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Posted By: ssj Dumping Saturn ROM carts - 09/07/13 05:42 AM
Anyone has any info or is able to dump the Saturn ROM carts? I'm trying to get the UltraMan Hikari no Kyojin Densetsu ROM cart dumped, but can't find anything about it.
Someone already dumped the KOF '95 cart so hopefully the info is out there, would be nice to finally get this one dumped too as these are the only 2 games that use this kind of carts.
Posted By: Haze Re: Dumping Saturn ROM carts - 09/07/13 09:32 AM
I imagine it's just a 'standard' sega mask rom inside and can be dumped like any arcade board by those capable? that would be the correct way to dump it anyway.
Posted By: ssj Re: Dumping Saturn ROM carts - 09/07/13 11:31 AM
Thanks Haze, I was kinda hoping it would be possible to dump it with some hacks from the actual console.
But if that's the case is there anyone capable of dumping it around here?
Posted By: Haze Re: Dumping Saturn ROM carts - 09/07/13 11:43 AM
Team Europe, Smitdogg / Dumping Union?

dumping via the console isn't really preferable, sometimes you get things like rom overlays provided by the system that will leave you with a bad dump if things are done that way (eg. many of the SegaCD bios dumps) likewise if the ROM turns out to be banked you might only get a single bank (again quite a few systems in MESS have suffered due to this)

of course that might not be the case here but generally it's preferable to dump things properly when it is an option.

that doesn't mean you can't get a bad dump doing things properly too mind you, so it is important that somebody who knows how to handle them does it, we've seen many half-size sega mask rom dumps in the past ;-)

it would be pretty much a one-off thing for this anyway, as you say the only 2 games known to be using ROM carts are kof95 and this and I've been hoping to see it dumped for a while now.



Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Dumping Saturn ROM carts - 09/07/13 12:43 PM
You can't dump via the console because all of the console/PC interfaces go in the cartridge slot. (This was true of the actual real devkits too).
Posted By: ssj Re: Dumping Saturn ROM carts - 09/07/13 01:08 PM
Ok so console is out of question.

How do I go about contacting Team Europe? Should I send a pm to TeamE through the forum here?
Posted By: Haze Re: Dumping Saturn ROM carts - 09/07/13 01:13 PM
yeah they should be contactable on here, although not sure how often they check.

you might want to open up the cart first just so they know what they're dealing with (I guess there's a slim chance it will be some annoying 'blob' thing inside) but that's really the only further thing I have to say.
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Dumping Saturn ROM carts - 09/07/13 01:31 PM
Should be similar to ST-V and Naomi carts (SMT mask ROMs galore), but yeah having a picture of the PCB in advance of making arrangements would be helpful.
Posted By: etabeta78 Re: Dumping Saturn ROM carts - 09/07/13 05:30 PM
I would expect it to be similar to the kof95 cart

http://ef80.cocolog-nifty.com/blog/2012/06/95-09f0.html

Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Dumping Saturn ROM carts - 09/07/13 06:14 PM
Yup, that's basically a very bare ST-V cart smile
Posted By: F1ReB4LL Re: Dumping Saturn ROM carts - 09/10/13 06:30 PM
Don't forget there are 2 "special" bundled backup carts (Tokimeki Memorial and Tamagotchi Park), that are needed to be taken from sealed packs and checked, whether they are initially empty or not.
Posted By: Haze Re: Dumping Saturn ROM carts - 09/10/13 06:37 PM
if they weren't empty when they shipped they probably are now ;-)

