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Okay, so I'm just curious...

Are we likely to see a update to MacMAME anytime soon?

(Yes, I'm well aware of other varients of MAME for the Mac...)

MacMAME had a simplicity, as well as other coolness factors that I miss, and if memory serves, there were some nifty ideas on the horizon for my favorite app as well...

I'm not looking for a timeline, but I would like to know if a new release is in the works.
Yeah, I do miss the simplicity of the whole package. MacMAME was very handy for getting screenshots that I used to references for making sprites for some homebrew games. MAME OS X is just simply to play games with some very cool effects. Not bad in of itself but not ideal for sprite ripping.
I'd like to see a return of MacMAME as well. But I know Brad is extremely busy. There are all sorts of projects I've never been able to get around to either.

Which reminds me, MAMEBase... I still have your laserdiscs. Can you e-mail me when you get the chance?
How exactly was MacMAME more useful for sprite ripping? If anything, the modern derivatives with MNG recording would seem more useful for that stuff, but I'm the guy who vomits every time I see an animated SF2 character in a signature.
How? MacMAME allows me to pause the game, move frame by frame with two key, and take a shot. I just take those pics and rip the sprites I need in Photoshop. It allows to use the cheats so I get to the particular animation or background without hassle of playing a game to get to a certain part of a game.

MAME OS X doesn't take screenshots nor have any useable cheats features.

I can't say anything about SDLMAME since I still have a great deal trouble trying to getting it to work in the first place.

MNGs? I suppose I can use that but don't you think using that for a two or four frame animation is bit too much?
SDLMAME also lets you pause, frame advance, and take shots. Those are core features, and if MAME OS X doesn't have them hooked up it's to Dave's eternal shame ;-)

If you have trouble with SDLMAME, use a frontend like MacMAMEInfoX.
I'm sure I deserve plenty of shame, but MAME OS X most definitely has pause and screen shots. Didn't know core MAME did frame advance. If it's one of the standard keys, it probably works. Try it. smile

A couple of general comments. Complaining that MAME OS X doesn't do this or that on the *MacMAME* forum is hardly a good way to let the right people know about the problem. MAME OS X is far from perfect, but it pretty much does everything *I* want MAME to do. This means I don't test every edge case. So if you find something wrong, by all means report it. Even if I don't get to it right way, I'll at least put it on the todo list. Andy maybe even someone else will get to it before I do.

Second, resurrecting MacMAME is going to be a *lot* of work. The core has changed so much that it's far from a trivial task. In fact, I'd say it's just not worth it. That work would, in my opinion, be better directed at improving MAME OS X. I did look at reviving MacMAME before starting out on my own, but I felt using newer OS X technologies would be worth the effort of re-writing. And last week at WWDC, I was somewhat vindicated in this decision. In case anyone missed it, 64-bit Carbon is dead. It's not happening. The way forward on OS X is Cocoa. 64-bit should produce a nice speed improvement, when we can take advantage of it.

-Dave
Wow! I actually did miss that, and it's huge - assuming Leopard is the end of the line for 32-bit (Vista is, and MS isn't normally that forward-looking) that means rebuilding MacMAME shifts from "pretty undesirable" to "total waste".
Yeah, that was a big bombshell at the Stevenote. At last year's WWDC, they said 64-bit Carbon would be in Leopard. This year, they backpeddled and nixed it. There's still speculation on what exactly "Carbon" encompasses. Most likely, it's just the UI side of things. Here's a nice summary from all the bits inferred from carbon-dev:

http://www.carbondev.com/site/?page=64-bit+Carbon

-Dave
I don't understand this move by Apple (especially as Carbon 64 seems to be essentially ready) and would like to know what Adobe, Microsoft etc. (or those software publishers that have written their software using Carbon) think of it.

BTW, Dave, is this you on the left?

So you are famous, after all smile
When I first heard about this, I thought it was a shot across the bow aimed right at Adobe Photoshop. But then, someone found this post from an Adobe engineer saying that 64-bit Photoshop basically runs 5% slower than 32-bit. That seems rather odd, but I guess Adobe doesn't care much about 64-bit. And 32-bit Carbon is still supported. Heck, even the "new" Finder is Carbon. But still, the message from Apple is clear: Cocoa is the way forward.

