

Nebula (16kb upD23128AC) :
MD5: e86aab083fc9722f8a44b356139522c2
SHA-1: 699eaf434e73a42e71adf52426b22f0dd85e2897
RIPEMD-160: c24bd4c373950b40e92435f708caed6e28e0bea4
SHA-256: 5f40c6bdcbf579f292ef8ed6b6fc018392a164fc0bf635f48a5cb3c624eea79e

Super Soccer (16kb upD23128AC) :
MD5: dd60e91b361fdc8bc8ead3d76c45897c
SHA-1: 61e4b8e43cc593b3a2e838c08f6dad6cca77d712
RIPEMD-160: 37c4861cc5a3297d2476bcb72af622439e380775
SHA-256: 9922e4bc2c06be50dd6fb3aa6ec2e562562d0d7cb8c7a9bd00fea888194b6d21

Super Soccer(pal) is either different, or obviously either of us got a bad dump.
Posted By: Anna Wu

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 01/08/10 06:00 PM

Originally Posted By plgDavid
Hi

I finally managed to dump my remaining carts (thanks to kevtris's 27512 adress trick)

Nebula (16kb upD23128AC) :
MD5: e86aab083fc9722f8a44b356139522c2
SHA-1: 699eaf434e73a42e71adf52426b22f0dd85e2897
RIPEMD-160: c24bd4c373950b40e92435f708caed6e28e0bea4
SHA-256: 5f40c6bdcbf579f292ef8ed6b6fc018392a164fc0bf635f48a5cb3c624eea79e

Super Soccer (16kb upD23128AC) :
MD5: dd60e91b361fdc8bc8ead3d76c45897c
SHA-1: 61e4b8e43cc593b3a2e838c08f6dad6cca77d712
RIPEMD-160: 37c4861cc5a3297d2476bcb72af622439e380775
SHA-256: 9922e4bc2c06be50dd6fb3aa6ec2e562562d0d7cb8c7a9bd00fea888194b6d21

Super Soccer(pal) is either different, or obviously either of us got a bad dump.

Not know, but my Super Soccer(NTSC)image file show me this checksum :

MD5: 5cd60ad0a9bfb818db9c4e5accc05537
SHA-1: 951ecd2a1d2e7d900c13e91ff028723a9df9e60e
RIPEMD-160: ebfbd9632926a8016101bae0b6f024c6648e39cd
SHA-256: ffac28848f451e38e4886a9cbeab8edb38f3b7b28b0ea34c44da5c8d15857d2f

and it is working on MESS and eSCV emulator.

Except your 16K carts, do you have any carts with another rom image size (8K, 32K) ?
Posted By: plgDavid

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 01/08/10 07:22 PM

Not for the moment im afraid.
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 01/08/10 09:43 PM

Does your dump work in eSVC and MESS, plgDavid?
Posted By: plgDavid

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 01/09/10 02:27 AM

Yes, it appears its a different version of the same cart both work.
i sent my diff to LN.
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 01/11/10 05:36 PM

Just bought up a Casio PV-1000 cart (Pooyan) and a Funtech Super A'can cart (Monopoly: Adventure in Africa), should be here in a few weeks.
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 01/12/10 01:07 AM

I think that's the first Casio PV-1000 thing we'll have seen. I saw some on eBay in the past, but they were too expensive for me at the time.
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 01/12/10 01:49 AM

Originally Posted By ranger_lennier
I think that's the first Casio PV-1000 thing we'll have seen. I saw some on eBay in the past, but they were too expensive for me at the time.


Same here, plgDavid tipped me off about these two in the irc channel.
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 01/24/10 09:39 AM

Has anyone heard of this? It's called a Video Challenger, but sounds like a completely different system than the Bandai Video Challenger. Maybe it's an early plug and play type console.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Video-Challenger-Vin...=item518e9f21c7
Posted By: Anna Wu

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 01/24/10 10:48 AM

Originally Posted By ranger_lennier
Has anyone heard of this? It's called a Video Challenger, but sounds like a completely different system than the Bandai Video Challenger. Maybe it's an early plug and play type console.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Video-Challenger-Vin...=item518e9f21c7


Not find any information in the Internet. The pictures are not clear enough, who was the manufacturer ?
Posted By: sminty

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 01/24/10 12:42 PM

Originally Posted By ranger_lennier
Has anyone heard of this? It's called a Video Challenger, but sounds like a completely different system than the Bandai Video Challenger. Maybe it's an early plug and play type console.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Video-Challenger-Vin...=item518e9f21c7


Tiny bit of info here:
http://ultimateconsoledatabase.com/famiclones/video_challenger.htm
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 01/25/10 03:03 AM

Thanks for the info:

"Famicom clone which plays (to my knowledge) original shooter games. The little box in the pic doesn't have a cartridge slot and that image on it is just a sticker, not a screen (too bad.) Nice to see one of these things that doesn't have crappy hacks of useless games. Has at least 10 unique shooter games. More info is needed."

That sounds reasonably interesting. I'm feeling tapped out at the moment, but if anyone wants to buy and dump it, that would be cool. $75 or best offer.
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 01/26/10 05:48 AM

Now announcing--dumps of the VideoBrain BIOS and five carts- Gladiator, Wordwise 1, Wordwise 2, Music Teacher 1, and Video Artist. Thanks to Sean Riddle.

The VideoBrain is a home computer from 1977. It uses the same processor as the Channel F, and was the first computer to use cartridges.

http://www.atariprotos.com/othersystems/videobrain/videobrain.htm

I'm hoping that some people I know will be willing to loan out additional cartridges for dumping.
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 01/26/10 11:37 AM

Thats great news ranger_lennier! Sean Riddle has always been very kind with dumping for us in the past smile.

I just bought this, it's a cart for the original Cassette Vision (not the Super).

At first I thought this system was some kind of pong clone with carts, but this video changed my mind and made me buy it. Hopefully I can dump this with the programmer I currently have.
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 01/26/10 07:19 PM

The original Cassette Vision is an interesting system--looks kind of Atari 2600-like. I've actually sent that cart to Guru, though. Apparently it uses very obscure ROM chips, so they haven't been dumped.

Here's what I've got:

6 Epoch Cassette Vision carts on loan to Guru: Baseball, Monster Mansion, Battle Vader, Yosaku, Monster Block, and Galaxian
3 more Epoch Cassette Vision carts: Astro Command, New Baseball, and Big Sports 12

Also, Ian Knowles:

Epoch Cassettevision junior and pakpak monster game.

The Cassette Vision Junior is just a smaller version of the Cassette Vision.
Posted By: Stiletto

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 01/27/10 04:31 AM

Originally Posted By ranger_lennier
Apparently it uses very obscure ROM chips, so they haven't been dumped.


NEC 777C, if I remember correctly. I don't think anything else has been discovered yet.
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 01/27/10 01:28 PM

http://bit.ly/9q3tRx 12-bit CPU?

Posted By: Stiletto

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 01/27/10 01:34 PM

Originally Posted By Stiletto
Originally Posted By ranger_lennier
Apparently it uses very obscure ROM chips, so they haven't been dumped.


NEC 777C, if I remember correctly. I don't think anything else has been discovered yet.


Oh yeah, I forgot - it's supposedly a 42-pin 12-bit LSI "CPU" with internal ROM, and another name is D777C (short for uPD777C or µPD777C maybe). Possibly in a real ancient NEC databook somewhere? laugh
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/cvs/odyssey/hyperlink/setframe_cv1.html
Posted By: Stiletto

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 01/27/10 04:32 PM

Originally Posted By incog


Yeah, my bad, that's "known" already. Verified, now, that's the question. laugh
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 01/27/10 08:11 PM

Cool sites--probably lots of good info there. I read the interview, or at least as well as I could in machine translation ("I Teramati VCS [] at the time I wanted to have sex is inevitable that the Inbedagemu.") It does sound like the Cassette Vision uses an NEC microcontroller, as does the standalone TV Baseball game, which is said to be identical to one of the Cassette Vision games. If this is the case, I suspect the base system doesn't even have a processor or BIOS (perhaps Ian Knowles could confirm this). This wouldn't be unheard of--the Gakken TV Boy Compact Vision is actually set up the same way. It could complicate dumping, though. The chips might even need to be decapped to extract the data.

Has anyone looked for the references they list? --

[Tried to post the Kanji as well--looked OK on the preview, not so much on the post.]

No. 1981 Mon 6 separate volume Toizumagajin guides "flagship", No. 7 Mon /'s Toizumagajin
Battle of the electronic game
HOT DOG PRESS No.457 / Kodansha
Epoch Co. (General / products) Catalog 1980-1985 / Epoch Co.
Market demand analysis and future development of a home computer Homubideogemu / (shares) Yano Research Institute
Technopolis Fall 1983 issue (issue number unknown) / Tokuma Shoten
Epoch Co., the legendary video games, accessories handbook / 2005 / Epoch Co.

See also these updates --

Apart from these and magazine PC "Technopolis" in the 1983 autumn issue of Hobby machine features, as a result of analysis from the circuit configuration, this chip is 12-bit CPU (Model: D777C) has to be stated. Technopolis magazine at the time, there is a strong series of reports from mechatronics to break down the hard part, perhaps even this analysis, known as "Taki's Balazs," I added by hand. There is also overlap with Horie's story is hard to believe what a powerful theory.

Vision cassette 4-bit theory, Nikkei Sangyo Shimbun, 25 apparently in May 1983 issue of "research paper" is similar to the first covered them. The articles appeared in the directors Tsuda Epoch Co., will be present at the interview is usually publicized, said cassette to a vision that is familiar to the CPU and the parts are hard to think about it. That said, the Nikkei newspaper hand "4-bit game machine" is not to write (first) and no, this is an answer will probably Epoch Co.. Whatever the truth that vision cassette 4-bit theory can say that they are powerful. But, just as it happened What a do?
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 01/28/10 10:54 PM

I see that Battle In Galaxy for Super Cassette Vision has been marked "bad dump, refuses to work on real h/w". Did plgDavid test this? There must be something unique about this one, as Guru dumped it at 8Kb, while all the others are 16Kb.
Posted By: Duke

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 01/28/10 11:13 PM

Yeah he tried it on real hardware and it didn't work. Another 8kb game worked fine though, so his setup should be fine.
Posted By: Haze

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 01/28/10 11:54 PM

Originally Posted By Duke
Yeah he tried it on real hardware and it didn't work. Another 8kb game worked fine though, so his setup should be fine.


Shouldn't it be marked with the BAD_DUMP flag instead of being disabled / removed? There isn't a better dump available, but if the only reason it's been marked as bad is it doesn't work when tested on real hw then it could turn out to be a mirroring issue specific to that cart or similar, or, if it does have some bad bits something easily patched in code until there is a better dump available.
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 01/29/10 12:25 AM

I tend agree, as it is the best dump available. But perhaps Guru will be able to redump it and the issue will be fixed quickly.
Posted By: etabeta78

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 01/29/10 07:57 AM

Originally Posted By Haze
Shouldn't it be marked with the BAD_DUMP flag instead of being disabled / removed?


of course, it should. I had PMed incog about it, and it's been fixed. no big deal.
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 01/29/10 08:14 AM

Guru's confirmed that the original cart works. He will try to get a redump.
Posted By: plgDavid

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 01/29/10 11:53 AM

Hi

If i trust this picture, its supposed to work in eSCV:
http://hou4gong1.mo-blog.jp/photos/uncategorized/rom1.jpg

Of course we can't tell the version of the emulator from the screenshot.

[EDIT]: my Astro Wars's 99070 (8kb) board UPD2364HC's CS line (pin20) requires high for active.

My new test cart (modified Epoch 99100) uses a 7404 to invert that line coming from the console to feed my 27128's !OE (pin22) line. This is the only setup that doesnt cause Astro Wars to display garbage when 'replayed' on the console.

Posted By: Darkk

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 01/29/10 04:13 PM

A friend of mine pointed out to me to check the wiki for needed games to be dumped, and much to my surprise I actually have something on that list that I can contribute.

I have all four numbered cartridges for the 1977 Coleco Telstar Arcade hiding somewhere in my garage. Provided I can properly dig them out of the rubble... who would be interested in borrowing them from me for a dump?
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 01/29/10 10:11 PM

Originally Posted By Darkk
A friend of mine pointed out to me to check the wiki for needed games to be dumped, and much to my surprise I actually have something on that list that I can contribute.

