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Posted By: Richard Bannister Other interesting formats? - 03/03/05 04:47 AM
Folks,

Those following the other threads here will know that YM is now supported in the Audio Overload core. Anyone have any other chip tune formats (preferably with both documentation and sample files) that they'd like to see implemented?

Important note - I am not interested in implementing PSF, PSF2, or USF. So please don't ask about these. MOD/other tracker formats fall beyond the range of what I want to achieve with Audio Overload.

Thanks smile

Richard
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Other interesting formats? - 03/03/05 05:15 AM
QSF would be easy to do, even though it's quite possibly the world's stupidest format (you're better off using M1 or Nebula Jukebox for those games =)
Posted By: Lillymon Re: Other interesting formats? - 03/03/05 02:32 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by R. Belmont:
QSF would be easy to do, even though it's quite possibly the world's stupidest format (you're better off using M1 or Nebula Jukebox for those games =)
Main use for me is that I can use Highly Quixotic as a Winamp plugin, and add QSound games to my rather formidable playlist.

Although some should probably be pruned, my current main playlist has 1011 tracks in it. A game music track for every occasion.
Posted By: Richard Bannister Re: Other interesting formats? - 03/03/05 03:15 PM
There are just under 6,700 files on my iPod right now, though a fair number of those are chapters of audio books smile
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Other interesting formats? - 03/03/05 09:38 PM
I export to WAV from M1 and then MP3 compress stuff I want in my playlist smile
Posted By: Sixtoe Re: Other interesting formats? - 03/04/05 12:43 AM
Or snaffle it from me...
Posted By: Computolio Re: Other interesting formats? - 03/05/05 12:50 AM
Is .MDX support possible? Also, what about support for the remaining NSF sound chip variants?
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Other interesting formats? - 03/05/05 12:55 AM
MDX is high on my list of things I'd like to see supported, but the only source I've found is both hideous (ok, that's expected in AO at this point wink and GPL'ed. It's a simple enough format that we could probably "Chinese Wall" it - I could write a text description from the code and Richard would implement it, but we'll see.
Posted By: Richard Bannister Re: Other interesting formats? - 03/05/05 03:55 AM
I'll certainly implement it if someone points me to or writes documentation smile
Posted By: Richard Bannister Re: Other interesting formats? - 03/05/05 03:56 AM
...I should have said, as for the other NSF sound chips, I'm not sure; Audio Overload uses a NSF decoder by Fx3 (which has since been discontinued). At some point it'll be replaced, but honestly it's not a priority (it's not like many NSFs are affected).
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Other interesting formats? - 03/05/05 09:53 AM
Hmm, actually I think I've got the necessary MDX components without bad licensing. I'll attempt to make it work ;-)
Posted By: Richard Bannister Re: Other interesting formats? - 03/05/05 01:02 PM
Go for it smile
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Other interesting formats? - 03/06/05 12:03 AM
Got the FM part working, now adding the .PDX loader for the ADPCM...done. It's fully alive, and I've sent Richard the changes.

Odd, the MDX pack for the X68k port of Xexex doesn't include 'Crystal Clear', which is that game's trademark song. I wonder if the rip's incomplete or the port was smile
Posted By: Richard Bannister Re: Other interesting formats? - 03/06/05 01:50 AM
Not working on the Mac side right now due to possible endian issues; I'm chasing that up at the minute.
Posted By: Richard Bannister Re: Other interesting formats? - 03/06/05 01:57 AM
Found it. Uninitialised variable problem in opm.h, line 1340; res is never set and the timer doesn't happen on the Mac. I don't hear any ADPCM though, so I'm gonna check that now.
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Other interesting formats? - 03/06/05 02:06 AM
D'oh. That's what I get for making it compile, sleeping 8 hours, then making it work - missing an ASM bit.

