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Posted By: spyhunter Spy Hunter arcade bad sound emulation - 04/23/16 02:51 PM
Hello, was just curious if someone was working on fixing the sound emulation problems with Spy Hunter the arcade?

I posted about it on mametesters for anyone interested:

http://mametesters.org/view.php?id=5452

Thanks
Posted By: hap Re: Spy Hunter arcade bad sound emulation - 04/23/16 05:16 PM
Please don't crosspost.
An informative reaction from a MAMEdev to your question is here: http://www.mameworld.info/ubbthreads/sho...part=1&vc=1
Posted By: spyhunter Re: Spy Hunter arcade bad sound emulation - 04/24/16 06:36 AM
I crossposted because the informative reaction sucked.
Posted By: qmc2 Re: Spy Hunter arcade bad sound emulation - 04/24/16 06:50 AM
What else do you expect then?
Posted By: anikom15 Re: Spy Hunter arcade bad sound emulation - 04/24/16 08:43 AM
Biting the hand that feeds you is generally a bad idea.
Posted By: Haze Re: Spy Hunter arcade bad sound emulation - 04/24/16 09:34 AM
Yeah, and while I seem to get downvoted every time I say this, we only have a very small core team, the same devs are reading here as are reading MW, as are reading Mametesters etc.

You got a very comprehensive reply all things considered, just because it wasn't the one you wanted doesn't mean you should cross-post it everywhere.

I've noticed this, along with a huge amount of disrespect for the team in general is massively on the increase again. While not the case here I think some of it might be because we've given users an inch by doing a few things they want and now they think they rule the project. I dislike having to go into bitchy mode with users, but after a number of generally good years I feel like we're being pushed back in that direction.
Posted By: spyhunter Re: Spy Hunter arcade bad sound emulation - 10/09/21 06:35 PM
It is a MAJOR disrespect to the game to leave it broken forever…. why is this so hard to fix? What if Arcade 1UP repros the game all F’d up…. I know, YOU DON’T CARE…

Thanks a lot…
Posted By: Alegend45 Re: Spy Hunter arcade bad sound emulation - 10/09/21 06:40 PM
Just accept that you're wrong, holy shit.
Posted By: spyhunter Re: Spy Hunter arcade bad sound emulation - 10/09/21 06:46 PM
MAME is supposed to be a celebration of arcade games, your treatment of a big time hit arcade such as SPY HUNTER, is an absolute INSULT!!

Multicades have insulted the game over and over again by using your stupid code…

I just don’t understand it, I CAN totally blame you, you created this monster, don’t blame me, I am doing a service to everyone that is in love with the game…. get it straight!!

How dare YOU?
Take your medication you fucking lunatic.
Posted By: mixmaster Re: Spy Hunter arcade bad sound emulation - 10/09/21 09:19 PM
What the fuck am I looking at here?
Posted By: Darkstar Re: Spy Hunter arcade bad sound emulation - 10/09/21 09:56 PM
Originally Posted by Haze
I've noticed this, along with a huge amount of disrespect for the team in general is massively on the increase again
The main reason, at least here on this forum, is that there don't seem to be any active moderators here anymore, so everyone can come in and insult everyone else without fear of consequences.
Posted By: Haze Re: Spy Hunter arcade bad sound emulation - 10/09/21 10:20 PM
you're quoting me from 5 years ago, because this guy decided to come along and bump his threads everywhere he crossposted them before, despite getting a comprehensive answer at the time.

maybe if he invested the same amount of effort into understanding how things worked he could actually fix it instead... most people developing MAME these days are regular users.
Posted By: Darkstar Re: Spy Hunter arcade bad sound emulation - 10/09/21 10:25 PM
Indeed, sorry, I didn't check the date properly.

My point still stands though, recently lots of posts here have been allowed which would, 10 years a go or so, have resulted in an immediate ban and/or deletion.
Posted By: robcfg Re: Spy Hunter arcade bad sound emulation - 10/09/21 10:28 PM
Just report the post to moderation.
Posted By: kmg Re: Spy Hunter arcade bad sound emulation - 10/09/21 10:43 PM
It's one thing to cross-post in user forums with this kind of stuff, but he's also unloaded on MT (now deleted it seems). If it deserves a ban anywhere, it's on the bug tracker—that's a tool, not a place for venting.
Posted By: MrBogi Re: Spy Hunter arcade bad sound emulation - 10/10/21 12:39 AM
Originally Posted by spyhunter
It is a MAJOR disrespect to the game to leave it broken forever…. why is this so hard to fix? What if Arcade 1UP repros the game all F’d up…. I know, YOU DON’T CARE…

YOU have had 5.5 years to figure this out yourself. What have YOU been doing with YOUR time? It is a MAJOR disrespect to the game / developers / community to KNOW that it is broken and to be so SURE that it is an EASY fix to not take the time YOURSELF and figure it out.