I have all four numbered cartridges for the 1977 Coleco Telstar Arcade hiding somewhere in my garage. Provided I can properly dig them out of the rubble... who would be interested in borrowing them from me for a dump?


I have these as well, but I believe they use microcontrollers with mask ROM that can't be easily dumped.
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 01/29/10 10:16 PM

Big thanks to Toby Wickwire for loaning out his VideoBrain carts, and Sean Riddle for more dumping. Now, these carts are also dumped:

ED02 Math Tutor 1
ED06 Lemonade Stand
EN02 Pinball
EN03 Tennis
EN04 Checkers
EN05 Blackjack
EN06 Vice Versa
Posted By: Darkk

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 01/29/10 11:39 PM

Quote:
I have these as well, but I believe they use microcontrollers with mask ROM that can't be easily dumped.


Alrighty, I won't worry about them then. I'll just keep an eye out for anything else that might pop up on the wanted list though... I have a lot of computer and software equipment from the 8-bit computer era hanging about in storage.
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 02/25/10 01:28 AM

Originally Posted By ranger_lennier
Thanks for the info:

"Famicom clone which plays (to my knowledge) original shooter games. The little box in the pic doesn't have a cartridge slot and that image on it is just a sticker, not a screen (too bad.) Nice to see one of these things that doesn't have crappy hacks of useless games. Has at least 10 unique shooter games. More info is needed."

That sounds reasonably interesting. I'm feeling tapped out at the moment, but if anyone wants to buy and dump it, that would be cool. $75 or best offer.


One of these Video Challengers came up for a lower price, and I bought it. It's not what I expected. It's from Pelican Accessories, and the title screen says copyright 1999 by Mani Systems Limited and Gameone Systems Limited. It's a small plug and play system with 13 shooting games--Face To Face, Egyptian Tomb, Animal Farm, Cyber Mission, Ladder Runner, Fortress War, Shooting Stars, Hot Shot, Bat Attack, Shoot For Speed, Match Ace, Shark Hunt, and Pig Racing. I couldn't get the shooting to work on my LCD TV, so I can't offer a review.

The hardware is very small. I'm skeptical of the claim that it uses Famicom hardware, but I don't know.
Posted By: mangamuscle

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 02/25/10 03:21 AM

I was looking for information on the Unitron Mac512 (some article states that on the finished computer the roms were loaded into ram like in the amiga 1000) reverse engineered roms and found about an unusual mac clone (68030 based), the NuTek one and duet which besides having roms that partially reverse engineered mac roms, had it's own OS that could run some applications. I understand why such system had a very limited success, but from the preservation point of view looks quite interesting (and I checked and is not included in the mess wiki).
Posted By: Gilles Fétis

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 02/25/10 09:29 AM

I have sanyo PHC25 european roms if someone is interested (I also have adapted to euro roms an obscure japanese emulator).
Posted By: Gilles Fétis

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 02/25/10 04:27 PM

If someone wanna try this old beast:

original emulator:
http://www.geocities.jp/sanyo_phc_25/phc25emu.html

my port + euros roms + more
http://www.alternative-system.com/specific/emu/phc25/phc25.zip
Posted By: Anna Wu

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 02/25/10 06:05 PM

Originally Posted By Gilles Fétis
If someone wanna try this old beast:

original emulator:
http://www.geocities.jp/sanyo_phc_25/phc25emu.html

my port + euros roms + more
http://www.alternative-system.com/specific/emu/phc25/phc25.zip


Thank you for your great help. smile
I contact Micko already to ask for a new driver support on MESS.
Posted By: Anna Wu

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 02/25/10 08:46 PM

Originally Posted By Anna Wu
Originally Posted By Gilles Fétis
If someone wanna try this old beast:

original emulator:
http://www.geocities.jp/sanyo_phc_25/phc25emu.html

my port + euros roms + more
http://www.alternative-system.com/specific/emu/phc25/phc25.zip


Thank you for your great help. smile
I contact Micko already to ask for a new driver support on MESS.


Just see, Curt add it as skeleton driver. smile
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/14/10 12:17 AM

I've managed to get my Super Cassette Vision carts dumped. It looks like "Giants Hara Tatsunori no Super Baseball" is just a box variation of the regular "Super Baseball," unless of course at some point the wrong cart got matched to the box (the cart just says "Super Baseball as well). Considering the other recent dumps that can be seen in the software list, that leaves just nine to go:

/* Basic Nyuumon */
/* Dragon Ball */
/* Dragon Slayer */
/* Mappy */
/* Nekketsu Kung Fu Road */
/* Sky Kid */
/* Star Speeder */
/* Ton Ton Ball */
/* Wai Wai Monster Land */

Still working on the other stuff in my collection...
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/14/10 12:44 AM

I found another "Giants Hara Tatsunori no Super Baseball" up for auction, and confirmed that it also just says "Super Baseball" on the cart.
Posted By: judge

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/14/10 06:21 AM

Can you see some kind of number on the cartridge or box?
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/14/10 12:39 PM

There's nothing on the cart, but the side of the box has number 5.
Posted By: Link83

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/18/10 03:06 PM

Hi all, i'm new here so I hope this is OK to ask. I came across this thread through a google search and noticed these posts from a couple of years ago:-
http://www.bannister.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=3073&Number=42208#Post42208
Originally Posted By Guru
Originally Posted By MooglyGuy

Hey Guru, what are the chances that if I shipped you an N64 and an N64 cartridge of each CIC type you could get all of the major on-board N64 chips decapped - specifically, whatever one contains the PIF - as well as each CIC decapped? It's known that the CICs are some form of 4-bit Sharp MCU, but ID and either optical or electrical readout would be a massive help to N64 emulation, and I'd like to test my theory that the PIF controller on the N64 motherboard is an MCU itself.

There's also a chance, albeit small, that N64 controllers "intelligent" devices, what would be the chances of getting one of those fellows taken care of?

Yeah, send it out. I sent you an email...

Since it has been a couple of years I just wondered if the N64 CIC's had been successfully decapped/read? Also, does the Guru need any PAL N64 CIC's for decapping?

Thanks in advance for any info.
Posted By: Just Desserts

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/18/10 06:00 PM

No, no forward progress on decapping.
Posted By: Link83

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/19/10 10:40 AM

Originally Posted By Just Desserts
No, no forward progress on decapping.

Sorry to hear that - is this due to a lack of funding?
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/19/10 11:51 AM

No, it's because there's been an uptick in full-price "day job" decapping over the last year and that obviously takes priority over us.
Posted By: Rudi

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/20/10 11:34 AM

Hello everyone, im new to this forum and this is my first post.

I have a calculator and I was wondering if it where possible to transfer assembly mnemonics to it (though i havent buyed the cables yet). I just want to get some valuable information before i do so.

The Service Manual & Part List for the Casio CFX-9850G Plus says that it is a Hitachi CPU called HCD62121A03 (HC-3017). It has a 21-bit address bus and a 8-bit data bus. and the Clock pulse is 4.3Mhz which is the same as in the Z80. maybe they use the same instruction set?
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/20/10 11:47 AM

This is really neither the right forum nor the right thread to be asking that. I would suggest finding a forum for users of those calculators and asking them about it, but to briefly cover one thing that CPU is unlikely to be Z80 compatible since the Z80 only has 16 address lines.
Posted By: judge

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/20/10 12:28 PM

a lot of details on the 9850 cpu are unknown, including the instruction set. So this will make it a bit more challenging to create code wink
Posted By: Stiletto

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/20/10 06:03 PM

Yes. Pretty much if Hitachi makes it and it starts with HCD62* or HD62*, it means "Hi, I'm a custom chip!"
Posted By: ht1848

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 05/24/10 03:53 PM

Just a bump and an update to Bad/Missing page for release .138 on wiki...

http://mess.redump.net/dumping:badmissing

Anyone have any of these systems available for dumping?
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 05/24/10 05:05 PM

The only things I own in the need of dumping now is a "Bush Internet Surf Set", an ARM powered, internet enabled set-top box from the early 90's kinda running RISC OS. I recently picked up on eBay for £1.

The only reason It's not dumped yet is it uses a 42 pin mask rom, my reader only handles up to 40 pin.
Posted By: robcfg

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 05/24/10 07:46 PM

Is the Bush Internet Surf Set an Acorn Network Computer?

A friend of mine has the motherboard of one of those. Pity it has smd mask roms...
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 05/25/10 11:02 AM

What's epochtv.chr for the Super Cassette Vision?
Posted By: Robbbert

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 05/25/10 11:20 AM

The character generator. The one in there may have been typed in, rather than dumped. I think check with Judge..
Posted By: judge

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 05/25/10 11:26 AM

It is manually typed in. The video chip contains a character data which can only be dumped by decapping.

I looked at the characters on screenshots and created the character data from that.
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 07/14/10 02:49 AM

I just received, in my opinion, one of my best eBay finds ever--nine MPT-02 carts (Bingo, Biorhythm, Concentration Match, Grand Pack, Gunfighter/Moonship Battle, Math Fun, Pinball, Speedway/Tag, and Star Wars). The MPT-02 is a color clone of the RCA Studio II. According to some sites, Bingo was released for the Studio II itself, but I've never seen any evidence of it, so I think it was only released for the clone systems. I've been looking for it for years, as it was the only known game that I didn't have any version of. And what completely took me by surprise is Grand Pack (MG-200), which I'd never heard of at all. However, the cart lists games like Blackjack and Bowling that are the same as the built-in games. So I don't really understand this one, unless some version didn't have the games built in. Or maybe, the cart is actually blank, though it seems heavy enough. I don't have a system here to test with.

Now, Charles or Guru or someone just needs to figure out how to dump these. I see that the BIOS for one of the MPT-02 versions is in MESS now. How did this surface?
Posted By: Stiletto

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 07/14/10 04:48 AM

Originally Posted By ranger_lennier
Now, Charles or Guru or someone just needs to figure out how to dump these. I see that the BIOS for one of the MPT-02 versions is in MESS now. How did this surface?


Checked in by Curt 12/16/2009, not sure about other than that yet: http://git.redump.net/cgit.cgi/mess/commit/?id=b08e345fdef54bc5cbaf3535eea31d7caedc075e
Posted By: Curt Coder

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 07/14/10 10:27 AM

I found it from the rcacosmac Yahoo! group. It's from a Soundic Victory MPT-02.
Posted By: Praxis

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/04/10 11:42 AM

Hello MESS forum folk. This is my first post here (I'm usually found lurking over on the Mameworld forums). Moderators, feel free to change or move or whatever this reply if it's wrong in any way.

I'm gradually selling lots of old bits on eBay. Before I (re) list this again to try and shift it, I thought I'd offer it to you chaps, if it's of any use for dumping/preserving.

They are Western Digital WD1003-WA2 & WD1003-RA2 16-bit ISA HDD and FDD controller cards from the MFM era. Rescued from some old systems at a local tip, I've not been able to test them.

No idea if anything is dumpable, which is why I'm asking here.

P.S. I'm in London and will happily post to wherever, if someone can cover the postage.

[img]http://yfrog.com/n3controllerscablescombinj[/img]
Posted By: Lord Nightmare

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/04/10 08:05 PM

Praxis: the chip at U2 on both of those is an i8051 MCU, which needs decapping, iirc.

There's also a built in rom bios which i think is contained within the giant asic in the middle, and is dumpable using msdos debug.

LN
Posted By: Praxis

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/05/10 12:50 PM

Hi LN, thanks for the reply! It would be great if they can be of some use.

To re-ask my original question, who wants them? They're packed and ready to be posted. I'm afraid I need some help to cover the postage though. I'm unemployed here, which is one of the reasons I've been trying to sell my collection on eBay :-(

If you or anyone here wants them, reply here or PM me your location so we can sort out postage.

