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Posted By: John Hood Boot Camp! - 04/05/06 08:47 PM
Well, I'll let Apple speak for itself ! wink
Posted By: Nathan Strum Re: Boot Camp! - 04/05/06 09:56 PM
I guess they were just a little too late to win the $13,854 . wink
Posted By: Carbon Re: Boot Camp! - 04/05/06 10:15 PM
That's completely unbelievable.

I'm writing this as I'm downloading the Boot Camp beta, but I just can't believe it.

I will probably still not believe it when Windows is running on my iMac smile
Posted By: Richard Bannister Re: Boot Camp! - 04/05/06 11:21 PM
I'm installing it right now...
Posted By: Arnoud Re: Boot Camp! - 04/06/06 01:15 AM
I have installed it a few minutes ago, and it works fine... Even my 23" cinema display works in resolutions other than the native 1920x1200 (well, boxed in the centre of the screen, but the XOM.EFI/www.onmac.net solution would freak out and simply go out sync...)...
Posted By: vitaflo Re: Boot Camp! - 04/06/06 01:44 AM
I love this. Especially for games (not emus, but PC games, which is about the only reason to use Windows, imo).

Need more impressions! smile

BTW, anyone watching Apple's stock price? It's up almost 9.5% today. Has been going up over 1% per hour the entire day. eek
Posted By: Marchalis Re: Boot Camp! - 04/06/06 03:35 AM
Details guys, details!!!

Let us know how it turns out!!


One of my long time classmates is a member of Apple's OS programmer team. He NEVER mentioned anything about this!! Only hint he gave when he visited recently was that very soon the Mini's will all be Intel based. Couldn't get anything else much out of him though...
Posted By: Martin Re: Boot Camp! - 04/06/06 04:54 AM
It works exactly as advertised - very slick too smile

I'm not a fan of the whole dual boot concept in the slightest but there's a couple of things that i could use it for, so seeing as you can back it all back out using the same boot camp software, i figured i could spare 20GB to see how it goes!

Nothing to really benchmark it against yet since all i do in Windows is old legacy stuff these days.

Maybe i'll install X Beyond the frontier? Should eat that for breakfast i guess.

Nice one Apple (i think!).

Now all i'm waiting for is VMWare to boot the partition without rebooting. Then it'll be REALLY cool.
Posted By: Martin Re: Boot Camp! - 04/06/06 04:57 AM
Oh, DEFINATELY worth mentioning that i'd have been out of luck had it not been for having a windows laptop with a CD burner kicking about!

The volume license MSDN DVD that i normally use for this kind of thing presents you with a boot menu asking you which version of Windows you wish to install from the DVD. When i tried to select XP SP2 as per the instructions from Apple i couldn't since the keyboard doesn't work at that stage - doh!

Had to go upstairs burn the ISO of the non-volume license CD and install from that. No biggie, but it did throw me for a little while.
Posted By: John Hood Re: Boot Camp! - 04/06/06 05:53 AM
Anyway else read Brad's latest blog post ?
Posted By: Vas Crabb Re: Boot Camp! - 04/06/06 08:41 AM
I don't see this as anything but trouble. There is now a very big new disincentive for developers considering releasing a product for OS X. Why bother when the Mac users can boot Windows, anyway?
Posted By: Bakasama Re: Boot Camp! - 04/06/06 09:08 AM
uh, last time I checked XP doesn't have a force quit that works as well as the Mac force quit.
Posted By: Brad Oliver Re: Boot Camp! - 04/06/06 09:08 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Vas Crabb:
I don't see this as anything but trouble. There is now a very big new disincentive for developers considering releasing a product for OS X. Why bother when the Mac users can boot Windows, anyway?
Well, it's trouble for a certain subset, sure. But I don't think it's trouble in general. OSX definitely has "buzz" going for it right now among the geek crowd. There are a lot of "Mac curious" developers out there who are starting to look at Mac development because of this. If you've got one or two major apps at your company, I think it'll provide you with a strong temptation to do a Mac version as an experiment and see how it goes. As the Mac marketshare cilmbs (and it seems that this is fairly certain now), the clamor for Mac-native software will only grow.
Posted By: jonceramame Re: Boot Camp! - 04/06/06 09:30 AM
Vas, I don't see it as a development problem. I agree with Brad. VPC already "does" put Windows on Mac for weird things (as does the super cheap price of Windows machines. For $400-500 today, you can just have a Windows box to set next to your $1,500 mac which you would have paid $180 for VPC on...) Windows simply is too expensive to buy in a separate license off the shelf for most people.