Oh, and yeah that is me. blush That's an awesome pic. It looks like Wolf and I are gonna start fighting or something. Really, Wolf and I are good friends. wink

-Dave
Compilers for x86-64 are still fairly immature, so I wouldn't be surprised if there are situations where 64-bit is slower. In MAME it's largely a wash right now, but 64-bit DRCs should in theory run much faster for the MIPS-based games than 32-bit.
Originally Posted By R. Belmont
Wow! I actually did miss that, and it's huge - assuming Leopard is the end of the line for 32-bit (Vista is, and MS isn't normally that forward-looking) that means rebuilding MacMAME shifts from "pretty undesirable" to "total waste".


More to the point, it obsoletes just about all the code I've ever written. Bah humbug, I say.
Yeah, it just seems that extra registers in x86-64 would be very useful. I guess the caches become less effective in 64-bit, though, as well.

-Dave
Hey, there's no roller coaster like developing for Apple hardware - that was even true in the late 80s :-)
Well, maybe it's time for me to stop paying for the macmame.net domain name. Seems kind of pointless having the website now.
Originally Posted By Richard Bannister
More to the point, it obsoletes just about all the code I've ever written. Bah humbug, I say.


I doubt you're the only one who feels scrooged, but I don't quite think it's that bad. 32-bit Carbon code will still run just fine on 64-bit machines on 10.5. Finder is still Carbon, and it appears that the only 32-bit app shipping on Leopard is Xcode. I can't even imagine Apple pulling Carbon in 10.6. My guess is 10.7, which would put it 3-4 years away, at Apple's current pace. But, I guess stranger things have happened.

And once Apple does pull it, someone will just emulate it, anyway. Nothing ever dies with emulation. wink

-Dave
Cocoa just has two many damn square brackets. That is all.
Yeah, I was sort of hoping if they were going to effectively kill Carbon that they'd also introduce normal C/C++ bindings for Cocoa. NeXT failed guys, get over it.
Ah I do remember that frame advance in MAME was pause first then hold SHIFT and advance by hitting the ESC key. I gotta try that in MAME OS X. I know a lot users do want a more user friendly interface. I just don't see that happening in the near future.
I dunno, it sounds like bbum's adding a real live game selection list, which would help the user friendliness a lot.
Just checked the Windows docs, and frame advance is SHIFT-P while paused. It works in MAME OS X, too.

-Dave
Quite. I've got no desire to learn Objective-C.
Wow...

I really didn't mean to open a can of worms here...

I know that an update to MacMAME is no trivial task, but I was just wondering if the project was still alive, and looking for a more or less 'official' word.

Anyone?
Only Brad has the official word and he ain't talking. But now that the death of Carbon has been announced it'd be wasted effort on his part.
I asked Brad about it, and the official word is, "I don't know." wink

He said he's keeping the option open to update it, and does think about it, but has no immediate plans.

So at this point, MacMAME is not dead. It's just not updated, either.
It's on sebatical, perhaps? smile

-Dave
Given the sheer amount of core changes since it was last updated it would be completely new code at this point. So Nathan can continue to pine for the fjords, we'll advance MAME on OS X in the meantime wink
I can wait. There's nothing terribly compelling about any recent releases of MAME anyway.

Although I do look forward to the colors in the Astrocade driver getting fixed. wink
Yeah, the discrete sound and video for Radarscope and Donkey Kong is a total snooze for retrohounds, I gotta say wink
Originally Posted By Nathan Strum
I asked Brad about it, and the official word is, "I don't know." wink
He said he's keeping the option open to update it, and does think about it, but has no immediate plans.So at this point, MacMAME is not dead. It's just not updated, either.

I can only imagine his new job at apple working on the OpenGL team is going to take up all of his free time. http://www.brad-oliver.com:8081/~boliver/blog/archives/000932.html I would also hope that any new developers to the MAME scene on the mac would focus their efforts on Mame OS X, SDLMame, or a better frontend for all our emulators.
I just wonder if this means we'll have MAME for iPhone smile
You took the words right out of my mouth, Richard wink
My understanding is the iPhone has 3 ARM CPUs, none of them especially fast (hence the high battery life). And likely one's dedicated to the GSM/EDGE stuff. So I wouldn't hold my breath smile

I agree with him 100% regarding working at Apple: it's totally cool except for the "living in the Valley" part. I'm sure he'll cope though :-)
Originally Posted By agallisa
I can only imagine his new job at apple working on the OpenGL team is going to take up all of his free time.