Oh wait... I know... YOU DON'T CARE
Posted By: Vas Crabb Re: Spy Hunter arcade bad sound emulation - 10/10/21 08:30 AM
Originally Posted by spyhunter
It is a MAJOR disrespect to the game to leave it broken forever…. why is this so hard to fix? What if Arcade 1UP repros the game all F’d up…. I know, YOU DON’T CARE…
Major disrespect to the game? Like, in your mind the game is a sacred deity and it’s blasphemy to emulate it imperfectly? You need to have a serious think about your values.

As for Arcade 1UP, they’ll do whatever it is they do, we don’t control them. They might have a stab at emulating it better, but they’d probably just screw it up somehow no matter how well MAME emulates it.

Originally Posted by spyhunter
MAME is supposed to be a celebration of arcade games, your treatment of a big time hit arcade such as SPY HUNTER, is an absolute INSULT!!

Multicades have insulted the game over and over again by using your stupid code…
MAME is not a celebration of arcade games. MAME is a living documentation project to ensure digital culture is preserved. We’ve succeeded in ensuring that the Spy Hunter ROMs are documented and archived. Be thankful that you can play the original game at all, and not some poor-quality reproduction.

Once again, we have nothing to do with the people selling multi-game arcade cabinets. If they think old versions of MAME are good enough for their purposes, they’ll use them. It seems that no matter how much we improve emulation, they’ll stick with old versions anyway. Even if we were to improve Spy Hunter sound, they’d keep using old versions without the fixes.

Originally Posted by spyhunter
I just don’t understand it, I CAN totally blame you, you created this monster, don’t blame me, I am doing a service to everyone that is in love with the game…. get it straight!!

How dare YOU?
So would you prefer we don’t emulate the game at all, or for the ROMs to fall out of circulation? If MAME’s emulation isn’t good enough for you, you’re free to purchase and maintain a Spy Hunter cabinet. You haven’t paid us for our time, we have no obligations to you. Also, if you’re “in love with the game” to the point that you feel a need to post rants like this, you need to re-think your outlook.
Originally Posted by spyhunter
MAME is supposed to be a celebration of arcade games, your treatment of a big time hit arcade such as SPY HUNTER, is an absolute INSULT!!

Multicades have insulted the game over and over again by using your stupid code…

I just don’t understand it, I CAN totally blame you, you created this monster, don’t blame me, I am doing a service to everyone that is in love with the game…. get it straight!!

How dare YOU?
Obvious troll is obvious even five years later. How dare you steal Greta Thunberg's meme.
Had Spy Hunter analogue envelope and filter hardware?

It is no insult to lack complicated sound features. It's much worse when 8-bit games turn fully unplayable on non-highend CPUs by too overzealous discrete sound emulation attempts without permitting a bypass (e.g. sample based) mode. E.g. Sega vector games with speech stutter at 10% speed now on my 1.6GHz Core2Duo which runs similar games from before that update fine. Also Sega vector games without speech work well despite emulated analogue sound, and the GI SP0250 speech chip itself is digital.
Posted By: Darkstar Re: Spy Hunter arcade bad sound emulation - 11/15/21 09:23 AM
I think nobody here cares very much that your 15 year old potato computer cannot run games at full speed anymore.

If you want an emulator that runs on that piece of junk, I guess you will have to write it yourself
Originally Posted by robcfg
Just report the post to moderation.

Indeed, please do that – I don't get to read this board that often, but I do take action when stuff is reported to me.
Originally Posted by Darkstar
I think nobody here cares very much that your 15 year old potato computer cannot run games at full speed anymore.

I do not condemn precise analogue modelling of sound hardware. It is progress to solve the puzzle of understanding the inner working to add realism.