So, while us geeks will be installing dual boots ASAP, the general public won't be. I work with them. They're scared to jump to Mac because they'll leave Windows behind. But all anyone I know who's non-geeky actually does on their computer is 1. Internet 2. mp3's 3. Photos and 4. Games. (Oh, and maybe 5 quicken.) Mac has all of that already in the basic bundle. People will start using MacOSX who buy it for a Windows compatible comfort machine, and won't even both to install windows. They'll transfer over their mp3's and photos and be done. (Trust me, I've seen how the people I work with "upgrade" their windows machines...)

The gamers will switch to Windows to play commercial games, and that will be about it. Brad's niche aside, most gamers seem to be going the console route anyway, and that market's fragmented all to hell itself. As games become more and more studio productions, I think Brad's blog predictions being true.

Anyway, when the "installed base" numbers for MacOSX hit 10% or 15% (Yeah, I'm still an AAPL dreamer somewhere in the back of my brain, crappy video board iBook and all!), developers won't cough and sputter anymore...

Jon
Posted By: smf Re: Boot Camp! - 04/06/06 01:13 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by jonceramame:
But all anyone I know who's non-geeky actually does on their computer is 1. Internet 2. mp3's 3. Photos and 4. Games. (Oh, and maybe 5 quicken.) Mac has all of that already in the basic bundle. People will start using MacOSX who buy it for a Windows compatible comfort machine, and won't even both to install windows. They'll transfer over their mp3's and photos and be done. (Trust me, I've seen how the people I work with "upgrade" their windows machines...)
But are those the users that would buy brad's games anyway? I had OS/2 v2 & DOS/Win3.1. I switched the Win 3.1 to Win 95 beta, I don't think OS/2 survived the reformat to install Win 95 final.

It's going to be applications that keep the users in MacOS X. They are going to have to be cost effective and have the features the users need & you can't rely on them waiting for too long. Once people get used to booting into one OS it's hard to get them to switch. I killed OS/2 because I pretty had no reason to wait for it to boot up anymore.

It doesn't necessarily hurt apple in the short term, they get alot of money for someone to run windows. This could easily hurt the developer community. I guess they decided to support it in the end because end users were hacking it anyway.

smf
Posted By: Brad Oliver Re: Boot Camp! - 04/06/06 01:44 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by smf:
Quote:
Originally posted by jonceramame:
[b]But all anyone I know who's non-geeky actually does on their computer is 1. Internet 2. mp3's 3. Photos and 4. Games. (Oh, and maybe 5 quicken.) Mac has all of that already in the basic bundle. People will start using MacOSX who buy it for a Windows compatible comfort machine, and won't even both to install windows. They'll transfer over their mp3's and photos and be done. (Trust me, I've seen how the people I work with "upgrade" their windows machines...)
But are those the users that would buy brad's games anyway?[/b]
If you're a 12 year old kid whose friends live and breathe CounterStrike and your parents have an Intel Mac, how long do you suppose it would be before that Mac is dual-booting to shut the kid up? Never underestimate the power of a spoiled brat. wink
Posted By: Integra Re: Boot Camp! - 04/06/06 01:50 PM
*rofl* Sorry, I just had to post this.

Has anyone read the Tech. Info. Library Article?

"Important: Apple does not provide technical phone support for ... Windows XP."

Yes, I know ... that's not exactly how it reads, but I just couldn't resist using the ellipsis!

In all seriousness, I do have a question. Is this really installable without erasing or formatting the drive? Or, does the drive need to be erased or formatted to create the Windows XP partition? I've always thought that to create a partition, it has to be done after formatting the disk.