Incorrect

Moving from Aspyr to Apple is just step 1 of his super-secret plan to release future MacMAME updates.

Best wishes for him for his new job !

Now he only needs to convince Steve to add MacMAME by default on OSX blush
Ah! I haven't been here in a while so I didn't see this thread. But this does explain the sudden surge of e-mail about this topic. wink

Here's my take: I think MAME OS X is great, and I gather it's only going to get better. I'm more than happy to help Dave out with this as needed, and in fact we've talked about it some in the past day. I have to confess I haven't yet run MAME OS X or seen what it does aside from glancing at the webpage (not to mention my ROMs are horribly out of date) so I don't know a whole lot about it.

As for MacMAME, well it's my baby and it's hard to kiss it goodbye after 10 years so I'll likely never say "it's dead." In fact, I continually entertain the notion of reviving it. I've kept personal builds going for a while now and I got close to releasing an update for the 10-year mark but I just can't seem to scrape together the time to polish it off. I had some thoughts about doing that once I relocate to Cupertino since I'll be awash in free time for a while, but there's no strong motivation. MacMAME's biggest plus is the integrated front-end, but it's way too "Classic" MacOS nowadays. wink

From a development standpoint, I'm not entirely convinced that MAME is best served by Cocoa, particularly with the event-loop inversion but I could be very wrong and I don't want to get into a Carbon/Cocoa flamewar, particularly since Apple has already delivered a few critical knife wounds at this latest WWDC that make the topic mostly moot.

I'd like to do some performance metrics pitting MacMAME against the Cocoa core in MAME OS X and to experiment a bit privately, but that's probably about as far as it'll ever go. Carbon's ambiguous future of course really makes any public release of MacMAME doubtful, because a switch to Cocoa in MacMAME would be wasted effort in light of MAME OS X. So it's almost a 95% certainty that it won't see any future updates. In fact I'm happy about the prospect of helping out on MAME OS X where I can and not having the burden of managing the release. I always found that very stressful because I had a compulsion to be very hands-on in the forums immediately following each release tracking support issues.

So enjoy MAME OS X and use it with my best wishes. smile If you have strong opinions about my continuing to do something on MacMAME, feel free to comment. If it does go forward at all, my preference would be to make it an unsupported "secondary" MAME app on the Mac with MAME OS X being the standard bearer and I would of course alter the webpages and MacMAME docs to mention that - if they ever get updated again at all. wink
Beeing an owner of a trusty but ageing G4, I can safely state that, more than the integrated frontend, MacMame's speed will be missed here!

A lot of drivers that are still doing well under MacMame are quite unplayable on my Mac, I'd say that overall Mame Os X is at least 20/30% slower. I guess it's time for me to move on smile

Anyway, Brad & Dave, thanks for everything!
I just checked in to start off the obligatory "MacMAME on iPhone" topic... but this topic seems much cooler.

I'd love to take this opportunity to thank Brad for all of his work on MacMAME. It opened my eyes to the world of emulation and filled my nostalgic arcade jones time and time again. Thank you.

And congrats on working for the "mothership". I think we all have that desire to a certain degree, but few of us get to realize it. Good luck.
Well I just signed up to chime in on this particular topic..
Hopefully Brad and all are still reading hehe.

I for one would love to see MacMAME updated. Its just what Ive gotten used to and well the front end is the best.
I do have SDLMame and MAME OS X and they work great but its the UI actually that keeps me wanting to go back to MacMAME.

Ive never really noticed a great deal of performance difference between the three its really just the frontends that didnt feel as smooth as MacMAME's.
Brad, if youre helping out Dave, perhaps we can get that kickass filebrowser/tabbed style front end integrated into MAME OS X?? Thats the one thing Id really really love to see in one of the newer emulators, if its gonna be MAME OS X, then so be it.

That all said let me add my thanks to ALL the devs out there that have put all the hard work in and given us OS X emus!
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