Thanks
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/14/10 08:05 PM

I just received my first bulk shipment of Japanese auction wins. I got three new videos for the Bandai Video Challenger--Sky Wars, Godzilla Challenge 1, and Godzilla Challenge 2. I also got PakPak Monster for the Cassette Vision. One win was a pretty cheap and very eclectic collection of games. This one particularly caught my eye on account of Mr. Bomb for the Gakken TV Boy. Some other stuff I'm pretty sure is dumped--Japanese versions of games for the NES, SNES, N64, Atari 2600, Neo Geo Pocket Color, and Wonderswan. Some other systems I don't know as much about, and in some cases the names are given in Japanese only. There are three carts for the Casio Loopy, so maybe there are some incog hasn't collected yet. There are three smaller carts I can't really identify. Two of them have a Super Famicom logo, so perhaps they're some sort of add-on to a larger cart. There are some MSX carts--Dam Busters, 2 Bee Packs (whatever those are), and the Panasoft FM Pana Amusement Cartridge. There is a Pokemon Mini cart with the name all in Japanese. There's a T-BASIC cassette tape for the Pasopia 7. There's a cassette tape from Koei for the PC 6001 MK II. Then there's a strange cartridge with a switch on it with what may be just a homemade label. I uploaded a picture of some of the more interesting ones to Flickr. If any of these are needed for something, let me know.

http://flic.kr/p/8sh3eS
Posted By: Kale

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/14/10 09:36 PM

I also see a completely undumped Shogi game for the Pasopia 7, unless that's the T-BASIC with a different label?

So, as far as I know we need:
* the three Casio Loopy carts (even though we still don't have the BIOS dump);
* T-BASIC and the Shogi game for Pasopia 7
* The Koei game for PC-6001 Mk 2.

I don't know much about the status of the other items.
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/14/10 10:01 PM

The Pasopia 7 tape says "T-BASIC 7" on the label, but perhaps it's a shogi game written in BASIC, rather than a BASIC version itself. I see now that the graphic looks like shogi. The cassette tapes should be pretty easy to back up.
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/14/10 10:28 PM

I also have a Cassette Vision cart, Battlevader. I'm unable to dump it though as it uses some custom chip.

Two of the Casio Loopy carts in your image have also been dumped, the one with the red border around the cover sticker is needed however, great haul! On the BIOs side, I sent a Casio Loopy system to the Guru a while back for decapping and have a spare if needed. I doubt it's a very high priority for decapping though smile

On another note an anonymous dumper recently mailed me 3 more Pyuta cart dumps, so I will add those to the xml softlist as soon as I get some free time.
Posted By: Kale

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/15/10 12:10 AM

Originally Posted By ranger_lennier
The Pasopia 7 tape says "T-BASIC 7" on the label, but perhaps it's a shogi game written in BASIC, rather than a BASIC version itself. I see now that the graphic looks like shogi. The cassette tapes should be pretty easy to back up.


Ok, so it's a real game running on T-BASIC 7 (that is the internal Pasopia 7 "OS"), good catch. smile
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/15/10 03:06 PM

What type of ROMs do the Loopy carts use?
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/15/10 03:18 PM



Surface mounted flash, I sent mine off to the Guru as I don't have the right adaptors or a decent way to desolder them.
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/15/10 05:04 PM

MAMEItalia can handle common SMTs now too, as long as you don't need them put back together smile
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/15/10 05:48 PM

I've made recordings of the two cassette tapes. The Koei tape had data on both sides. The shogi game just had data on one. The waveforms look pretty clean to me, so hopefully they're still good.

I'm going to PM Kale with a link to the recordings, plus scans of the tapes and related material (the shogi game also had a tape cover and instructions).
Posted By: Anna Wu

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/16/10 10:03 AM

Originally Posted By ranger_lennier
I've made recordings of the two cassette tapes. The Koei tape had data on both sides. The shogi game just had data on one. The waveforms look pretty clean to me, so hopefully they're still good.

I'm going to PM Kale with a link to the recordings, plus scans of the tapes and related material (the shogi game also had a tape cover and instructions).


As first, I am absolute not sure, Paul. smile
If the KOI .wav images (PC 6001 MK II) are basic games, maybe they are in wrong .wav format.
I can not convert these .wav images with P6DatRec.
Have a another .wav image (Lode Runner) as reference converted to .P6 which is working fine on some Emulators.
Posted By: Kale

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/16/10 10:39 AM

It's probably because it uses a different wav frequency parameter, that's why you can't convert them with the tool smile
Posted By: Kale

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/16/10 10:52 AM

The Koei game is just "Nobunaga no Yabou", that is already "dumped" in .cas format ... but it's still good to have a dump in raw format smile

http://p6-kei.hp.infoseek.co.jp/043_Koei/Koei.html (sixth entry)
Posted By: Anna Wu

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/16/10 11:23 AM

Originally Posted By Kale
It's probably because it uses a different wav frequency parameter, that's why you can't convert them with the tool smile


The only different is the sampling rate (Audacity).
I tried it with 11025Hz too with the same result.
Posted By: Anna Wu

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/16/10 11:29 AM

Also I tried the Shogi image (Apollo Technica) on Takeda´s emulator which seems to support .wav images.
Unfortunately, it is not working.
I have no other .wav image for this System to make a double check. frown
Posted By: plgDavid

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/16/10 12:39 PM

Hi Anna

Did you try the obvious invert phase trick on the wav file before? Some decoders assume one or the other, and there is no standard on home tape decks for phase that I know. And of course the soundcard might invert it as well.

Vic-20/c64 tape transfers that I make using my pro yamaha deck always need inversion.
Posted By: Anna Wu

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/16/10 04:34 PM

Originally Posted By plgDavid
Hi Anna

Did you try the obvious invert phase trick on the wav file before? Some decoders assume one or the other, and there is no standard on home tape decks for phase that I know. And of course the soundcard might invert it as well.

Vic-20/c64 tape transfers that I make using my pro yamaha deck always need inversion.


I have not enough know-ledge about it, plgDavid.

PASOPIA7
Shogi

Kale, I converted the .wav file with 22050Hz to 11025Hz. Takeda´s emulator can now detect the boot loader.
Need a translation for the Japanese text (3rd screenshot), because I am not able to start the game.






Posted By: Justin

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/17/10 01:31 AM

Originally Posted By Anna Wu
Kale, I converted the .wav file with 22050Hz to 11025Hz. Takeda´s emulator can now detect the boot loader.
Need a translation for the Japanese text (3rd screenshot), because I am not able to start the game.

...




It's a list of the rules of the game, I don't know all the Shogi terminology so I won't attempt a translation. The text at the bottom says "Reading data!!" so I guess it's either hung or you have to wait longer.
Posted By: Anna Wu

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/17/10 06:05 AM

Thank you, Justin. Unfortunately, the loading process stops here.
The reason can be, the .wav format is still wrong, the emulator, a kind of protection or wrong handling.

Here the original instruction.




Posted By: Kale

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/17/10 09:10 AM

I'm fairly sure that is the emulator ... remember that the other two games we currently have are actually patched in software in order to work ...
Posted By: Anna Wu

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/17/10 10:39 AM

Originally Posted By Kale
I'm fairly sure that is the emulator ... remember that the other two games we currently have are actually patched in software in order to work ...


Yes, this can be the reason. smile
Posted By: John Elliott

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/20/10 10:50 PM

Originally Posted By Anna Wu
Exist a good dump of the PCW Boot ROM (pcwboot.bin) ?
Just a question. smile


There does now; I imaged a PCW8512 printer microcontroller this evening. And the keyboard microcontroller as well.

(Those bits of the memory-mapped keyboard from 3FFC-3FFF that 'reflect the above key combinations but in an incomplete way'? They're deliberately generated by the controller as joystick substitutes. One's the numeric pad, one's an inverted T, one maps A-J as up and Z-M as down, and so on).
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/22/10 06:33 PM

Originally Posted By incog


Two of the Casio Loopy carts in your image have also been dumped, the one with the red border around the cover sticker is needed however, great haul!


What's the name of this one? I'll add it to my list on the Wiki.

(Picture at http://flic.kr/p/8sh3eS )
Posted By: Justin

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/22/10 07:10 PM

Originally Posted By ranger_lennier
Originally Posted By incog


Two of the Casio Loopy carts in your image have also been dumped, the one with the red border around the cover sticker is needed however, great haul!


What's the name of this one? I'll add it to my list on the Wiki.

(Picture at http://flic.kr/p/8sh3eS )


Loopy Town no O-heya ga Hoshii!
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/23/10 03:18 AM

Thanks. I've updated the list. Some of them I'm working on getting dumped. Others I'm basically just holding onto in case someone figures out what to do with them.

http://mess.redump.net/dumping:have#in_ranger_lenniers_s_possession
Posted By: mahlemiut

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/28/10 12:05 AM

Originally Posted By John Elliott
There does now; I imaged a PCW8512 printer microcontroller this evening. And the keyboard microcontroller as well.


Ok, I'm trying to find a decent way to implement the PCW boot process, where the printer MCU sends the code and data fetches to the Z80 data bus.

I'd figure a DIRECT_UPDATE_HANDLER would be the way to go, but I'm not entirely sure how to properly control the Z80 while this occurs. The MCU will wait until the data bus is read before it continues, but the Z80 has to be halted (/WAIT is held) for a bit of time until the next byte is fetched from the data bus.

Anyone got any bright ideas or examples on how it should be handled (using a timer is difficult in a DIRECT_UPDATE_HANDLER when the debugger is active...)?
Posted By: Haze

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/28/10 01:05 AM

sounds like the usual mid-opcode stall problem, for which MAME really has no solution, because you can't pause mid-opcode (an opcode must complete because otherwise your thread just stalls, and that's not good in MAME ;-) By the time you read you're already executing the opcode, by the time you can pause the CPU, it's too late.

MAME/MESS can't handle it, same reason I can't make progress on 32x, the 68k<->SH2 FIFO stuff needs it too.

Posted By: robiza

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/28/10 08:18 AM

for the same reason we can have a perfect c64 emulation
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/11/10 09:23 PM

I've added a few more games I've picked up.

http://mess.redump.net/dumping:have#in_ranger_lenniers_s_possession

Most interesting, probably, is four carts for the Bandai Supervision 8000. I believe this is the first original Japanese console with a CPU. (The Toshiba Visicom Studio II clone was earlier, and there were a number of TTL logic systems.) Does anyone know anything technically about the system? I still don't have a console, and I'm not sure if it had any internal ROM. Here's the best webpage I found on it:

http://www.videogameconsolelibrary.com/pg70-super_vision.htm

It says:

"It was driven by an 8-bit NEC D780C (Z80 clone) processor capable of max 3.58mHz speeds. It also used a General Instruments AY-3-8910 co-processor, which supported 3 sound channels, and two general purpose parallel IO ports that are used for joysticks."

I'm also not sure what sort of ROM is used in the carts, though if no one knows I could always try to open one up.
Posted By: Anna Wu

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/12/10 07:04 AM

Originally Posted By ranger_lennier
I've added a few more games I've picked up.

http://mess.redump.net/dumping:have#in_ranger_lenniers_s_possession

Most interesting, probably, is four carts for the Bandai Supervision 8000. I believe this is the first original Japanese console with a CPU. (The Toshiba Visicom Studio II clone was earlier, and there were a number of TTL logic systems.) Does anyone know anything technically about the system? I still don't have a console, and I'm not sure if it had any internal ROM. Here's the best webpage I found on it:

http://www.videogameconsolelibrary.com/pg70-super_vision.htm

It says:

"It was driven by an 8-bit NEC D780C (Z80 clone) processor capable of max 3.58mHz speeds. It also used a General Instruments AY-3-8910 co-processor, which supported 3 sound channels, and two general purpose parallel IO ports that are used for joysticks."

I'm also not sure what sort of ROM is used in the carts, though if no one knows I could always try to open one up.


Quote:
However it is our theory that Mattel duplicated the design of Bandai´s controllers.


smile
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/12/10 12:03 PM

That's an unlikely theory considering the Intellivision was designed in 1978 and in test markets several months before the Bandai machine's release.

Then again, these people repeatedly claim the AY is a "co-processor" which is nonsense on stilts.
Posted By: 342234

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 02/13/11 05:17 PM

After PC-8801FH, the additional ROM hadn't not dumped yet.
The additional ROM is so called BIOS setup menu just like PC's BIOS.
Total main ROM must be 128KB (Except Kanji Font / Jisyo ROM)

PC-8801FH
PC-8801MH
PC-8801FA
PC-8801MA
PC-8801FE
PC-8801FE2
PC-8801MA2
PC-8801MC
PC-98DO
PC-98DO+

BIOS Setup menu is intergrated on ROM (32KB)
Main Clock can be changed 4MHz <--> 8MHz via BIOS Menu.