Probably an issue with finding/loading the .pdx if ADPCM's not playing.
Posted By: Richard Bannister Re: Other interesting formats? - 03/06/05 02:16 AM
Yup, it was. All good now. I'll drop you my patched version in a few minutes when I've tweaked a little more.
Posted By: Richard Bannister Re: Other interesting formats? - 03/06/05 02:25 AM
All merged. MDX support now in, thanks to R. Belmont. NEXT!!!
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Other interesting formats? - 03/06/05 02:45 AM
Road to madness: go to VORC.org, search on "KBMedia player", note the long list of tantalizing Japanese computer formats it plays, then try to find source, info, or even the songs themselves for any of them.
Posted By: Richard Bannister Re: Other interesting formats? - 03/06/05 03:05 AM
I've been mad for quite a while now, but not quite insane enough for that. Honestly, I think that beween MDX and KSS we probably have the two highest profile formats covered, though if someone can point me to info and sample songs for other formats I'll gladly delve into them.
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Other interesting formats? - 03/06/05 03:14 AM
Yeah, MDX and KSS definitely are the two biggies. Incidentally, a Western-friendly place to start collecting MDXes is http://xperiment.rainemu.com/x68music.html (files in ZIP instead of LZH, game names in English).
Posted By: Richard Bannister Re: Other interesting formats? - 03/06/05 03:42 AM
Excellent link; I just downloaded the lot! Should keep me occupied for the rest of the evening smile
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Other interesting formats? - 03/09/05 11:08 PM
Next target acquired: http://adlib.superfighter.com/

:-)
Posted By: Richard Bannister Re: Other interesting formats? - 03/10/05 06:51 AM
Are you working on it or will I give it a shot?
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Other interesting formats? - 03/10/05 06:52 AM
I'm on it - it's just a simple GYM-style register-log format for the YM3812.
Posted By: Richard Bannister Re: Other interesting formats? - 03/10/05 02:39 PM
Grand so.
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Other interesting formats? - 03/11/05 09:59 PM
Anyone else have any formats? Were there ever any "hobbyist" formats on the Mac, for instance?

Anyway, I just found a few thousand .ROL (AdLib "Visual Composer") files and a description of the format for download, but I think it's time for a new preview release first.

Incidentally, why not at least bog-standard 4 channel ProTracker MODs? We're shortchanging probably the most popular hobbyist music computer ever if we don't have at least basic tracker support, IMO.
Posted By: KEV Re: Other interesting formats? - 03/11/05 10:08 PM
Looks like you have found some interesting formats. Esp. looking forward to trying out some of the Taito rendidtions from the x68000.

Do .sid files count as falling beyond the range of AO? I have read that anything to do with the C64 is evil to emulate but there are a few classic pieces from that system.

Just in case:
spec docs
sidplay 2 homepage
some .sid files
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Other interesting formats? - 03/11/05 11:00 PM
I'm interested in .SID too, but sidplay2 is GPL, and people pretty much demand cycle and sample accurate C64 emulation nowadays, which would be hell on wheels to recreate from scratch.
Posted By: Richard Bannister Re: Other interesting formats? - 03/11/05 11:05 PM
My comments on PSF, PSF2, USF, and tracker formats are things that I have no personal interest in implementing, though if you want to do so then please be my guest. I know there are lot of people on the Mac side rabbiting on about PSF/USF, for example.

There were no hobbyist formats on Mac that I'm aware of. There are the drivers from the Bogas sound engine, but there's no documentation for that that I'm aware of, and all the versions I've ever seen were different.

And I agree, SID would be nice. I had a look at the stuff in MESS but it seems that's adapted from the GPL and as such is probably a violation as it is.
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Other interesting formats? - 03/11/05 11:12 PM
Ok. I can write a MOD driver roughly in my sleep - the only major hangup is that the magic ID string is located like 1024 bytes into the file instead of at the start like AO wants. Any hints on that?
Posted By: Richard Bannister Re: Other interesting formats? - 03/11/05 11:28 PM
AO recognises files within zip/RAR archives by their file extension rather than by a magic ID, and if memory serves me right it will accept individual files that way too. I'll check that later tonight and if not, I'll amend the code to do so.

The alternative would be to read the first 1K of a file instead of 4 bytes when identifying it, which could be done too, but I'm cautious about a solution like that for performance reasons.
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Other interesting formats? - 03/13/05 03:03 AM
Alright, MOD's in :-)
Posted By: Richard Bannister Re: Other interesting formats? - 03/13/05 03:52 AM
That was quick...
Posted By: Richard Bannister Re: Other interesting formats? - 03/13/05 05:26 AM
I reckon the next version of Audio Overload is gonna go down well, with fifteen supported formats now. The Mac version has had a performance and GUI overhaul too smile
Posted By: Computolio Re: Other interesting formats? - 03/14/05 10:24 AM
Thing is, MOD has an insane amount of related formats, some used for more complex music on the PC, others used as the music driver for various Amiga games. Stuff like Customplay and TFMX and so forth. As I understand it, Deliplayer (one of the few programs that supports all these formats) basically emulates just enough of an Amiga to get all these weird split formats to play. It looks like it could be pretty hard to implement.
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Other interesting formats? - 03/14/05 11:48 AM
Right, but 99% of music from the Amiga (and early PC demos) is in either standard ProTracker format or something closely related (AO supports the trivial 8 and 12 channel extensions used in e.g. Crystal Dream II on the PC). There's minority formats for everything (there are over a dozen for the AdLib alone), but AO's normally only interested in the biggies for each platform.