tbh you could say the same about any game with backup ram or eeprom tho.. while it's likely 99% shipped in a default / blank state some might have shipped with specific extra easter egg data, but nobody is going to check them all.
Posted By: F1ReB4LL Re: Dumping Saturn ROM carts - 09/10/13 08:28 PM
I have doubts about Tamagotchi Park, since PC, Mac and Pippin versions had an enclosed floppy, AFAIK it contained some data to limit a number of tries/deaths (like original Tamagotchi toys). And Saturn version comes with its own cart, pretty suspicious smile
Posted By: ssj Re: Dumping Saturn ROM carts - 09/11/13 03:59 AM
I've sent a pm to TeamE the other day, but still no reply. He probably didn't check the forum meanwhile, if anyone has another way of contacting him/them please tell him to check his pm here.
Posted By: Haze Re: Dumping Saturn ROM carts - 09/11/13 01:37 PM
I've sent them an email
Posted By: ssj Re: Dumping Saturn ROM carts - 09/12/13 05:14 AM
Thanks Haze, he just got back to me smile
Posted By: ssj Re: Dumping Saturn ROM carts - 09/13/13 06:32 AM
Game has been bought and Team Europe will dump it once it gets to him.

Does anyone own the KOF'95 PAL cart? If so could you please scan the cart label for me? A hi-resolution picture would also work fine.
Posted By: ssj Re: Dumping Saturn ROM carts - 10/01/13 09:31 PM
Cart has now been preserved, thanks to Team Europe for making it happen.
Posted By: Haze Re: Dumping Saturn ROM carts - 10/01/13 09:33 PM
glad to hear it :-)
Posted By: Haze Re: Dumping Saturn ROM carts - 10/01/13 10:05 PM
unfortunately the current dump is clearly bad.
Posted By: etabeta78 Re: Dumping Saturn ROM carts - 10/02/13 05:00 AM
yeah, I had looked into the dump as well, and it misses half of the data...

Charles is in touch with TeamEurope about this, anyway, so I'd expect a good dump to get obtained pretty soon
Posted By: ssj Re: Dumping Saturn ROM carts - 10/02/13 06:46 AM
Yeah seems so, but a good dump seems to be in the way. TeamEurope has the cart now anyway so that's half the battle smile
Posted By: Haze Re: Dumping Saturn ROM carts - 10/02/13 05:43 PM
http://mamedev.emulab.it/haze/2013/10/02/sega-ultradrive/ (Ultraman screenshots)
Posted By: Anna Wu Re: Dumping Saturn ROM carts - 10/02/13 06:00 PM
Originally Posted By Haze


Exist now a good dump?
Posted By: ssj Re: Dumping Saturn ROM carts - 10/02/13 06:43 PM
Yeah new dump is fine now smile
I'll see if it will work in SSF, seems it also boots fine with Yabause.
Posted By: zyrobs Re: Dumping Saturn ROM carts - 10/02/13 07:05 PM
Do we have cart/pcb pictures for Ultraman too, or only the rom dump?

Originally Posted By F1ReB4LL
I have doubts about Tamagotchi Park, since PC, Mac and Pippin versions had an enclosed floppy, AFAIK it contained some data to limit a number of tries/deaths (like original Tamagotchi toys). And Saturn version comes with its own cart, pretty suspicious smile


The only way to do that would be to get a sealed copy and check if it contains any saves.

Originally Posted By R. Belmont
You can't dump via the console because all of the console/PC interfaces go in the cartridge slot. (This was true of the actual real devkits too).


You can, you just need to use a different output! The KOF95 cart was dumped this way back in 2009 - the cart was put in the console, and the data was played back as audio.

IIRC you can also use the floppy disc as well for dumping.
Posted By: TeamE Re: Dumping Saturn ROM carts - 10/02/13 07:35 PM
Do we have cart/pcb pictures for Ultraman too, or only the rom dump?

of course we have:

Box front
Box rear
Cartridge shell front
Cartridge shell read
PCB front
PCB rear
Posted By: zyrobs Re: Dumping Saturn ROM carts - 10/02/13 07:54 PM
Excellent, thanks!
Posted By: ssj Re: Dumping Saturn ROM carts - 10/02/13 11:18 PM
I'm still trying to find cart scans/pics for the Euro KOF '95 cart btw, just in case someone might be able to help.
Posted By: Anna Wu Re: Dumping Saturn ROM carts - 10/03/13 04:18 AM
Originally Posted By ssj
Yeah new dump is fine now smile
I'll see if it will work in SSF, seems it also boots fine with Yabause.