So these machines must be re-dumped!
Posted By: 342234

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 02/13/11 05:24 PM

>I also have a Cassette Vision cart, Battlevader. I'm unable to dump it though as it uses some custom chip.

I think CPU is integrated on Rom Pack with CPU + ROM.
It will be able to be dumped with ROM Writer/Reader.
Posted By: Lord Nightmare

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 02/13/11 05:26 PM

IIRC there's just one chip on the cart, which contains rom/ram/cpu iirc; its a primitive mcu, probably a 4-bit one, or a very early 8 bit.

LN
Posted By: Naoki

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 02/14/11 12:31 AM

Hey guys, I was reading the console list and I have like 3 dead PS2's if you still need BIOS dumps. Atleast two are SCPH-3003 Rs, possibly all three. I also have a 39003 one, which fully works. The other three are just sat collecting dust, so if you need them just ask. smile
Posted By: Kale

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 02/14/11 08:11 PM

Originally Posted By fs5500
After PC-8801FH, the additional ROM hadn't not dumped yet.
The additional ROM is so called BIOS setup menu just like PC's BIOS.
Total main ROM must be 128KB (Except Kanji Font / Jisyo ROM)

PC-8801FH
PC-8801MH
PC-8801FA
PC-8801MA
PC-8801FE
PC-8801FE2
PC-8801MA2
PC-8801MC
PC-98DO
PC-98DO+

BIOS Setup menu is intergrated on ROM (32KB)
Main Clock can be changed 4MHz <--> 8MHz via BIOS Menu.

So these machines must be re-dumped!


Makes sense, considering that current BIOS never checks if a CD is inserted in the disc tray and afaik it should play audio CDs just like PC Engine (CD-Rom attachment is installable on PCE too).
Posted By: Anna Wu

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 07/26/12 01:01 PM

Originally Posted By Anna Wu
Originally Posted By Kale
It's probably because it uses a different wav frequency parameter, that's why you can't convert them with the tool smile


The only different is the sampling rate (Audacity).
I tried it with 11025Hz too with the same result.


I´m able now to convert the .wav into .p6 format.
Bit rate from 16 to 8 changed.
Posted By: John Elliott

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 04/19/13 06:16 PM

Getting on for four years ago, I wrote:

Originally Posted By John Elliott
pc200 and pc20 seem to be using the same ROM images ('pc20v2.0' / 'pc20v2.1'). This matches my PC200 (with BIOS 1.5) but did the PC20 really use the same ROM? I'd have thought at the very least the copyright message would read 'Amstrad' rather than 'Sinclair'.


I've recently been in contact with the owner of a PC20, who obligingly dumped the BIOS ROM. It's byte-for-byte identical to the later PC200 BIOS (v1.5), right-down to the 'Sinclair PC200' in the sign-on message. So yes, it does seem that pc20 and pc200 use the same BIOS, and the only difference is that the PC20 lacks the PC200's TV modulator.
Posted By: geezup

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 05/18/13 11:19 PM

Hello there!

AFAIK I have several undumped Mega Duck/Cougar Boy carts, and i would love to dump them. Does anyone know the cart pinout ?? I haven't been able to find any information about these carts... :\

Thanks!!
Posted By: Lord Nightmare

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 05/19/13 02:32 AM

geezup: we are very interested! If you are able to lend us carts for dumping, someone might be able to help. We don't know the pinout right now as far as I know, but I'm asking around.

LN
Posted By: geezup

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 05/19/13 06:48 AM

Hey LN, thanks for the quick reply.

Yes, keep me updated please. I asked here cause it is emulated in MESS, so i guessed the pinout must be known by someone here smile

These ones are covered by an epoxy glob as seen in the picture, and would hate to get them damaged (not my picture, found it googling some time ago, but can't find the link anymore)



I guess I should be able to dump them myself and have some dupes to try it out, so sending them will be the last option since they are part of my collection and hard to get (not discarded tho) :\

Cheers
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/01/13 06:16 AM

I also have some undumped Mega Duck carts--Trap & Turn, 2nd Space, Bomb Disposer, Magic Maze, Vex, Data Bank, and Bilder-Lexikon. I'd be interested in hearing if you figure out how to dump these.
Posted By: Anna Wu

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/01/13 06:45 AM

If someone is interested to add new driver to the NEC PC-98xx range, I have some ROM dumps:

PC-9801 BX2/U2
PC-9821 CX2
PC-9821 Nr12
PC-9821 Lavie Nr12
PC-9821 Nr300




Posted By: etabeta78

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/01/13 09:02 AM

well, for sure both me and Micko would be interested into adding the dumps to MESS

as for improving emulation, I fear that we have to wait for Kale's return...
Posted By: Micko

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/01/13 05:24 PM

yap, AW you know the drill smile
Posted By: Kale

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/02/13 07:48 PM

Originally Posted By etabeta78
well, for sure both me and Micko would be interested into adding the dumps to MESS

as for improving emulation, I fear that we have to wait for Kale's return...


By checking the screenshot it looks like that they are extracted rather than dumped. Which is annoying and not really interesting to look at.

Improving emulation ... it's all down into supporting SASI/SCSI/IDE protocols, on which I'm not well versed into anyway. Obviously later games like Policenauts requires CD-ROM support + PC-9821 so starting from that would be a good starting point even if the performance on later machines is pretty dire.

EGC is quite annoying too, it's a kind of RMW video blitter and last time I've looked at PC-98xx emu source codes my head spinned badly (doesn't help that they optimize it up to the wazoo). Uno uses it (a doujinshi game based off the popular card game), presumably most PC-9821 games uses it too once that somebody manages to make them to boot.

Software list is another thing that needs to be done, not an easy task considering the huge list of confirmed dumps that floats around the net. Most floppy formats aren't supported, and some games still won't boot due of upd765 bug(s), a similar situation with PC-88xx where JP devs really pushes the chip to do annoying stuff for exotic copy protection forms. Would also be good enough if people really starts to test most important SWs on it, my motivation on it died after the 176th H JP Graphic Novel game where nobody actually gives a damn in these days.

Keyboard needs proper i8251 support and decapping of the MCU inside it.

Finally several ports are actually undocumented and some behaviour doesn't convince me at all (like the POR/gate A20 handling), would be rather fun if somebody actually starts into doing HW tests on a real machine.
Posted By: Anna Wu

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/03/13 07:03 AM

Quote:
By checking the screenshot it looks like that they are extracted rather than dumped. Which is annoying and not really interesting to look at.


Ok, so I´ll keep the dumps for my self.
All ROMs (except the PC-9821 Lavie Nr12 ones) are dumped (32kb banks) by using the GETITF98* tool.

* Your broswer should support the EUC-JP encoding to display the characters on the page.
Posted By: geezup

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 06/14/13 11:47 PM

Hi again.

Apart from the Megaduck pinout, now i need the Hartung Game Master pinout. I have a couple undumped carts... but can't figure it out :\

Any help ??

Thanks!
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/02/13 03:59 AM

It's been awhile since I've managed to get any carts of mine dumped, so I'm happy to report that Charles MacDonald completed his RCA Studio II dumper and was able to dump all of the MPT-02 carts I sent him. The MPT-02 is a color clone of the RCA Studio II. Several variations were released in Europe and Australia. I have been making arrangements to get the carts and systems I loaned out to Guru back in the USA and send them to Charles, but that may take a few months. The Visicom cart I send has some differences and hasn't been dumped yet. This should happen at some point, though.

All the dumps which had already been dumped for some system were identical. The identical dumps are the old Math Fun dump labeled as coming from the Victory, and my Math Fun which based on the instructions would seem to be the French release. Then there were MPT-02 versions of Speedway, Biorhythm, and Gunfighter/ Moonship Battle, which I believe were previously dumped from the USA Studio II. Charles had also previously matched the old Tennis dump with the dump of a US cart I sent him. Can anyone confirm that all of those old dumps were from USA Studio II carts? If we want to be extra thorough, I do have all the US carts either here or with Guru.

I tried testing the new dumps in both MESS and Emma 02. The results were pretty much the same, except that I think Emma 02 matches the colors better. Neither emulator supports the plain binary dumps at the moment, so I had to add a header to put them in .st2 format, I don't think there's any way to load Grand Pack as two ROM files without changes to the emulators, so I haven't tested that one. I don't know of any other cart quite like it. Of the others, Bingo and Concentration Match appear to work fine. They'll play in color on the MPT-02, or in black and white on the Studio II. I couldn't get Pinball or Star Wars to work. It's probably an issue with the emulators, since previously no games released only for the MPT-02 family have been available.
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/03/13 08:14 PM

We're trying to figure out if the dump for the Baseball / Sumo Wrestling cart for the Toshiba Visicom is good. I think there are instructions on the back of the cart. Is anyone able to translate the Japanese?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/53002952@N03/9431791382/
Posted By: Octocontrabass

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/03/13 09:38 PM

I am somewhat able. I've probably made some mistakes, but this should be good enough to make sure the game is playable all the way through.


Baseball (for two players)
1. Press clear, then press the 0 key on controller A (left).
2. Player A (left) goes to bat first. The 5 key is to swing.
3. Player B (right) pitches. The 2 key is an inside corner curveball. The 5 key is a straight ball. The 8 key is an outside corner curveball. If you hold the key you can throw a slowball.
4. When player B is catching a batted ball, use the 2 key to move up and the 8 key to move down.
5. After 3 outs, players change sides.

Sumo Wrestling (for two players)
1. Press clear, then press the 5 key on controller A, and press the 0 key on both controllers to do the initial charge.
2. The left wrestler (A) uses the 6 key to push, the 5 key to throw, and the 4 key to pull. The right wrestler (B) uses the 4 key to push, the 5 key to throw, and the 6 key to pull.
3. When the match is complete, the winner will be indicated, both players will press the 0 key, and the game will continue for 15 matches.

Note: For more information on how to play the game, please read the manual.
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/03/13 10:05 PM

Thanks! That sounds about right. Too bad I don't have the manual, though.
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/07/13 04:18 AM

We've finally got a Toshiba Visicom game dumped correctly--the very Japanese CAS-130 Sports Fan (Baseball & Sumo Wrestling). Thanks to Charles MacDonald and Marcel van Tongeren for figuring out how to do it. I'm not sure if they needed to consult anyone else.

Probably the only Studio II-family cart of mind that's still undumped is Fun With Numbers, which we'll need to get back from Guru first. I also have several carts from different territories, but I haven't yet found a difference between the Studio II and MPT-02 carts.
Posted By: seanriddle

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/12/13 09:12 AM

geezup- Ranger_Lannier sent me a few Mega Duck / Cougar Boy carts and I figured out the pinout. I dumped all the carts he sent me except for Lerncomputer carts Bilder-Lexikon and Data Bank. Here's some info: http://seanriddle.com/megaduck.html
Sean
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/14/13 04:24 AM

Thanks, Sean. FYI, the new dumps are Trap & Turn, 2nd Space, Bomb Disposer, Magic Maze, and Vex. Actually, I guess these had been dumped before, but weren't actually available. (Lost? Hoarded? I'm not sure.) Sean's dumps do match the reported checksums, though.

Sean also dumped both a Mega Duck and Cougar Boy version of Armour Force, and the dumps were identical. I don't know if anyone had checked for regional differences before.
Posted By: judge

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/14/13 06:01 AM

They were hoarded, so I at least documented the CRCs I heard of.
Posted By: geezup

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/14/13 07:44 AM

Hey there.

Fantastic work Sean. I'll be contacting you with a few doubts tho, but i want to re-read carefully your info first. Hope i can do it along the day.

ranger_lennier, thanks for your help too ! smile

Tahnk you.
Posted By: Anna Wu

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/14/13 08:18 AM

The new Mega Duck dumps to the softlist added. smile
Posted By: ssj

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/16/13 02:00 AM

So many great news in the last few days! Thanks guys.
I hope geezup might have some of the missing Mega Duck carts, would be nice to have a full set done.