That said, I also have S3M working here now since it's arguably the most popular of the post-MOD tracker formats. (Also it brings my dream playlist that much closer since I can include all the Future Crew original soundtracks).
Posted By: Richard Bannister Re: Other interesting formats? - 03/14/05 03:10 PM
The first priority for me, post 2.0b4, will be to implement playlist support, which I am going to try to do in the core so all the platforms can use it.
Posted By: rpg Re: Other interesting formats? - 03/17/05 04:52 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Richard Bannister:
My comments on PSF, PSF2, USF, and tracker formats are things that I have no personal interest in implementing, though if you want to do so then please be my guest. I know there are lot of people on the Mac side rabbiting on about PSF/USF, for example.
I understand your hesitancy to include psf/minipsf support in AO, but if an already ported open source GNU sound core was available, how hard would it be to implement?

SexyPSF has been fully ported for os x and the sources that I have build an excellent cli app. Works with every psf/minipsf file I have thrown at it. Any chance of inclusion? I think usf is out of the question because it is so new, but psf support would be excellent. (I can provide the source.)

Some of tunes available for the psx platform really are great music. The playstation spu was able to accomplish some incredible things when you really think about it. Some of the synth is truly amazing.

Anyways, just thought I'd ask.
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Other interesting formats? - 03/17/05 05:11 AM
I wouldn't mind implementing PSF or even USF support, but I've been unable to get example source for either (Corlett's reference PSF player is closed source, SexyPSF's site is gone, and the download links are all broken on the 64th Note site).
Posted By: rpg Re: Other interesting formats? - 03/17/05 12:05 PM
Well hey, usf would be cool to!

I can send you the sexyPSF source. If you want to message me your preferred contact info I can send it over.
Posted By: Richard Bannister Re: Other interesting formats? - 03/17/05 12:36 PM
If you send it to me then I'll pass it on.
Posted By: Reznor007 Re: Other interesting formats? - 03/20/05 03:32 PM
The source for 64th note should be available here http://www.zophar.net/utilities/download/pj64playerv008.zip
Posted By: Richard Bannister Re: Other interesting formats? - 03/20/05 03:46 PM
I've passed on the sexyPSF sources as requested.
Posted By: Ryan Reilly Re: Other interesting formats? - 03/21/05 03:01 AM
YAY!!!!!
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Other interesting formats? - 03/21/05 03:49 AM
I think the guy who ported 64th Note to BeOS is either heroic or insane. The Project 64 coders (64th Note is 99.8% PJ64) clearly have no inkling that there might ever be any platforms other than Windows. Ye gods.
Posted By: Richard Bannister Re: Other interesting formats? - 03/21/05 04:01 AM
If you've never had formal programming tuition (from a design perspective, that is) code can often end up that way.

The original Audio Overload was developed before I took a course in software engineering. It had Mac-specific stuff splattered throughout the entire code base, and worse yet, the playback engine bits were similarly spread rather than organised into modules. Audio Overload 2 isn't the cleanest piece of code ever written by a fair margin, but it's a hell of a lot better than AO1.

Incidentally, for those still waiting for the new version of Audio Overload, the hold up is still Mac icons. I sent an e-mail to the guy working on them this evening, asking him if he expects in the next few days. If yes, I'll hold; if not, then I'll upload as things stand. Either way, AO20b4 will be on or before Easter Sunday.
Posted By: Slick Mandela Re: Other interesting formats? - 03/21/05 04:30 AM
Hot damn, this is going to be the best AO release ever- I can feel it.

Perhaps that break did you well, RB. smile
Posted By: Richard Bannister Re: Other interesting formats? - 03/21/05 04:36 AM
Credit where it's due; three of the four new supported formats are courtesy of R. Belmont. The pattern seems likely to be repeated in 2.0b5, too.
Posted By: Iggy Drougge Re: Other interesting formats? - 03/22/05 12:02 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Computolio:
Thing is, MOD has an insane amount of related formats, some used for more complex music on the PC, others used as the music driver for various Amiga games. Stuff like Customplay and TFMX and so forth. As I understand it, Deliplayer (one of the few programs that supports all these formats) basically emulates just enough of an Amiga to get all these weird split formats to play. It looks like it could be pretty hard to implement.
CUST is more like PSID or NSF than MOD. It's an extracted player+data, encapsulated so as to be runnable by Eagleplayer or Delitracker.
TFMX is also quite dissimilar to MOD. It's made with a custom editor, supports auxiliary channels, and has synthesiser instruments in addition to samples.