Great smile

Maybe someone can upload it on ftp server for devs?
Posted By: Anna Wu Re: Dumping Saturn ROM carts - 10/03/13 05:18 AM
Quote:
Maybe someone can upload it on ftp server for devs?


Done

PS: Thanks TeamE!
Posted By: zyrobs Re: Dumping Saturn ROM carts - 10/03/13 07:13 PM
A friend compared the Team Europe dump to his own (unreleased) one, and the CRC matches, so it can be considered a [!] dump or however you mark those that have two independent good dumps.
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Dumping Saturn ROM carts - 10/03/13 08:19 PM
Nice for the confirmation, but it's a depressing situation any time someone has to buy something that's already dumped because people won't share.
Posted By: Lord Nightmare Re: Dumping Saturn ROM carts - 10/03/13 08:26 PM
+1 to what arbee said
Posted By: zyrobs Re: Dumping Saturn ROM carts - 10/03/13 10:45 PM
Originally Posted By R. Belmont
Nice for the confirmation, but it's a depressing situation any time someone has to buy something that's already dumped because people won't share.


Tell that to the Yabause guys who had the KOF95 cart dumped eons ago, yet it wasn't shared until a person I know dumped it independently (and then a friend confirmed that its a good dump).
Posted By: ssj Re: Dumping Saturn ROM carts - 10/04/13 12:52 AM
Originally Posted By R. Belmont
Nice for the confirmation, but it's a depressing situation any time someone has to buy something that's already dumped because people won't share.

Very depressing indeed, but that's what it is and we have to live with it. Just like those collectors with a lot of undumped CD games that could be easily dumped, but they refuse to dump anything at all. FM Towns comes to mind.
Posted By: Haze Re: Dumping Saturn ROM carts - 10/04/13 02:07 AM
It's the same with many things we do to be honest, not just ROMs.. there are always people out there who could help with information or otherwise but simply don't.

Think about it for a second, tally up how many people there are on this planet who could contribute to emulation, then think how many actually do. Obviously we throw the net as wide as possible to get as many people involved as we can, but there are tens of thousands who could be making more of a difference.


Posted By: Anna Wu Re: Dumping Saturn ROM carts - 10/04/13 05:15 AM
Originally Posted By ssj
Originally Posted By R. Belmont
Nice for the confirmation, but it's a depressing situation any time someone has to buy something that's already dumped because people won't share.

Very depressing indeed, but that's what it is and we have to live with it. Just like those collectors with a lot of undumped CD games that could be easily dumped, but they refuse to dump anything at all. FM Towns comes to mind.


It reminds me on "Illumination Laser" for the X68K, unfortunately some people won´t share this doujin game.
Posted By: Madroms Re: Dumping Saturn ROM carts - 10/04/13 04:49 PM
Hi everyone.
I just registered on your forum to talk about this specific topic, without making a debate about sharing, and to make some points clear.

I am the one zyrobs talked about, who dumped the Ultraman ROM cart some years ago.
At first, it was a personal challenge (I don't have any experience with dumping ROM), and I succeeded.
I don't have any material to directly dump ROM so I asked myself, according to how Saturn works, if it is possible to dump ROMs directly by using the Saturn itself. I coded a special tool (a Saturn program) to do so and it works as expected.
(Yes, you can use the Saturn to dump ROMs, if you do it right)

To verify the ROM carts you dumped (for KOF'95 and Ultraman only), you can check the internal CRC directly found on the header. It doesn't verify the header and so the complete dump though. But I was confident my dumps are good.

I was able to dump Saturn bioses, ROM from cartridges (KOF95, Ultraman, all other cartridges like satellite, magic card v2, AR, Xterminator, clones,....) and also MPEG Cards bioses.