But that is to say, it is untypical for retrogamers to use a modern "gamer PC" for MAME. Very often old PCs get reused to run emulators instead of ending up as e-waste, which is an act of sustainability for preserving the planet. Hence at a point where analogue modelling suddenly starts to consume ridiculous amounts of CPU power (particularly in ratio to other MAME games of its era with similar sound complexity like Donkey Kong or Q*Bert) there needs to be a bypass switch for simpler audio rendering. In comparison, the video rendering in MAME still can be detailedly tweaked by the user to match given hardware, and nobody would request to buy a higher resolution TFT monitor instead of the installed CRT.

And my laptop is definitely less than 15 years old, however it is one of the last repairable models that got not mined with a lurking unremovable lithium incendiary bomb and permitted physically removal of the wifi plague. It is ok that Hard Drivin plays a little choppy, but a computer that can run Win10 is not junk and needs to stay supported in MAME at least for 1980th 2D and sprite zoom games.
A 1.6 GHz Core 2 Duo? Granted, it's a laptop, but my Core 2 Duo E7400 desktop of 2009 vintage is almost double that clock rate, I'm sure you could find something just a little bit quicker in the e-waste pile. Does it absolutely need to be a laptop?

Yes, I have my fair share of potato PCs too, case in point a single-core AMD Sempron 140. It's absolutely useless for anything quicker than PlayStation 1 hardware in MAME (it fails my Tekken 3 test e.g. can't even reach 100% even in 240p mode, let alone 480) and looking at MAME benchmarks, it might even be slower than a Raspberry Pi 4, which is just embarrassing. That said, I'm sure the crappy integrated Nvidia nForce 630a GPU is also helping it to be such a slug.
Originally Posted by =CO=Windler
there needs to be a bypass switch for simpler audio rendering

But that's not what MAME is. MAME is about accuracy.
Well, it is an archeological project. So I do not complain that my laptop e.g. reaches its technical limits at Sega polygon games or some barely optimized parallax scrolling sprite zoomers.

But with these 8bit games it simply feels terribly wrong to add a such enormous CPU consumption footprint for a minor sound improvement. It is like seeing your neighbour replacing his compact car with a Hummer that now occupies 2 parking places and protrudes onto half of the bicycle track, and the only answer you get is "Hey, I got this vehicle officially registered as a passenger car, hence I now can park here." When many people with moderate hardware can not realize these games anymore (at least without additional installation of old MAME versions in different directories) this also increases their risk of getting forgotten (even though they stay technically preserved). So please add an alternative simpler sound mode with less CPU consumption.

To me it is even hard to understand why this is a so much bigger CPU hog than other netlist analogue sound games. May there be an obscure bug that clogs the FPU? E.g. AMD K6 CPUs had the bad habit of switching the FPU suddenly into another mode when numbers (e.g. as result of repeated dividing) grew too small and hence switched the internal binary number format to keep precision. But because this special mode used lengthy microcode instead of hardware for calculation, it ran 100 times slower. There was an opcode to turn this off to live with reduced numerical precision in favour for full speed, but software that did not know it (e.g. "Visual Pinball" when balls rolled very slowly) ran into a swamp of syrup and so often got stuck like flies on a flypaper (e.g. during sound decay of a softsynth) for no obvious reason.
Posted By: Darkstar Re: Spy Hunter arcade bad sound emulation - 11/17/21 08:53 AM
> To me it is even hard to understand...

So, you don't understand the goals of MAME. Fine. But nobody is forcing you to use the newest version of MAME. If you are fine with playing a bad/incorrect version of your favorite 8-bit game, by all means, use MAME 0.34 or something else. Just don't try and get support for that here (or anywhere, for that matter).

Samples will not be coming back, and everyone is happy that they won't (well, everyone except you). Just get a better computer
Posted By: Vas Crabb Re: Spy Hunter arcade bad sound emulation - 11/17/21 09:38 AM
Originally Posted by =CO=Windler
But with these 8bit games it simply feels terribly wrong to add a such enormous CPU consumption footprint for a minor sound improvement. It is like seeing your neighbour replacing his compact car with a Hummer that now occupies 2 parking places and protrudes onto half of the bicycle track, and the only answer you get is "Hey, I got this vehicle officially registered as a passenger car, hence I now can park here." When many people with moderate hardware can not realize these games anymore (at least without additional installation of old MAME versions in different directories) this also increases their risk of getting forgotten (even though they stay technically preserved). So please add an alternative simpler sound mode with less CPU consumption.