Regarding Fun with Numbers, there's one right now for sale at ebay at 11.99 USD and free shipping, I can donate this amount for someone in the US that can get it dumped. I actually thought this would be the first one to be dumped and not all the rare MPT-02 exclusives smile
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/16/13 02:13 AM

Thanks for the offer. I own a Fun With Numbers cart, but Guru has it at the moment. I was planning on getting it dumped once I could get it back in the USA, which may be a few months. But yeah, kind of strange that one's still undumped when it's not particularly rare or valuable. If you do want to go ahead and donate for it, contact Charles MacDonald. He's the one who can actually dump them.

http://cgfm2.emuviews.com/contact.php
Posted By: ssj

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/16/13 05:31 AM

Thanks, I'll do that.
Now if only he could get access to all the Visicom exclusives that would be sweet.
Posted By: FCLover

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/18/13 01:20 AM

Hello, I am new to the site, and have read through about 60 pages of this topic and have noticed nothing of V.Smile stuff. I noticed MESS emulates (however it is currently not working) the German V.Smile. Would anyone here be interested in the V.Smile Baby? I have one console and a Learn & Discover home cartridge up for donation to dump. I also saw that no one mentioned the Buzztime Home Trivia System. I am looking for a spare console, but I have a game to donate to dump. It is a History Trivia cartridge, if anyone is interested.
Posted By: Robbbert

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/18/13 05:29 AM

Yes please we are always interested. smile

In some cases it might not get emulated immediately, but at least having dumps means it will get done eventually.
Posted By: FCLover

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/18/13 05:00 PM

Are you interested in the V.Smile Baby and game AND the history cartridge, or just one or the other? Also, what is going on with the Socrates?
Posted By: Lord Nightmare

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/18/13 05:30 PM

socrates needs a little more work (and needs the speech chip type to be figured out); I also need to dump the German Speech cart from team europe (which keeps getting put aside for other reasons, I need to get the tools out and just do it already)

LN
Posted By: FCLover

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/18/13 05:38 PM

Is there a way to contact Team Europe? I cannot find a contact info page on their blog. Also I would love to see the Socrates emulated.
Posted By: Lord Nightmare

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/18/13 06:35 PM

Well, it is sort of emulated in that it runs right now, and if you don't include the speech roms in socrates.zip you can play it 'fully' with no speech and normal sound.
It does sometimes randomly crash though due to the very hacky way that waitstates are simulated (by slowing down the cpu).

In reality the socrates has an absolutely obscene number of waitstates when accessing its vram/system ram due to vtech's very poor implementation of shared ram for vram and work ram, and dram refresh, in the socrates hardware. ROM and Cart access has fewer waitstates iirc.

LN
Posted By: FCLover

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/18/13 07:26 PM

I have heard a lot of this "Guru". Is he able to dump V.Smile stuff? As posted earlier, I have a V.Smile baby & a cartridge. But I also just found a V.Smile Motion cart. I do not own a motion, but based on research & messing around, V.Smile Motion carts have the same amount of pins as & regular V.Smile.
Posted By: TeamE

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/20/13 08:00 PM

V.Smile Baby, V.Smile and V.Smile Motion all use the same cartridge-type, so you can dump all cartridges the same way.

one german V.Smile Baby cartridge is already dumped and should be included in MESS since the other german dumps got released(included).

btw. nearly anyone can dump the V.Smile stuff. one of the cheapest ways to get the cartridges dumped would be a retrode and a selfmade adapter... http://www.retrode.org/2013/07/v-smile/
Posted By: FCLover

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/21/13 02:02 AM

Hey, TeamE, Have you made a V.Smile adapter? If so, what is the wattage of the 10k resistors?


Also, didn't notice until you mentioned that the V.Smile, Baby, & motion have the same amount of pins! Also, since the V.Smile Pocket can play V.Smile games, would a cartridge slot from a V.Smile pocket work for the homemade adapter?
Posted By: robcfg

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/21/13 09:05 AM

If you can get a 50-pin female edge connector, like the one used for the Amstrad CPC expansion port, you don't need to destroy a VSmile Pocket wink
Posted By: FCLover

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 08/21/13 03:21 PM

There is a broken V.Smile Pocket on eBay, that's why I asked
Posted By: Rayman

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/19/13 04:36 PM

http://mess.org/dumping/have
Just a small question... This page pages up to date?


There's a lot of interesting things there...
I can't wait to see them in MESS project
Posted By: Shideravan

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/20/13 04:14 PM

Originally Posted By Rayman
http://mess.org/dumping/have
Just a small question... This page pages up to date?


There's a lot of interesting things there...
I can't wait to see them in MESS project

You're right!
"There's a lot of interesting things there", and so long that's a Wiki, I think that it's up to date...But I could be wrong...
But to that become a driver, will be a different story...
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 09/22/13 03:17 AM

I've updated my list periodically. Of course, just because I have it, doesn't mean anyone knows how to dump it. But there has been regular progress, such as recent dumping of Mega Duck and MPT-02 carts.
Posted By: Anna Wu

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/11/13 06:24 PM

Any progress with the V.Smile (vsmile driver) emulation?
Posted By: Barry Nelson

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/14/13 09:15 PM

I have a few optional ROM images for the Tandy Color Computer 1, 2 and 3 and one special ROM image designed by Robert Gault specifically for the Tandy HD emulation in mess. How I go about submittig these for inclusion as optional ROMs?

They include:
ADOS for the CoCo 1/2
ADOS for the CoCo 3
RGB DOS (Robert Gault custom version)

I also have a servant ROM for the C128.

Also, since it was a fairly common practice back in the day when the CoCo was still in production (at least I know a few people who did this) to burn custom disk controller roms for that system, is it possible to design an easy way to mount such custom ROMs in place of the standard one without having to extract the rom zip file and having the annoying CRC invalid warning? Maybe a switch like -replacerom chipid newfilepath
??
Posted By: Jarvik7

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/15/13 04:53 AM

I also have a very large amount of COCO3 software on disk.
My father's friend was pretty active in the COCO3 scene back in the day and as a result I have several thousand bootleg (and some original) 5.25" disks sitting in storage, most of which are likely undumped at present and I may very well have the only remaining copies.

Is there a reasonable USB solution to dumping these with a Mac?

The best I've seen through some light googling is to use a real COCO3 running drivewire (loaded over audio cable) connected over RS232 /w a USB adapter.

I'd rather not have to pull out all the retro hardware out of storage and drag it all to Japan in addition to the disks (apartments here are small). Is there a USB 5.25" drive out there that can read COCO3 disks?

Alternatively (preferably?), if there is anyone in Japan with the capability to dump them I'd be happy to loan them.

I also have a near full set of Rainbow Magazine that I'd like to see scanned someday..
Posted By: Barry Nelson

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/15/13 05:52 AM

This is a ROM dumping thread, but, that said…
The only possibility I have found using a USB floppy device is this:
DiscFerret http://www.discferret.com/wiki/DiscFerret
It does not seem to be in full production. There also does not appear to be any software yet for reading CoCo disks. If you have a few specific titles or disks that you are trying to read, you could send me a message. I am not in Japan, but I do have a CoCo 1 and a CoCo 3, a drive wire cable and server, and a hardware floppy emulator that communicates over serial. I can can read single sided or doubled sided disks although I may have issues with some types of copy protection I have been largely successful at reading most disks. I also have ways to read and image Apple II, C64, C128, TI99/4A and Amiga disks.
Posted By: Jarvik7

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/15/13 06:56 AM

At this point there is nothing in particular that I need dumped as most of the big-name software is already out there and I don't even really know what all I have, as most of the disks are all just labeled with numbers that can be looked up in a set of binders that form their index. I'm more just interested in it from a preservation aspect rather than nostalgia for something specific.

I suppose a first step would be running those index binders through a sheet-fed scanner and doing some OCR.
Posted By: Darkstar

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/15/13 10:36 AM

You should be able to dump the disks on a standard 5,25" disk drive (HD) with the Kryoflux board http://www.kryoflux.com. It's about 85€ and dumps to raw streams and many disk formats. I don't know if it supports COCO out of the box, but if you ask on the forum and provide some raw dumps they will probably implement support for it if it doesn't.

The hardware and dumping tool is closed-source though, but as soon as you have the raw stream files you have everything you need for preservation of the floppies
Posted By: robcfg

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/15/13 10:42 AM

Hi Jarvik,

As you know, usb floppy drives are useless for preserving disks, so you'll have to go for a special controller like KryoFlux.

If you could have access to a standard PC with a floppy drive, then you could use CoCoDisk.
Posted By: Darkstar

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/15/13 11:48 AM

If there's a program to read CoCo disks on a standard PC floppy controller then it's pretty safe to assume that they can be correctly dumped + converted to IMG by KryoFlux as it uses the standard MFM format
Posted By: Barry Nelson

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/15/13 10:16 PM

Originally Posted By robcfg
As you know, usb floppy drives are useless for preserving disks


Thats where it looks like eventually this DiscFerret device may help. But it's not quite all there yet. Soon maybe. It has it's own USB floppy controller into which you plug a floppy drive with a 34pin cable.
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/16/13 12:29 AM

Originally Posted By Barry Nelson
This is a ROM dumping thread, but, that said…


I wouldn't interpret "Dumping Project" too literally. The name comes from the MAME Dumping Project, which preserves arcade games stored in a number of formats, including ROM chips, CDs, and hard drives. So I'd say any software MESS could potentially emulate is fair game.
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/16/13 12:36 AM

Does anyone have experience using Kyroflux or DiscFerret? I'm curious about what type of disks people have tried on them, and how well they've worked.
Posted By: JonasP

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/16/13 09:09 AM

Originally Posted By ranger_lennier
Does anyone have experience using Kyroflux or DiscFerret? I'm curious about what type of disks people have tried on them, and how well they've worked.


Kryoflux works excellent for me on 8", several formats. You need an extra adapter for that though. 5.25 and 3.5 should work fine.
Posted By: robcfg

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/16/13 11:00 AM

Kryoflux is easy to use, I have one and i'm quite happy.

The only problem is that converting stream files to ipf format is still not automatic.

That said, why not use stream files right away?

I'm taking a look at DiscFerret too, but seems that it's a bit green on the software side.

Jonas, can you tell me a bit more on the 8" adapter? I have one 8" drive I'd like to try, and if it could be used for preservation, much better!
Posted By: Darkstar

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/16/13 11:50 AM

I also have a KryoFlux and it works very well. If you don't need IPF from your dumps instantly, it's okay. It'll probably not take much longer until emulators (and MESS?) support the stream files natively, or until an open source IPF converter shows up (see https://github.com/keirf/Disk-Utilities)

Regarding the 8" drives, the KryoFlux community seems to be using the one from dbit.com (see http://forum.kryoflux.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=689 for a discussion) with some success...
Posted By: JonasP

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/16/13 02:30 PM

Yep, that's the one I've been using.
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/17/13 07:23 PM

Thanks for the reviews. Has anyone tried disks for the Apple II family of computers? IIRC, at one point these weren't supported because they used a unique format. From the Kyroflux website, it sounds like they are supported now, though.