Deliplayer is a PC program by the people behind Delitracker, one of the Amiga's premier multi-format players. It's basically a continuation of Delitracker, combined with partial Amiga emulation for running the Delitracker plugins. A UNIX project exists now as well, called UADE. It's a derivate of UAE, combined with pieces of Eagleplayer (a Delitracker clone) and reverse-engineering, something which was quite difficult according to the authors. I think it's GPL.

Delitracker might be regarded as the progenitor of Audio Overload, since it plays not only ever Amiga (non-)format in existence, but also SID, AY, YM, Pokey noise/SAF and others.
Posted By: Iggy Drougge Re: Other interesting formats? - 03/22/05 12:05 AM
Here is a format which might be interesting.
http://shozan.sytes.net/~meth/musicfiles/samcoupe_musicplayer.zip
http://shozan.sytes.net/~meth/musicfiles/samcoupe_tunes.zip

As you might guess, it's sound from the SAM Coup?©, using a Philips SAA1099, basically a 6-channel PSG.
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Other interesting formats? - 03/22/05 12:32 AM
Mmm, interesting. The .COP files look to be a Z80 binary that lives at 0x8000, and MAME has an SAA1099 emulator we can use. Any idea on where to find technical info on the Sam Coupe?
Posted By: rpg Re: Other interesting formats? - 03/22/05 12:41 AM
I don't know if it will help, but there is an unofficial technical manual located here.

http://sam.speccy.cz/os_tech/unofficial_tech-man_v1-0.txt

Maybe look at the sim coupe sources?
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Other interesting formats? - 03/22/05 12:42 AM
Thanks, that looks useful, and I've finally found the sim coupe source on SourceForge as well.
Posted By: Richard Bannister Re: Other interesting formats? - 03/22/05 12:52 AM
If you need help with the SAM Coup?© hardware, I've worked with it in the past.
Posted By: Justin Re: Other interesting formats? - 03/22/05 12:39 PM
MESS has a SAM Coup?© driver too.
Posted By: Richard Bannister Re: Other interesting formats? - 03/24/05 03:35 AM
I have slightly working COP support now. Slightly working in that about six tunes sound perfect, and the rest don't work at all!

I'm looking at it...
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Other interesting formats? - 03/25/05 11:43 AM
I've sniffed out the 4 different file formats that are all called .COP and all the files I've been able to download play something now. Some of them are quite good - the SAA1099 has a less harsh sound than your usual AY-3-891x/YM2149 PSG and more polyphony, so there's more real chords and less tweaky arpeggiation and other "voice-adding" tricks.
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Other interesting formats? - 03/25/05 11:53 AM
BTW, Iggy, if you have any other oddball formats like that up your sleeve, please pitch them :-)
Posted By: Richard Bannister Re: Other interesting formats? - 03/25/05 02:57 PM
If anyone has any other sources for SAM tunes, please post them. There's a lot of good music that doesn't seem to have been ripped.
Posted By: Justin Re: Other interesting formats? - 03/26/05 04:15 AM
http://shozan.sytes.net/~meth/musicfiles/unknown_samcoupe_tunes.zip

There seems to be another SAM Coup?© format, .sng (or maybe it's a different extension for the same thing):

ftp://ftp.nvg.ntnu.no/pub/sam-coupe/emulation/sound/ ftp://ftp.nvg.ntnu.no/pub/sam-coupe/emulation/sound/songs
Posted By: Richard Bannister Re: Other interesting formats? - 03/26/05 04:55 AM
Yeah, .sng is a different extension for .cop. It's the same format. Thanks for the unknown archive though; there's some good stuff in there.
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Other interesting formats? - 03/26/05 05:00 AM
Yeah, I already had the unknown_samcoupe_tunes smile