In advance, thank you.
Posted By: Vas Crabb Re: Boot Camp! - 04/06/06 01:53 PM
You can shrink the HFS+ partition without re-formatting.
Posted By: MAMEBase Re: Boot Camp! - 04/06/06 06:13 PM
Okay... Silly question... Is there an easy way to transfer documents between enviroments?
Posted By: Vas Crabb Re: Boot Camp! - 04/06/06 06:27 PM
Make the XP partition smaller than 32GB and format it as FAT32. Then OS X will be able to read and write to it. If you use NTFS, OS X can read but not write to it.
Posted By: Nathan Strum Re: Boot Camp! - 04/06/06 07:15 PM
I think this is a good move for Apple, and it's going to sell more Macs for them. I ran into two examples at work yesterday.

First, we're looking into adding a new computer lab for running Maya, and the plan to this point has been to get PCs. One of the reasons for this is that by the time we can purchase them, the G5s will be gone from Apple's line-up, and Autodesk hasn't announced a Universal version of Maya yet (if ever). Now, this gives us an opportunity to get Macs, and still run Maya on them whether or not a Universal version is released. So there's a potential of 30+ Macs right there that wouldn't have been purchased otherwise.

Second, one of my co-workers is a long-time Windows user, and is one of the only people in my department with a PC on her desk (we're almost completely Mac-based). But now, she wants to get an Intel MacBook because she can still run Windows most of the time, but also start learning OS X and be able to integrate with what we're doing on Macs.

Good for Mac gaming? I don't know. I almost never buy Mac games anyway (sorry Brad), but that's because when I buy games, I buy them for my PS2. Certainly, I think that if it's easy to install Windows, if Windows runs well, if Mac users can stomach running Windows, and the Mac port of a new game is nine months down the road, then yes - this could hurt some sales of Mac games. But I think most Mac users who are hard-core gamers already own a PC or console and do most of their gaming there anyway. So if anything, this may sell more Macs to those gamers who just buy PCs for gaming machines, which is a good thing.

What I think is really needed from the Mac gaming community is more original games for the Mac. (Yes... I'm still pining for an OS X version of Battle-Girl.) Then as the Mac market grows (and I think it will), there will be games compelling enough for users to boot into OS X and stay there awhile.

The other thing to remember here though, is that right now, only a very small percentage of Mac users have Intel Macs. So there's time to see the effects of this transition, and plan accordingly. It's not going to be all-Intels overnight.
Posted By: smf Re: Boot Camp! - 04/06/06 11:34 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Brad Oliver:
Quote:
Originally posted by smf:
But are those the users that would buy brad's games anyway?
If you're a 12 year old kid whose friends live and breathe CounterStrike and your parents have an Intel Mac, how long do you suppose it would be before that Mac is dual-booting to shut the kid up? Never underestimate the power of a spoiled brat. wink [/QB]
a) The computer would probably stay in windows all the time ( especially for games ).

b) I don't believe they would have bought an intel mac in the first place ( never underestimate the power of saving $'s ).

I still think it was a bad idea for anyone to ever do it, it's not even clever as it's just a slightly non-standard pc in a nice case.

I'm not buying any new hardware until conroe & vista are out of the door.

smf
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Boot Camp! - 04/06/06 11:51 PM
The full-size Mactels will probably be Conroe (it makes no sense to introduce them based on any of the Netburst hangovers currently out). Be interesting to see if Apple gets that first too like they did the Core Duo.
Posted By: Marchalis Re: Boot Camp! - 04/06/06 11:56 PM
Fast on the heels of Bootcamp comes this similar program . This one comes at a small cost but you don't have to re-boot to switch between machine Os's
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Boot Camp! - 04/07/06 12:05 AM
It doesn't support OSX though, and you can download VMWare for free now. (I think MS themselves have a similar free PC-on-PC virtualizer coming out for free, but I don't recall the details).
Posted By: Marchalis Re: Boot Camp! - 04/07/06 12:20 AM
And of course, with widows, sorry, windows operating on our Macs, here\'s what else we have to look forward to .
Looks like we gotta take the bad with the bad if we want to live in both centuries.
Posted By: vitaflo Re: Boot Camp! - 04/07/06 01:10 AM
If anyone wants to know how WinXP on iMacs runs Half Life 2, check out this video. It's pretty impressive.