I planed to share them on my site, but due to no real interest in them, I put my effort in something else, like dumping Dezaemon 2 save games and releasing them. They had more replay value than the Ultraman ROM cart to be honest: having 184 new games to play is much better than 1 poor game.
And then, I little forgot to make a post about my dumps, real life being really more important at this time (works, health problems, new born kid,... You know what I mean).

Also, if I correctly understand the situation by reading here and there, people tend to not like dumps made with something else than a ROM dumper, and I understand why. So, in reality, less interest in my dumps just because how I made them.

Btw, if I known there was a new interest in the Ultraman ROM dumps, I would have expressed myself sooner, but I am not registered on all forums available on the net, and so I didn't see the post made by ssj here.

To finish, thanks to all of you for the hard work you put on the MAME/MESS/UME/Arcade scenes.
Posted By: Lord Nightmare Re: Dumping Saturn ROM carts - 10/04/13 05:19 PM
Madroms: A dump made via software and not directly dumped is still a dump; it may get marked as 'unverified' or 'bad' (though likely not the latter in this case as it has a header checksum), but an unverified dump is still way better than no dump at all.

Just my $0.02

LN
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Dumping Saturn ROM carts - 10/04/13 05:21 PM
Yeah, a non-EPROM dump that matches the internal checksum would've been fine. And I certainly understand not bothering to post it back when there was no Saturn emulation.
Posted By: ssj Re: Dumping Saturn ROM carts - 10/04/13 07:37 PM
How come there was no Saturn emulation? Maybe not in MESS, but Saturn emulation has been around for ages. Besides there are plenty of dumped games for systems that aren't even emulated at all and probably some will never be, making a dump public or not because of that doesn't make any sense.

Even after Madrom's explanation I still don't understand why the dump wasn't shared before, if you had it around you could have easily released it in the web somewhere it's not like it would take you more than a couple of minutes to do so. The hardest part was done already which was dumping it.

Doesn't really matter if anyone cares about a game or not it's a matter of preserving it so the replay value of a game is pointless. I don't think I will play this game at all, I just put money towards the cart so it could be preserved that's the main point of dumping the games.

Funny that all this subject was only brought up after the cart was dumped and made public. Everyone knew the cart has been dumped before and was being hoarded like many others, but no one ever stepped forward sharing the dump meanwhile. All of a sudden seems the previous dumpers were actually interested on making it public, sorry to doubt you, but I find that very unlikely.
Anyway doesn't really matter anymore the cart is dumped and available to everyone now.
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Dumping Saturn ROM carts - 10/04/13 07:56 PM
Saturn emulation was spotty and not worth using until around 2009/2010. Hell, it's spotty *now* - there is no one emulator that runs all games with the same timings and settings.
Posted By: ssj Re: Dumping Saturn ROM carts - 10/04/13 11:31 PM
True, even though by 2008 SSF already had a pretty decent compatibility, some games were actually playable before that.
But either way that's not a reason for games not being dumped and shared. Otherwise why would we want those Hartung Game Master cart dumps for (just an example).
Posted By: zyrobs Re: Dumping Saturn ROM carts - 10/06/13 05:55 PM
SSF was playable since 2006 or so (and was running games back in 2001, if at unplayable speeds due to slow computers), but it only recently got an option to run external cartridges.

Yabause had an option to use external carts but turned out that KOF95 didn't work even with that, the screenshots they released of it working was some 1 in a thousand random chance bootup.
Posted By: Kale Re: Dumping Saturn ROM carts - 10/06/13 07:49 PM
SSF still has some quirks, for example it crashes on test1f diag cache test (unrelated to the fact that the option is enabled or not). And it doesn't support keyboard for example, so if you want to fiddle with Game Basic your only option is MESS.

Yabause is mediocre at best, most if not all of the games that don't work on MESS doesn't work on Yabause as well. And MESS has some pluses too (After Burner 2, Fantasy Zone, Out Run, Road Blaster colors, Game Basic and probably more). MESS has some minuses especially on the video emulation field but I'll pass on saying how much broken, outdated and unoptimized is that part again.