I also remember that people were excited for Kyroflux because it might be able to recover data from disks that were too degraded to work in the original hardware. Has anyone tried this?
Posted By: Darkstar

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/17/13 10:36 PM

This is from the dtc.exe command line

Code:
Image types supported:
 0 : KryoFlux stream files, preservation
 0a: KryoFlux stream files, format guided
 2 : CT Raw image, 84 tracks, DS, DD, 300, MFM
 3 : FM sector image, 40/80+ tracks, SS/DS, SD/DD, 300, FM
 3a: FM XFD, Atari 8-bit
 4 : MFM sector image, 40/80+ tracks, SS/DS, DD/HD, 300, MFM
 4a: MFM XFD, Atari 8-bit
 5 : AmigaDOS sector image, 80+ tracks, DS, DD/HD, 300, MFM
 6 : CBM DOS sector image, 35+ tracks, SS, DD, 300, GCR
 6a: CBM DOS sector image with error map
 7 : Apple DOS 3.2 sector image, 35+ tracks, SS, DD, 300, GCR
 8 : Apple DOS 3.3+ sector image, 35+ tracks, SS, DD, 300, GCR
 8a: DSK, DOS 3.3 interleave
 9 : Apple DOS 400K/800K sector image, 80+ tracks, SS/DS, DD, CLV, GCR
10 : Emu sector image, 35+ tracks, SS, DD, 300, FM
11 : Emu II sector image, 80+ tracks, DS, DD, 300, FM
12 : Amiga DiskSpare sector image, 80+ tracks, DS, DD/HD, 300, MFM
13 : DEC RX01 sector image, 77+ tracks, SS, SD, 360, FM
14 : DEC RX02 sector image, 77+ tracks, SS, SD/DD, 360, FM/DMMFM
15 : CBM MicroProse sector image, 35+ tracks, SS, DD, 300, GCR
16 : CBM RapidLok sector image, 35+ tracks, SS, DD, 300, GCR
17 : CBM Datasoft sector image, 35+ tracks, SS, DD, 300, GCR
18 : CBM Vorpal sector image, 35+ tracks, SS, DD, 300, GCR
19 : CBM V-MAX! sector image, 35+ tracks, SS, DD, 300, GCR
20 : CBM Teque sector image, 35+ tracks, SS, DD, 300, GCR
21 : CBM TDP sector image, 35+ tracks, SS, DD, 300, GCR
22 : CBM GCR image, SS, DD, 300, GCR
22a: CBM GCR image with mastering info, SS, DD, 300, GCR
23 : CBM Big Five sector image, 35+ tracks, SS, DD, 300, GCR
24 : CBM DOS extended sector image, 35+ tracks, SS, DD, 300, GCR
25 : CBM OziSoft sector image, 35+ tracks, SS, DD, 300, GCR


so it looks like various Apple sector images are supported now (I don't have an Apple to test)
Posted By: Justin

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/18/13 12:54 AM

Apple II is supported but in my experience it doesn't work very well, nonprotected disks that read fine on my //c come up as full of bad sectors with the Kryoflux. It may be down to the drive I am using although it works fine with PC disks. I haven't tried recently though so they may have fixed it in software.

There is also the issue that stock PC floppy drives can't read the reverse side of Apple II disks unless you make some physical modifications to the drive.
Posted By: robcfg

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/18/13 09:47 AM

In my experience, what the Kryoflux dtc does not do is guessing the format.

You'll have to carefully specify the parameters so it understands the disc right.

The good thing about it is that you can create new configurations for new type of disks and save them in any of the file formats it supports.
Posted By: Darkstar

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/18/13 11:34 AM

The flippy disk thing is really annoying because you have to either physically modify the drive (and only some drives are compatible with that modification) or remove the disk from it's plastic sleeve and turn it around (which destroys the original sleeve in the process)

If you're getting only bad sectors you probably have to specify the RPM, since DD drives spin at 300 RPM and HD drives at 360 (or the other way round?), the same applies when dumping PC DD floppies as well.
Posted By: Barry Nelson

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/18/13 08:28 PM

Originally Posted By Darkstar
The flippy disk thing is really annoying because you have to either physically modify the drive (and only some drives are compatible with that modification) or remove the disk from it's plastic sleeve and turn it around (which destroys the original sleeve in the process)


A third option is to carefully punch a second index hole in the disk jacket. Hey I didn't say it was the ideal third option did I?
Posted By: Sune

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/18/13 10:17 PM

I had a special tool for that purpose back in the C64 days, we called it a "Disk Doubler".
Posted By: Matty

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/18/13 10:54 PM

that's the lock hole - index hole punching is a lot harder to do
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/19/13 02:47 AM

I thought index hole punching was only necessary for hard-sectored disks, which basically none are?
Posted By: Justin

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/19/13 02:53 AM

No, if you put an Apple II disk into a PC drive upside down, the index hole is on the wrong side so the drive firmware is convinced the disk isn't spinning and refuses to read anything, no matter what you do on the controller side. The Apple II apparently doesn't use the index hole.

Hard-sectored disks also don't work right with Kryoflux but for the opposite reason, the PC drive thinks the disk is going at a kajillion RPM because there are 16 (or whatever) holes per rotation instead of one.

Re: dtc suggestions, it's not something obvious and dumb like the format or RPM, some disks would read OK, but many not, with the same settings.
Posted By: Lord Nightmare

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/19/13 07:14 AM

Balrog and I modded a TEAC FD55 drive to add a second index sensor on the opposite side, so it can properly read flippy disks with no* issues at all.

* If you put a disk which DOES have two jacket index aperture holes in the drive, it gets confused as it sees two index pulses per revolution instead of one. This is fixable by adding switch to the second index sensor to be able to disconnect it in that particular case, and planned for future drive mods.

LN
Posted By: Curt Coder

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/19/13 07:23 AM

I have a KryoFlux, a flippy-modded Panasonic JU 475 and a Commodore SFD-1001, so I can basically read any 5.25" floppy including the 100TPI Commodore disks.
Posted By: incog

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/19/13 12:07 PM

Justin's Apple II comment just reminded me of the easter egg in karateka.

"An Easter egg is present on the Apple II floppy disk release; though claimed to be sold as a single-sided disk, the reverse side of the disk included a full version of the game that would be rendered upside-down on the player's monitor. According to Mechner, this was done as a joke, causing naive users to call tech support and ask why the game was upside-down. Invariably, those users would receive the reply, "take the disk out, insert it right-side up, and reboot"."
Posted By: Barry Nelson

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/19/13 03:23 PM

A Karateka remake is in the works...

What it won’t feature are some of the notorious funny (or devastating, depending on your point of view) moments from the original game — what Mechner calls the “sudden-death shockers” like falling off the cliff if you press the wrong direction at the beginning of the game, or Princess Mariko killing you if you dare to approach her royal highness in a fighting stance.
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/19/13 03:57 PM

The Karateka remake is already out. The reviews were not kind.
Posted By: Anna Wu

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/19/13 05:31 PM

Mr SID´s remake of Mechner´s PoP for the C64 is much better. smile
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/20/13 05:43 AM

Originally Posted By Lord Nightmare
Balrog and I modded a TEAC FD55 drive to add a second index sensor on the opposite side, so it can properly read flippy disks with no* issues at all.

LN


Hmmm, Kyroflux's Apple support sounds a little more complicated than I'd anticipated.

With the modded drive, do you have everything required to read all of my Apple disks?
Posted By: Lord Nightmare

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/20/13 08:09 AM

In theory, yes, but in practice, I'd like to mod a different drive first to be sure I'm getting good reads (I had some alignment issues show up later with the first modded drive, totally unrelated to the modding). Also, I want to verify each disk after reading, and am still working with Balrog on upgrading keirf's Disk-utilities package (https://github.com/keirf/Disk-Utilities ) to parse and verify standard apple 16-sector disk images.
For disks with copy protection or custom headers (the Oregon Trail disk you sent is like this, it is a later copy-protected release), extra work needs to be done to be sure the non-standard-format sectors are good, and that any copy-protection still passes even in the imaged copy.

In short, AppleII disks are just plain *hard* to archive, if you want to do it 100% correctly. I intend to do things the right way.

LN
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/20/13 08:59 AM

Yeah, I'd hate for you to spend all this time on the disks just to have to do them again later because of problems with copy protection, etc. It's good to hear things are moving along, though.

Does it seems to be able to read the disks OK, or are some of them too degraded to read even with the Kyroflux? I don't have a working Apple II anymore, so I didn't test any of them before sending them to you.
Posted By: Darkstar

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/20/13 10:52 AM

Well, if you have the stream files around there's no need to re-dump the disks later, you can just apply the new analysis to them and convert them again. This probably doesn't apply when the drive is misaligned though

(although I'm curious how much that really matters, since you dump the disks with 80 tracks anyway, and if the original had only 40 tracks you could probably algorithmically fix the misalignment through some clever analysis on neighboring tracks)
Posted By: Lord Nightmare

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 11/20/13 07:02 PM

Darkstar: I wish that was the case, but it isn't: on an 80 track drive, even track reads are approximately at the center of the 40 track tracks, and odd track reads are somewhere in between tracks and almost always produce useless garbage.
This also doesn't work for quarter-track stepping (like the uncracked original version of Karateka used) and other copy protection tricks that were possible on the appleII, you would need a 160 track drive to properly center on every one of those!

I have such a drive, a really strange 5.25 drive. It doesn't have an index sensor, though, so i have to manually combine/align reads from that with another drive. Or possibly modify it with a small magnet/reed switch or IR LED to add my own index sensor.

LN
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/01/13 02:49 AM

Charles MacDonald recently dumped four carts of mine for the Nichibutsu My Vision. This system was released in 1983 in Japan only (same year as the Famicom), and focused on various board games. According to my research, at least six games were released for the system--Go, Hanafuda, Reversi, Mastermind, Shimeshougi, and Mahjong.

http://ultimateconsoledatabase.com/classics/my_vision.htm

There seems to be very little information on-line, at least on English language sites. Here's the best page I've found:

http://www.videogameconsolelibrary.com/pg80-my_vision.htm#page=reviews

It mentions a TMS9928A graphics chip, but doesn't know the CPU.

Charles commented, "I don't think the My Vision system has a BIOS, the ROMs have initialization code that seem to indicate the Z80 boots directly from the cartridge. I also see graphics data in the ROM, so I guess the system uploads graphics data to the video chip VRAM."

Another thing to figure out is which game each cart contains. The labels are in Japanese only. Here are the cart labels, named according to the ROM labels, plus an arbitrarily chosen cart number. If anyone can tell me what they translate to, that would be great. I also plan to scan the boxes, instructions, and overlays, but will have to wait until I have access to my main PC.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/53002952@N03/11143587543/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/53002952@N03/11143486264/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/53002952@N03/11143493024/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/53002952@N03/11143410355/
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/01/13 02:54 AM

Z80+9928 in 1983 I'll be shocked if it's not MSX1/ColecoVision-esque. And shocked more if someone doesn't have it running in another 24 hours smile
Posted By: Vas Crabb

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/01/13 04:09 AM

All very predictable Nichibutsu titles wink
my vision gomoku narabe renju
my vision mahjong nichibutsu
my vision hanafuda
my vision tsumeshougi
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/01/13 05:26 AM

Thanks for the translation help.

I'm glad to hear that it will (probably) be easy to emulate, since I've lost a couple of auctions for the system itself, and it's rare to see anything for sale.
Posted By: Vas Crabb

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/01/13 06:26 AM

BTW "shimeshougi" referenced in those sites you linked to is a misreading of "tsumeshougi", due to the visual similarity of katakana tsu and shi characters. Baka gaijin don't realise when their transliteration is meaningless wink
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/01/13 12:12 PM

Haha. That would seem to leave Go, Reversi, and Mastermind still undumped, if the rest of the information is correct. Is the flyer on that page readable? It shows six games, but is pretty low resolution.

http://ultimateconsoledatabase.com/classics/my_vision.htm
Posted By: Shideravan

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/01/13 12:57 PM

There's a japonese website that have (possibly all)box covers for the system:

http://www.game-nostalgia.net/myvision/myvision.html

Unfortunatelly all with low resolution smirk
Posted By: Vas Crabb

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/01/13 01:13 PM

Parts of the flyer are just barely legible. On the left from the top, you have "mahjong", "hana awase (hanafuda)", and "tsumeshougi". On the right from the top you have "renju (gomoku narabe)", "mastermind", and "reversi". The go game is gomoku narabe renju, so we already have that. Of the games on the flyer we just need mastermind and reversi.
Posted By: Vas Crabb

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/01/13 01:14 PM

@shid that's the same six games as on the flyer, of which we have four.
Posted By: Anna Wu

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/01/13 02:21 PM

Thanks ranger_lennier, Charles MacDonald and Vas Crabb, very nice. smile
Posted By: Anna Wu

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/01/13 02:34 PM

The dumps are now on the ftp server (uploads folder).
So the devs can take a look. smile
Posted By: Shideravan

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/01/13 03:05 PM

Originally Posted By Vas Crabb
@shid that's the same six games as on the flyer, of which we have four.