The .sngs are "bare data" Etracker format, which also appears as .cop and we already support.
Posted By: Iggy Drougge Re: Other interesting formats? - 03/31/05 03:51 AM
Support for ZX Spectrum Protracker format might be a good idea, since those tunes seem much more abundant than .AY dumps. Sergei Bulba knows all about Spectrum music, formats and emulation.
There is also the format used by NEC computers, called S88, IIRC. Implementation might be difficult due to mostly Japanese documentation, if any at all (I'm too tired to have a look ATM), as well as a multitude of chips.
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Other interesting formats? - 03/31/05 06:44 AM
You got download links for the Spectrum Protracker or S88 files? Japanese documentation isn't necessarily a huge issue.
Posted By: Shadowbird RH Re: Other interesting formats? - 04/01/05 09:28 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by rpg:
SexyPSF has been fully ported for os x and the sources that I have build an excellent cli app. Works with every psf/minipsf file I have thrown at it. Any chance of inclusion? I think usf is out of the question because it is so new, but psf support would be excellent. (I can provide the source.) [/QB]
Really? So does that include Chocobo Dungeon 2? I'm using PSFPlay and that's the only game music that fails to play. It would be excellant if AO could end up being able to play it, and the only reason I don't use AO more often is because it's currently necessary to manually change the tracks. If these changes were implemented into AO, I might never touch PSFPlay (currently playing a song from Breath of Fire III) again! =D
Posted By: Iggy Drougge Re: Other interesting formats? - 04/01/05 08:23 PM
For ZX Spectrum formats: http://bulba.at.kz/
Posted By: Iggy Drougge Re: Other interesting formats? - 04/01/05 10:16 PM
Sources for S98 WinAMP plugin: http://www.vesta.dti.ne.jp/~tsato/arc/in_s98-1.13p5_src.zip
Sources for PC98 emu: http://www.yui.ne.jp/np2/indexe.html
Source for PC88 emu: http://www.cug.net/~manuke/x88src.html
Here is soundlogger for M88: http://www.emucamp.com/boukichi/husic.htm
Format description: http://rophon.hp.infoseek.co.jp/uty_doc/s98spec1.txt
More info:

PC88 uses beeper + YM2203/YM2608.
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Other interesting formats? - 04/02/05 01:02 AM
Cool, thanks!
Posted By: Ryan Reilly Re: Other interesting formats? - 04/02/05 02:16 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Shadowbird RH:
[QUOTE] If these changes were implemented into AO, I might never touch PSFPlay (currently playing a song from Breath of Fire III) again! =D
Agreed. Any other video game music player would become obsolete. Richard. You should call 'Audio Overload' "TITAN" or give it some strong masculine name! Don't get me wrong... I mean Audio Overload is a "fine" name. Its cute. I want something more...dangerous.

Thanks for attempting to implement PSX capabilities with your current hardware setup, Belmont. I and many others GREATLY appreciate the work that you and Richard are doing to better this amazing piece of software.
Posted By: Shadowbird RH Re: Other interesting formats? - 04/02/05 07:19 AM
When I first heard of AO quite a few years ago, I misheard the name. Probably because I was playing too much StarCraft. Until I was corrected, I was calling it Audio Overlord.

Just giving my input. I've got nothing wrong with the name that's been chosen for it.

*Imagens Zerg Overlord jamming to an iPod*
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Other interesting formats? - 04/02/05 07:30 AM
LOL. I'm not a huge fan of AO the name (if I'd gotten there first instead of Richard it'd be "M2", obviously) but it's got a bit of a history now so may as well keep it :-)

ETA: s98 files are now fully working. Keep the wacky Japanese formats coming, I find them strangely compelling cool
Posted By: Slick Mandela Re: Other interesting formats? - 04/02/05 10:50 PM
If it were named M2 it would probably be sued by Konami for stealing its name. wink
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Other interesting formats? - 04/03/05 12:59 AM
3DO's name, actually. And Korg hasn't bothered me about M1 yet.
Posted By: Richard Bannister Re: Other interesting formats? - 04/04/05 04:01 AM
Hint. Try typing "drwbwl" in the Mac version and see what happens to the program name smile
Posted By: Slick Mandela Re: Other interesting formats? - 04/04/05 06:52 AM
I love easter eggs. And I for one welcome Bannister as my overlord. wink
Posted By: rpg Re: Other interesting formats? - 04/21/05 08:04 AM
Any updates on the status of all the formats added since 2.0b4?
Posted By: Richard Bannister Re: Other interesting formats? - 04/21/05 01:22 PM
I've implemented working Orchestra-90 (.orc) support. I'll let the good Monsieur Belmont elaborate on what he's been working on smile
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Other interesting formats? - 04/21/05 08:35 PM
Geez, I don't remember what's been added, I've been reading too much MIPS disassembly lately for MESS ;-)