But yes, I don't negate that we still have many problems on each single field, but Sega Saturn emulation *IS* hard because minor details like how fast are each DMA and how CD block really works are still a mystery, and the few that knows has no intention of sharing info. And yes, little details like these makes a definite difference on a eight (nine if you consider the keyboard MCU) CPU core beast like the Satan is ...
Posted By: zyrobs Re: Dumping Saturn ROM carts - 10/07/13 02:38 AM
I'd consider those mysteries very important if they were the only remaining things... there are hundreds of other things which are documented but not implemented in MAME/MESS, such as the video hardware like you said.

And there was supposed to be a decap of the SH1, but that didn't go anywhere either. Although I imagine that it wouldn't help much, beyond making it possible to check the SH1 internal ROM and so the exact copy protection scheme. The majority of the CD Block operations are done on the OCU which is a custom controller.
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Dumping Saturn ROM carts - 10/07/13 03:17 AM
Careful, zyrobs, you're on the border between reciting facts and just insulting the devs.

The SH-1 controls the entire sector caching and filter setup, so it'll still be nice to have decapped at some point.
Posted By: zyrobs Re: Dumping Saturn ROM carts - 10/07/13 04:13 PM
I don't mean any disrespect. I'm just saying that, the lack of timing and the CD blocks workings are things I've seen brought up non-stop for so long, that one would think everything else is worked out already.
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Dumping Saturn ROM carts - 10/07/13 04:37 PM
Right, but for basic compatibility those are by far the most important things. Booting and running every game makes it a lot easier to make sure you're fixing the graphics right later.
Posted By: Kale Re: Dumping Saturn ROM carts - 10/07/13 04:47 PM
SH-1 also does some data reformatting, basically working more as a CPU driven via commands than a normal CD-ROM reader. Check commands 0x64 / 0x66 for an example (and yes, we still don't emulate Sword & Sorcery and Riglord Saga 2 because I'm more or less confused about what exactly the copy sector command is supposed to do).

And yes, this also means that you can effectively use the internal RAM in SH-1 for a temp storage.
Posted By: zyrobs Re: Dumping Saturn ROM carts - 11/12/13 12:27 AM
Question, I have a few Saturn related roms which are in DIP42 and SOP44 packages. The latter are possibly all NEC upD23c16000 chips (only half of the chips are marked as such).

What hardware could I use to dump those? Sending the chips to somewhere else is not an option.

I'm looking at either the Willem GQ-4X or a TOP3000...
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Dumping Saturn ROM carts - 11/12/13 04:32 AM
I think Guru uses his BP Micro for those, or possibly a TopMax.
Posted By: Phil Bennett Re: Dumping Saturn ROM carts - 11/12/13 10:17 AM
A TOP3000 would suffice for the DIP42 ROMs, assuming they can be dumped as 27C800, 27C160 or 27C322. The GQ-4X would need a DIP42 adaptor.

As for the SOP44 stuff, maybe, if you can find an adaptor. Good luck smile
Posted By: robcfg Re: Dumping Saturn ROM carts - 11/12/13 02:03 PM
In case it helps, I have a Top3000, so if you don't mind sending the chips I can dump them for you.

I also have some Tsop adapters, I'll take a look tonight and tell you.
Posted By: zyrobs Re: Dumping Saturn ROM carts - 11/12/13 07:12 PM
Originally Posted By robcfg
In case it helps, I have a Top3000, so if you don't mind sending the chips I can dump them for you.

I also have some Tsop adapters, I'll take a look tonight and tell you.


Sending the chips to dump is not an option, but thanks for the offer.

My choice is down to the Wellon VP-390 and the Top3000 at the moment. I'm leaning towards the latter; it gets a lot of good reputation and it's cheaper so I can get an extra adapter for it.

edit: The Wellon seems to support way more devices though... might be a better option in the long run. I plan on programming roms with this as well, any maybe PICs and 16v8s.
edit2: But the Wellon is also too expensive with all the necessary adapters taken into the cost.
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