Understood.
I will try to research more about the system.
If I find something useful, I'll post here smile
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/01/13 08:26 PM

Originally Posted By Anna Wu
The dumps are now on the ftp server (uploads folder).
So the devs can take a look. smile


Alright, the 24-hour clock is ticking. grin

I'd say there's a good chance those six carts are all that were released. That's all I've seen mentioned or pictured, and judging by the system's obscurity and rarity, it must have flopped quite badly.
Posted By: judge

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/01/13 08:53 PM

does it have sound? and what were the controls like?
Posted By: Matty

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/01/13 09:54 PM

Controller is a mahjong panel on top of the console's main unit. The buttons usually labelled A-N on an arcade mahjong panel are labelled 1-14. It also has four buttons in a diamond above the numbered buttons labelled A (left), B (up), C (down) and D (right), and an E button to the right of the diamond. Each game came with a control panel overlay showing what the buttons would do. No idea whether it had sound.

The description at Ultimate Console Database shows that the author has no clue about Japanese gaming in the '80s. Nichibutsu was already doing well with arcade mahjong and hanafuda games, so it made sense that they would try bringing them to the home as well. The control scheme makes perfect sense for the kinds of games Nichibutsu sold. It's a hell of a lot easier than trying to play mahjong with a gamepad. The can't really be blamed for releasing it just before the Famicom, as no-one really saw that coming. It's nice to see it being preserved, anyway.
Posted By: judge

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/01/13 10:07 PM



Out of time for today. If someone wants to continue, here's my current code
Posted By: Matty

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/01/13 10:18 PM

Wow, that really was quick. There's precious little information about this beast even in Japanese on the web, besides photos of the system and carts. Can't even find a PCB photo. People do claim it had sound, though. While I was looking, I found an amusing page.
Posted By: Shideravan

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/01/13 10:38 PM

Originally Posted By judge


Out of time for today. If someone wants to continue, here's my current code

Wowwwww laugh
That's.... AWESOME!
Great work everybody that helped with this laugh
One less obscure system to die without being preserved.
That's why this project are awesome!
Posted By: Anna Wu

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/02/13 05:49 AM

Originally Posted By judge


Out of time for today. If someone wants to continue, here's my current code


Can you submit the skeleton driver on the GIT server so we don´t lose your current code? smile
Posted By: Matty

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/02/13 05:57 AM

Everyone who cares already has a copy wink
Posted By: Anna Wu

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/02/13 06:01 AM

Originally Posted By Matty
Everyone who cares already has a copy wink


Maybe
Posted By: judge

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/02/13 07:04 AM

Anna: my code so far is on pastebin, linked in my previous post. Even if my machine blows up the code will not be lost.
Posted By: Vas Crabb

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/02/13 09:13 AM

I'd offer to look for the inputs, but I don't have a ROM, and well, judge is awake again so I may as well let the master continue.
Posted By: judge

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/02/13 10:12 AM

The master is at his day job though, so not working on mess right now wink
Posted By: judge

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/02/13 08:15 PM




I think it uses an AY-3-8910 as sound chip. Using that generates some sound during the title screen for tsumeshougi.

Are they any resources/videos online where the system can be seen or heard? I used complete guesses for the z80 and ay clock inputs.
Posted By: Vas Crabb

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/02/13 08:30 PM

Originally Posted By judge
Are they any resources/videos online where the system can be seen or heard? I used complete guesses for the z80 and ay clock inputs.

There are a few low-quality photos of TVs showing the games floating around, but no videos I can find. I can't even find any Japanese sites listing clock speeds. It's really obscure.
Posted By: judge

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/02/13 08:42 PM

Whee, I can press START smile
Posted By: ssj

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/02/13 09:16 PM

Talk about an obscure system, I couldn't even find a decent quality picture of the console, great to see it running though.
Thanks for the work on this and of course the dumps.
This is why I love MESS to be able to check systems I never even heard of before and that no one else would ever attempt to emulate.
Posted By: Matty

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/02/13 10:06 PM

Originally Posted By judge
Whee, I can press START smile

That's possibly the E button, or maybe 14? Mahjong would be the easiest game to work out which of the numbered buttons is which with, as they would remove the corresponding tile. Maybe shougi or go would use the letter buttons in their directional sense for working that out.

You can find acceptable pictures of it from the outside:
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%95%E3%82%A1%E3%82%A4%E3%83%AB:Nichibutsu_My_Vision.jpg
http://www.tv-gamekan.com/images/myvison.html
http://www.famitsu.com/image/29819/ND3Kozl6wEpsfRyFntE3S34S6Q5vEg3p.html

But no luck looking for a PCB picture.
Posted By: judge

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/02/13 10:20 PM

Yeah, it turns out that button 14 is used for start in most games.
Posted By: judge

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/02/13 10:42 PM

Done, enjoy.
Posted By: Matty

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/03/13 02:33 AM

I realise you've tried to make the button layout kinda match on a QWERTY keyboard, but since it's essentially a mahjong panel, did you consider using MAME's mahjong input types for buttons 1-14? That would map it to the familiar A-N keys that we're used to playing mahjong/hanafuda with, and allow default mahjong input assignments to be used by the console.
Posted By: etabeta78

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/03/13 07:03 AM

Thumbs up to judge for the code, and to everyone else involved in the preservation of this little obscure system!
Posted By: judge

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/03/13 07:43 AM

Originally Posted By Matty
I realise you've tried to make the button layout kinda match on a QWERTY keyboard, but since it's essentially a mahjong panel, did you consider using MAME's mahjong input types for buttons 1-14? That would map it to the familiar A-N keys that we're used to playing mahjong/hanafuda with, and allow default mahjong input assignments to be used by the console.


I was actually considering looking into the mahjong input types last night when I went to bed. Unless someone beats me to it I'll be fixing that tonight; should be a trivial change.
Posted By: Robbbert

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/03/13 08:32 AM

Well done Judge! smile
Posted By: Anna Wu

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/03/13 08:45 AM

Originally Posted By judge
Done, enjoy.


Thanks for submitting the code. smile
Posted By: Vas Crabb

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/03/13 11:07 AM

OK, this diff tells MESS it's a mahjong panel and uses your default mahjong mappings while still giving the buttons their label names in your tab menu. Can someone please commit for me? I don't have SVN write access.
Code:
Index: src/mess/drivers/myvision.c
===================================================================
--- src/mess/drivers/myvision.c	(revision 26489)
+++ src/mess/drivers/myvision.c	(working copy)
@@ -14,7 +14,6 @@
 
     TODO:
     - Review software list
-    - Implement cnd figure out ontrols
     - Add clickable artwork
     - Verify sound chip model
     - Verify exact TMS9918 model
@@ -91,35 +90,35 @@
 static INPUT_PORTS_START( myvision )
 	PORT_START("ROW0")
 	PORT_BIT(0x07, IP_ACTIVE_LOW, IPT_UNUSED)
-	PORT_BIT(0x08, IP_ACTIVE_LOW, IPT_OTHER) PORT_NAME("13") PORT_CODE(KEYCODE_G)
-	PORT_BIT(0x10, IP_ACTIVE_LOW, IPT_JOYSTICK_DOWN)  // C
-	PORT_BIT(0x20, IP_ACTIVE_LOW, IPT_OTHER) PORT_NAME("9") PORT_CODE(KEYCODE_A)
-	PORT_BIT(0x40, IP_ACTIVE_LOW, IPT_OTHER) PORT_NAME("5") PORT_CODE(KEYCODE_T)
-	PORT_BIT(0x80, IP_ACTIVE_LOW, IPT_OTHER) PORT_NAME("1") PORT_CODE(KEYCODE_Q)
+	PORT_BIT(0x08, IP_ACTIVE_LOW, IPT_MAHJONG_M) PORT_NAME("13")
+	PORT_BIT(0x10, IP_ACTIVE_LOW, IPT_JOYSTICK_DOWN) PORT_NAME("C/Down")
+	PORT_BIT(0x20, IP_ACTIVE_LOW, IPT_MAHJONG_I) PORT_NAME("9")
+	PORT_BIT(0x40, IP_ACTIVE_LOW, IPT_MAHJONG_E) PORT_NAME("5")
+	PORT_BIT(0x80, IP_ACTIVE_LOW, IPT_MAHJONG_A) PORT_NAME("1")
 
 	PORT_START("ROW1")
 	PORT_BIT(0x07, IP_ACTIVE_LOW, IPT_UNUSED)
-	PORT_BIT(0x08, IP_ACTIVE_LOW, IPT_JOYSTICK_UP)
+	PORT_BIT(0x08, IP_ACTIVE_LOW, IPT_JOYSTICK_UP) PORT_NAME("B/Up")
 	PORT_BIT(0x10, IP_ACTIVE_LOW, IPT_UNUSED)
-	PORT_BIT(0x20, IP_ACTIVE_LOW, IPT_OTHER) PORT_NAME("12") PORT_CODE(KEYCODE_F)
-	PORT_BIT(0x40, IP_ACTIVE_LOW, IPT_OTHER) PORT_NAME("8") PORT_CODE(KEYCODE_I)
-	PORT_BIT(0x80, IP_ACTIVE_LOW, IPT_OTHER) PORT_NAME("4") PORT_CODE(KEYCODE_R)
+	PORT_BIT(0x20, IP_ACTIVE_LOW, IPT_MAHJONG_L) PORT_NAME("12")
+	PORT_BIT(0x40, IP_ACTIVE_LOW, IPT_MAHJONG_H) PORT_NAME("8")
+	PORT_BIT(0x80, IP_ACTIVE_LOW, IPT_MAHJONG_D) PORT_NAME("4")
 
 	PORT_START("ROW2")
 	PORT_BIT(0x07, IP_ACTIVE_LOW, IPT_UNUSED)
-	PORT_BIT(0x08, IP_ACTIVE_LOW, IPT_START) PORT_NAME("14/Start")
-	PORT_BIT(0x10, IP_ACTIVE_LOW, IPT_JOYSTICK_RIGHT)  // D
-	PORT_BIT(0x20, IP_ACTIVE_LOW, IPT_OTHER) PORT_NAME("10") PORT_CODE(KEYCODE_S)
-	PORT_BIT(0x40, IP_ACTIVE_LOW, IPT_OTHER) PORT_NAME("6") PORT_CODE(KEYCODE_Y)
-	PORT_BIT(0x80, IP_ACTIVE_LOW, IPT_OTHER) PORT_NAME("2") PORT_CODE(KEYCODE_W)
+	PORT_BIT(0x08, IP_ACTIVE_LOW, IPT_MAHJONG_N) PORT_NAME("14/Start")
+	PORT_BIT(0x10, IP_ACTIVE_LOW, IPT_JOYSTICK_RIGHT) PORT_NAME("D/Right")
+	PORT_BIT(0x20, IP_ACTIVE_LOW, IPT_MAHJONG_J) PORT_NAME("10")
+	PORT_BIT(0x40, IP_ACTIVE_LOW, IPT_MAHJONG_F) PORT_NAME("6")
+	PORT_BIT(0x80, IP_ACTIVE_LOW, IPT_MAHJONG_B) PORT_NAME("2")
 
 	PORT_START("ROW3")
 	PORT_BIT(0x07, IP_ACTIVE_LOW, IPT_UNUSED)
-	PORT_BIT(0x08, IP_ACTIVE_LOW, IPT_JOYSTICK_LEFT)
-	PORT_BIT(0x10, IP_ACTIVE_LOW, IPT_BUTTON1)  // E
-	PORT_BIT(0x20, IP_ACTIVE_LOW, IPT_OTHER) PORT_NAME("11") PORT_CODE(KEYCODE_D)
-	PORT_BIT(0x40, IP_ACTIVE_LOW, IPT_OTHER) PORT_NAME("7") PORT_CODE(KEYCODE_U)
-	PORT_BIT(0x80, IP_ACTIVE_LOW, IPT_OTHER) PORT_NAME("3") PORT_CODE(KEYCODE_E)
+	PORT_BIT(0x08, IP_ACTIVE_LOW, IPT_JOYSTICK_LEFT) PORT_NAME("A/Left")
+	PORT_BIT(0x10, IP_ACTIVE_LOW, IPT_BUTTON1) PORT_NAME("E")
+	PORT_BIT(0x20, IP_ACTIVE_LOW, IPT_MAHJONG_K) PORT_NAME("11")
+	PORT_BIT(0x40, IP_ACTIVE_LOW, IPT_MAHJONG_G) PORT_NAME("7")
+	PORT_BIT(0x80, IP_ACTIVE_LOW, IPT_MAHJONG_C) PORT_NAME("3")
 
 INPUT_PORTS_END
 
Posted By: judge

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/03/13 05:25 PM

Thanks, committed the input changes.
Posted By: judge

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/03/13 07:17 PM

Found a few more pictures here: http://usebu.forumactif.org/t2887-dossier-les-consoles-japonaises-meconnues one picture might be good enough for creating clickable artwork?
Posted By: Matty

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/03/13 09:45 PM

Originally Posted By judge
Found a few more pictures here: http://usebu.forumactif.org/t2887-dossier-les-consoles-japonaises-meconnues one picture might be good enough for creating clickable artwork?