http://www.cabel.name/2006/04/boot-camp-first-look-half-life-2-video.html
Posted By: Martin Re: Boot Camp! - 04/07/06 02:51 AM
Holy cow - that looks impressive!!!
Posted By: seanraaron Re: Boot Camp! - 04/07/06 03:11 AM
I'm not a "hardcore" gamer, so dual booting has little interest for me (actually Intel-based Macs have little interest for me until Rosetta runs PPC games as well as my 1.3GHz G4 does natively). What I think would be a fatal error would be to build in a Windows emulator that enabled Windows applications to run under OS X at native speeds -- now _that_ I think would kill native OS X development.
Posted By: Brad Oliver Re: Boot Camp! - 04/07/06 03:40 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Marchalis:
Fast on the heels of Bootcamp comes this similar program . This one comes at a small cost but you don't have to re-boot to switch between machine Os's
Yeah, I just tried it. The biggest limitation (aside from no native 3D hardware) is that it only uses virtual disk files. You can't yet read to or write from your hard drives, just the virtual drives you create.
Posted By: Brad Oliver Re: Boot Camp! - 04/07/06 03:44 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by R. Belmont:
It doesn't support OSX though, and you can download VMWare for free now.
I think you have that backwards...? Parallels supports OSX (it has an OSX client), VMWare does not, at least that I can see. Unless you're talking about support as being able to run OSX inside the virtual machine - that's probably of less interest to Mac users at the moment. wink
Posted By: Martin Re: Boot Camp! - 04/07/06 03:59 AM
Following through the links on the Parallel product, somewhere along the line i hit a page that talked about VMWare and it quoted the lady at VMWare as saying they're not ready for public release yet but they have it running in the labs on OSX now smile

At the end of the day, when the dust settles i'm pretty damn sure i'll blow the windows partition away, sit back and think "wow, that consumed a lot of evenings", but hey, it's fun for a while.

I'm about to load up my X Beyond The Frontier CD (and XTension) that's been in the cupboard since sometime in 2000 (wow, has it really been that long!) and have some fun.
Posted By: foxglove Re: Boot Camp! - 04/07/06 10:19 AM
Wow, after 6 years of owning a G4 I dove in and bought a used Powermac G5 (for really cheap) Monday to hold me over until Leopard and Adobe CS3 come out next year. And with this big news a day later I almost wonder if i should have waited till August annoucements.

I'm really impressed at what Boot Camp can do and excited to see it as a final product in Leopard. I was a former PC user and I have absolutely no intention of going back to Windows but it would be a handy thing to have to boot up a game I can't get on mac, or an emulator or a special piece of software. Beats having 3 computers in my apartment.
Posted By: Godozo Re: Boot Camp! - 04/07/06 11:26 AM
I can see a few things I could use in Windoze (PinMame, something my brother wants me to try out, etc) but I can't exactly see doing umpteen different things on the Windoze side of the Mac. Still, I may want one of these things, just because I love pinball (and they don't make the machines anymore, at least as many as they used to...)
Posted By: Martin Re: Boot Camp! - 04/07/06 03:47 PM
By the way, i had THREE blue screen crashes last night! Haven't seen one of them for ages and ages.
Posted By: seanraaron Re: Boot Camp! - 04/08/06 02:05 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Godozo:
Still, I may want one of these things, just because I love pinball
Have you heard of LIttlewing? Japanese developer who just does pinballs for Mac and PC. Monster Fair is a really good one and apparently another is under development. Well worth the shareware price.
Posted By: Nathan Strum Re: Boot Camp! - 04/08/06 02:56 AM
Littlewing's stuff is awesome. I've been a big fan of Crystal Caliburn for many years.
Posted By: mystereo Re: Boot Camp! - 04/08/06 03:33 AM
Could someone who has installed Boot Camp please try to install Visual Pinball and VPinMAME and tell us how well it runs a few tables?
Thanks.
Posted By: jonceramame Re: Boot Camp! - 04/08/06 08:55 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Martin:
By the way, i had THREE blue screen crashes last night! Haven't seen one of them for ages and ages.
Wow, then the implementation is apparently perfect! Good job, Apple! wink

pinmame! Yes...