In case it really hasn’t dawned on you, what you think doesn’t matter. Your analogy is stupid, too. We aren’t going to add samples back, because it would complicate the code and add a maintenance/testing burden by having two implementations. We’re already short on developers. Really, you’re as bad as the spyhunter guy, posting long-winded rants about stuff you already know the answers to. The only thing you might succeed in doing is pushing people away from this forum.
Posted By: Bletch Re: Spy Hunter arcade bad sound emulation - 11/17/21 11:59 AM
There is nothing fundamentally wrong with either:
  • An emulator sacrificing accuracy for performance
  • An emulator sacrificing performance for accuracy


That said, MAME is a huge project, and there needs to be some organizing principles. If MAME started trying to favor performance over accuracy (even on an optional basis), where would one stop? Favoring accuracy also has major advantages from the perspective of ensuring that the emulation of common hardware components are properly vetted and kept accurate.

If you don't like this, by all means fork MAME and re-add the sample emulation. MAME will continue to function as a documentation project and your fork will appease the people that want to run the games on cheaper hardware.
Posted By: hap Re: Spy Hunter arcade bad sound emulation - 11/17/21 12:25 PM
Co's posts are TLDR so I don't know the reason for the slow PC.*
When I was a broke student, I had a Pentium 100MHz back when Pentium 2 was out. I had an AMD K6 something back when AMD Athlon Thunderbird and the first Geforce was out. At least I had a Voodoo1 card so I could play some UltraHLE games.

I picked out emulators for their speed. Nesticle, Genecyst, older version of ZSNES, Callus instead of MAME for the CPS1 games, Raine instead of MAME for the Taito F3 games, etc.
If I was in your shoes, I'd get an older version of MAME, add the 'samples' games to that. Use a newer version of MAME for the other games. Accept that the reason the netlist emulation is slow for you is due to your old CPU.

*Ah I see, paranoia.
Wifi radiation harmful? -> disable it completely in device manager
laptop battery will explode? -> get one where battery can be removed, I have a laptop with Intel i5 and removed the battery (cause it's heavy weight and worn out anyway)
Posted By: Alegend45 Re: Spy Hunter arcade bad sound emulation - 11/17/21 04:06 PM
See, the problem is that you're using a 13-year-old CPU for MAME. Why not try something more recent? Even a $50 modern Athlon CPU would perform better.
Originally Posted by Alegend45
See, the problem is that you're using a 13-year-old CPU for MAME. Why not try something more recent? Even a $50 modern Athlon CPU would perform better.

If you'd actually read the thread rather than coming in to "me too" like a chihuahua, you'd already know why he hasn't.
Posted By: Alegend45 Re: Spy Hunter arcade bad sound emulation - 11/17/21 06:05 PM
I mean, recycling hardware that's over a decade old is one thing, but using that hardware for emulation is just straight up idiotic. Use it as a file or web server or something, not for running a type of software that's KNOWN to be incredibly demanding most of the time.
Originally Posted by hap
Wifi radiation harmful? -> disable it completely in device manager
laptop battery will explode? -> get one where battery can be removed, I have a laptop with Intel i5 and removed the battery (cause it's heavy weight and worn out anyway)
Modern hardware tends to be flattened to total unrepairability by having the case hermetically sealed by the glued screen etc. (see iFixIt examples of M$ Surface etc.), and their batteries are those glued-in flimsy foil bags those respond to any slightly rough handling or perforation with blazing inferno. The era of user-removable battery packs is long time gone in household grade notebooks.

And disabling wifi in device manager usually does only turn off the service, NOT the transmitter. You can still measure the pulsed microwaves output of the antenna. In some models it can help to disable it in UEFI, but even this is unsafe, since any online update by remote-maintenance through the manufacturer (Win10 updates and others) can turn it back on in the background, and also during power-on there tend to be wifi-pulses emitted even with wifi disabled. (E.g. also most smart TVs can not turn off the transmitter at all from user-accesible menus.) Such features are intentional to permit manufacturers (and the national intelligence services they are legally required to obey to) to do remote firmware updates of crashed hardware by power cycling, and permit intelligence services to remote-access computers by provoking a power fail (e.g. of the house or street) to make them reboot and so quickly reply with wireless access through their Intel/AMD Management Engine firmware. This is implemented similar like the Roving Bug mode in mobile phones.
Okay folks, enough. This topic has run its course.
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