Heh, yet another page referring to the elusive shimeshougi. It's amazing how pervasive the rhinos are. Also, someone should probably update this MESS wiki page as four of the games no longer need to be acquired, and it's pretty well established there's no BIOS to dump, just chips and clocks to identify in the console itself.
Posted By: Stiletto

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/04/13 03:57 AM

Originally Posted By Matty
Also, someone should probably update this MESS wiki page as four of the games no longer need to be acquired, and it's pretty well established there's no BIOS to dump, just chips and clocks to identify in the console itself.


Done. smile
Posted By: ssj

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/04/13 05:09 AM

Some of those lists seem to be a bit outdated, Casio PV-1000 and PV-2000 games have all been dumped except Fighting Bug (PV-1000) and Dai Shogai Keiba (PV-2000).

Some missing dumps that could be added:
Journey to the West and Ma Jong for the Supervision and 3D Attack for Arcadia 2001.
Posted By: Stiletto

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/04/13 06:43 AM

Originally Posted By ssj
Some of those lists seem to be a bit outdated,


Yes, because the primary maintainers were incog and ranger_lennier and when the MESS wiki went down for a long period a while ago, it seems they did not bother restoring their accounts. Or they think the wiki hosting is still not to be trusted. Or Real Life Syndrome hit them simultaneously. Or something.

Anyhow, that whole section of the wiki needs a new maintainer (like many things in MESS), and it's not going to be me. I took care of what you mentioned though.

Originally Posted By ssj
Casio PV-1000 and PV-2000 games have all been dumped except Fighting Bug (PV-1000) and Dai Shogai Keiba (PV-2000).


Done.

Originally Posted By ssj
Some missing dumps that could be added:
Journey to the West and Ma Jong for the Supervision and 3D Attack for Arcadia 2001.


I added the Undumped section for Watara Super Vision from /hash/svision.xml, hope it's accurate. Unless you really meant Bandai SuperVision 8000, but it seems not. smile
Posted By: Shideravan

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/04/13 03:33 PM

I think that some PICs of other obscure systems from some of these websites would be stored from someone.
I think that some of them is pretty rare, and maybe someday they coulçd be necessary and maybe these sites will be off :p
Posted By: ssj

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/04/13 05:22 PM

Thanks Stiletto, I'm pretty sure most of those Supervision games were never released or are simply misnamed version of existing dumps already.
The only 2 I have confirmation that do exist are the ones I mentioned.
Posted By: F1ReB4LL

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/06/13 09:05 PM

Originally Posted By ssj
Some of those lists seem to be a bit outdated, Casio PV-1000 and PV-2000 games have all been dumped except Fighting Bug (PV-1000) and Dai Shogai Keiba (PV-2000).

According to http://usebu.forumactif.org/t2887-dossier-les-consoles-japonaises-meconnues and http://www.geocities.co.jp/Playtown-King/8341/pv1000.html [GPA-113] Front Line is also missing for PV-1000.
Posted By: ssj

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/06/13 10:49 PM

#13 (supposedly Frontline, but not confirmed) was never released, same as #8.
Posted By: F1ReB4LL

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/07/13 11:58 AM

Originally Posted By ssj
#13 (supposedly Frontline, but not confirmed) was never released, same as #8.

Still better to mention, that #13 is supposedly Front Line (the words are separated on PV-2000 cover, btw), than just "No game is known to use serial ID GPA-108 and GPA-113".
Posted By: ssj

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/07/13 04:55 PM

Front Line is just a rumour I don't think anyone really knows where that info came from.
But yeah it's probably worth mentioning it in the hash files.
Posted By: Stiletto

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/11/13 06:56 PM

Tried to sync up that wiki page and the hash files. Thanks guys.
Posted By: TeamE

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/12/13 08:38 AM

Genius Leader 3003S:



dumped the internal rom of the "Genius Leader 3003S", which is the successor of the "Genius Leader 2000".

would be great if someone could add the rom to MESS. i included also HIGH-Quality scans of the screen and keyboard, if someone wants to make an artwork.

Download:
http://www.sendspace.com/file/7gggbp
Posted By: Anna Wu

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/12/13 08:41 AM

Nice job, TeamE smile
Posted By: TeamE

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/12/13 08:43 AM

Genius Leader Master Mega Color:




also dumped the internal rom of the "Master Mega Color".

Included are also dumps of two cartriges, which got already added to MESS-softlist some months ago.. again, it would be great if someone adds all this to MESS.

Download:
http://www.sendspace.com/file/u22i60
Posted By: xinyingho

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/24/13 12:38 AM

Hi everybody,

I didn't find anything on the MESS dumping project website so I'm asking here.
I wanted to know if this project started from scratch or used other well known sets as a base.
I can see that there are actually a lot of dumps exclusive to this project, but I can imagine that, for the most popular consoles, this project simply used reputable good sets to avoid duplicating good work already done. Am I wrong?
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/26/13 12:22 AM

Originally Posted By xinyingho
Hi everybody,

I didn't find anything on the MESS dumping project website so I'm asking here.
I wanted to know if this project started from scratch or used other well known sets as a base.
I can see that there are actually a lot of dumps exclusive to this project, but I can imagine that, for the most popular consoles, this project simply used reputable good sets to avoid duplicating good work already done. Am I wrong?


I'd say you're pretty much right. Most of the dumps in the software lists were dumped long ago, and organized by a number of different groups. Then any new dumps for those systems get added as they become available. Some people who post on the forums here have helped projects to redump game libraries, like the SNES, confirming that dumps are good and adding additional documentation about the PCBs and such. Myself, I've tended to look for games and systems obscure enough that they've never been dumped before, like the My Vision recently. Any of these things helps the project.
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/26/13 01:11 AM

Originally Posted By Stiletto
Originally Posted By ssj
Some of those lists seem to be a bit outdated,


Yes, because the primary maintainers were incog and ranger_lennier and when the MESS wiki went down for a long period a while ago, it seems they did not bother restoring their accounts. Or they think the wiki hosting is still not to be trusted. Or Real Life Syndrome hit them simultaneously. Or something.

Anyhow, that whole section of the wiki needs a new maintainer (like many things in MESS), and it's not going to be me. I took care of what you mentioned though.


I still have a Wiki account and have kept the list of undumped games that I own up to date. I don't think I ever did much with the general list of undumped software. I think I'll have a few suggestions for it, though. I'll post again when I get back home and my PC is actually repaired. The first repair didn't last long, and it looks like it will need a whole new motherboard. frown
Posted By: xinyingho

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/28/13 05:40 PM

@ranger_lennier: thanks for your confirmation.

As I understand, the MESS Dumping Project is focused on dumping ROMs as close as possible to the reality, the same way MAME has always done. That's why for NES and other cartridge based consoles, a game can be a set of several ROM images instead of being a lump of all ROM chip content merged into a single file.

But then for disc based systems, how do you dump disc content? You probably heard about the Trurip project, they're dumping discs with subchannels included. Are you also going it this way?
Posted By: F1ReB4LL

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/28/13 09:19 PM

Originally Posted By xinyingho
You probably heard about the Trurip project, they're dumping discs with subchannels included. Are you also going it this way?

Their subs are identical to clonecd ones, with the same amount of random errors, hence, useless for preservation. Also, they fix all the errors in the data tracks, even if they are present on the original CD, so, even game images themselves from Trurip are not suitable for preservation purposes.
Posted By: Octocontrabass

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/28/13 11:55 PM

Short of buying a microscope and tracing out the entire data spiral, there is no way that I know of to get an exact copy of an optical disc including all data errors. CD drives are too smart!
Posted By: xinyingho

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/29/13 01:23 AM

@F1ReB4LL: I agree with Octocontrabass, there aren't any CD drives that allow to copy data tracks without corrections. So doing a real 1:1 copy isn't feasible or you have to build your own CD drive for this!
Maybe modifying a drive firmware could allow this?

Anyway, dumping subchannels is a good move as, on some disc-based systems, subchannels become regular data channels for copy protection systems.
Posted By: Lord Nightmare

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/29/13 07:24 AM

I was under the impression that certain PATA Plextor drives actually CAN copy the raw uncorrected scrambled data using some undocumented (but reverse engineered) debug commands to dump the memory of the cd decoder mcu while it is decoding sectors.

LN
Posted By: Octocontrabass

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/29/13 08:18 AM

A CD is composed of channel frames, which are decoded to F3 frames, which are decoded to F2 frames, which are decoded to F1 frames, which are decoded to scrambled sectors. (By the way, F3 frames are where the control bytes - or "subchannel" - come from.)

For CDs at least, you can get the scrambled sectors by making the drive read a TOC from an audio CD, then use the emergency eject to swap with a data disc. Just don't do it with a drive you like. wink
Posted By: xinyingho

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/29/13 02:03 PM

So it's actually possible to get uncorrected scrambled sectors using some obscure drives or unsafe methods. So by obtaining these, it's easy to convert them back to F1-frames.
We all know how to retrieve subchannels / control bytes. So to reconstruct F3-frames, we still need the Parity / Error Correction bits added while converting F1 to F2-frames.
But then, is it possible to retrieve them?
Posted By: F1ReB4LL

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/29/13 03:14 PM

Originally Posted By Lord Nightmare
I was under the impression that certain PATA Plextor drives actually CAN copy the raw uncorrected scrambled data using some undocumented (but reverse engineered) debug commands to dump the memory of the cd decoder mcu while it is decoding sectors.

No, undocumented commands are needed to dump DVDs in 2064 bytes/sector (2384/sector on certain drives). Scrambled dumps are achieved using the 0xD8 reading command, which is documented in the official SCSI-2 Command Set document. Also, it's possible to do the swapping trick using the 700MB audio disc and dump the data disc as audio to get the unscrambled copy (not all the drives support swapping, though). Swapping also allows to dump the DC GD-ROMs properly in opposite to TOSEC/TruRip methods (they dump using the consoles losing the data in pregaps and subchannels, so these are inaccurate).
Posted By: Octocontrabass

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/29/13 06:54 PM

Microscopes are still the only way I know of to get an exact copy of the pits and lands on a disc. I would love for someone to prove me wrong. wink
Posted By: R. Belmont

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/30/13 08:05 AM

Hi, this flame war over "proper" CD reading methods is neither helpful nor unknown nor on topic. Please return to the topic of reporting interesting new dumps and pretend the last page or so of comments don't exist, because they are not going to as soon as the holidays are over smile

xinyingho: the level of detail required for CDs for the systems currently supported does not require the level of analness being displayed here. If and when TruRip actually comes through on their alleged technique to rip pits and lands (via modified drive firmware) we'll be interested, but going too detailed for its own sake introduces its own set of problems smile Until then, TOSEC type dumps serve our purposes.
Posted By: xinyingho

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 12/30/13 08:26 AM

R. Belmont: thanks for your clear answer smile
Posted By: ranger_lennier

Re: MESS Dumping Project ? - 01/05/14 04:35 AM

Charles MacDonald has now dumped the other part of the carts I sent him recently--a complete set of 7 carts for the Bandai Supervision 8000. Released in 1979, this system is notable for being the first video game system with interchangable ROM carts to be designed in Japan. While the Toshiba Visicom was released earlier, it's a clone of the American RCA Studio II system. While not quite as obscure as the Nichibutsu My Vision, there's still not a lot of information on English-language sites. The Video Game Console Library has a good overview, though.

http://www.videogameconsolelibrary.com/pg70-super_vis