When a $350 dual boot mini is available in ~2 years, I think I'll be in.

Just call me... cheap and patient...
Posted By: Brad Oliver Re: Boot Camp! - 04/08/06 12:20 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by jonceramame:
Quote:
Originally posted by Martin:
[b] By the way, i had THREE blue screen crashes last night! Haven't seen one of them for ages and ages.
Wow, then the implementation is apparently perfect! Good job, Apple! wink [/b]
A blue screen in Windows nowadays typically indicates a problem with kernel-level drivers. Odds are it is, in fact, Apple's fault by virtue of some beta Apple drivers that get installed. Oh, irony.
Posted By: Martin Re: Boot Camp! - 04/08/06 05:33 PM
Well, to be fair, one of the instances was my own fault.

1. Go to "My Computer"
2. "Ooo look, i wander what that USB video device is"
3. Click
4. BSOD
5. "Doh!, that'll be the iSight that Apple specifically says doesn't work then!!"

I kind of assumed when they said it doesn't work that it would not be recognised though, not that it would cause things to blue screen.

Other times were video driver related i _THINK_.

Yep, i'm guessing beta driver issues.

Martin.
PS: The novelty has already worn off smile
Posted By: Fava Re: Boot Camp! - 04/09/06 01:59 AM
At work i've try Guild Wars and Fear on the iMac 20" standard: the first go very good, the second give 30/40 fps, 15/20 fps on some schemes with video settings on 1100xdon'trememberwhat...

Parallels Workstation go very fast but i don't found time for install any games....
Posted By: FullMetal Neko Re: Boot Camp! - 04/11/06 06:55 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Vas Crabb:
I don't see this as anything but trouble. There is now a very big new disincentive for developers considering releasing a product for OS X. Why bother when the Mac users can boot Windows, anyway?
Honestly enough... if it is easy enough to just have it run windows on the machine natively, it should be equally easy to program ports that work on windows AND mac. The only problem is that it wont, in that case, work on PowerPC macs, only universal. Thats the only thing that is really the issue. If Publishers decided to go to Universal ONLY, it would be easy to have OSX and Win versions of everything. Just it would completely alienate a good portion of the Mac Users that haven't upgraded yet. (Like me.)
Posted By: Vas Crabb Re: Boot Camp! - 04/11/06 07:53 AM
That's rubbish. CPU architecture is one of the smallest hurdles when porting from Windows to Mac OS X. Look at all the differences in important APIs (UI, file system, network). CPU architecture is often just a recompile away.
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Boot Camp! - 04/11/06 08:03 AM
Yeah. As something of a portability expert, endianness is (usually) easy. Or put another way: Windows to Mac is way harder than Mactel to PPC (or vice-versa).
Posted By: Brad Oliver Re: Boot Camp! - 04/13/06 07:12 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Vas Crabb:
That's rubbish. CPU architecture is one of the smallest hurdles when porting from Windows to Mac OS X.
Maybe if the app was written correctly in the first place, yes. But many - in fact I'd say most - PC games use binary data, and make *absolutely* no account for endianness. I'd estimate that a good 30% of our time is spend on endian issues during the lifetime of a port on average. Worse are the games that try to account for endian issues but do it all wrong.

Similarly, we have to fight with 1-byte (Win32, Mac x86) vs. 4-byte (Mac PPC) bools. There's also issues with 2/4 byte wchars, but those are generally not as big a time-sink.
Posted By: Vas Crabb Re: Boot Camp! - 04/13/06 08:05 AM
Hehe, I've had some trouble like that here at work, porting from Win32/x86 to Solaris/SPARC and Mac/PPC. The code that was supposed to flip host-to-network and vice versa always flipped, and I had to go and put in macros conditionalise it all.

SMP-safe atomic operations got me as well. That had to be completely re-implemented. The different approaches on different CPUs made some of that interesting (x86 lock prefix vs PPC lwarx/stwcx.).

But that wasn't anywhere near as much work as porting things like network lookups, IPC, multithreading, etc.
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