Anyway, there's .S98, .S3M, the various Sam Coupe formats, the .MOD player is much more accurate (huge thanks to the UADE guys for hints and tips there), and I hope to have .VOC files playing very soon.
Posted By: Richard Bannister Re: Other interesting formats? - 04/21/05 09:24 PM
VOC? Isn't that just a sample format ala WAV?
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Other interesting formats? - 04/21/05 11:31 PM
You're right, I confused my prehistoric PC files. I meant ROL.
Posted By: Richard Bannister Re: Other interesting formats? - 04/22/05 02:57 AM
Ahh. Too many TLAs :rolleyes:
Posted By: rpg Re: Other interesting formats? - 04/22/05 12:32 PM
Awesome you guys. Great work.
Posted By: Furby Re: Other interesting formats? - 04/26/05 10:17 PM
I plan to help out over here... I located something at PSF Central. Although the site hasn't beed updated to say USF Is availble, there are some programs with source codes downloadable. Does this help you, Richard? wink
Click here!
Sorry if you are still hesitant to inplement PSF or USF into Audio Overload. Just helping out!
One more thing...
Here's the link to USF Central 2.0!
Click here!
Source code for 64th note is in USF Central 2.0.
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Other interesting formats? - 04/26/05 10:39 PM
That's all stuff we already knew about, but thanks anyway smile
Posted By: Richard Bannister Re: Other interesting formats? - 04/27/05 01:04 AM
I won't be implementing either PSF or USF, though I believe R. Belmont might take them on at some point, as he at least knows the PSX hardware.
Posted By: hcs Re: Other interesting formats? - 04/27/05 09:16 AM
If I can help at all with implementing USF support let me know. I'd love to see a clean, better written player, but if I tried rewriting it from scratch it'd be worse than it is now...
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Other interesting formats? - 04/27/05 08:23 PM
I think a good starting point there would be contacting whoever did the BeOS port and seeing if we can get their source - it's pretty much bound to be more portable by definition.
Posted By: Vlcice Re: Other interesting formats? - 05/02/05 12:05 AM
There are a few wacky Japanese formats I'd like to see supported in Audio Overload, especially since there aren't any other players for them for Mac. :3

FMP and PMD are especially two I'd like; they're related formats used on the PC-98 series of computers. Like MDX on the X68000, they have both FM and PCM parts with the PCMs stored in external files; as far as I can tell, FMP supports only about one PCM channel, while PMD supports more. FMPs have the OPI, OVI and OZI extensions, while PMDs have M, M2 and MZ extensions; they both use PCMs in the PVI format.

The source for FMP songs is in the MVI, MZI and MPI formats, while PMDs seem to use just MZI. (There may be others, but none of the ones in my collection have other extensions.) For the life of me I can't find the site it came from, so I've uploaded an example, along with its compiled version, here .

Unlike MDX, which as far as I can tell usually has PCMs for each set, PCM files are often shared between songs, and some popular sets are very widely used.

You can find source to an XMMS player here ; C60\'s page may also be useful - he made the commonly-used Windows WinFMP and PMDWin drivers. You can find example songs and PCMs at Human Experiment\'s FMP/PMD page , although he doesn't distinguish between the formats and you'll find both FMPs and PMDs in the same archives. Maak has a set of his older FMP songs on his site, as well. He doesn't include the required PCMs, but you can find the filenames in the readme file.

Ultramarine would be nifty, too, but since as far as I can tell there are only about nine songs in circulation it's probably hardly worth the effort. ^.~ It seems to be a PCM-based format where, like with MDX, PMD and FMP, the samples are stored in external files instead of in the songs themselves. If you want to give it a go anyway, the Ultramarine site seems to have source code available for its player.

You can find example songs and a set of PCMs (used by all of the songs I've been able to find) at Tan-Y\'s site , and more example songs at Gay-LLA\'s site .

I'm really glad to see S98 support added, incidentally! I'm looking forward to when it's updated in the Mac version.

And thank you, incidentally, for reading this - I hope adding FMP/PMD seems possible!
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Other interesting formats? - 05/02/05 12:51 AM
Thanks, that's a fantastic set of resources! smile
Posted By: Richard Bannister Re: Other interesting formats? - 05/02/05 12:56 AM
Indeed. Time is something I am seriously lacking in at the moment, but that should change by the middle of the summer. At that point I'll take a look at a few of those if the other RB doesn't beat me to it.
Posted By: Stefan Lindberg Re: Other interesting formats? - 05/08/05 11:37 PM
About those "COP" files... they are only called so because they did not have any file extension when i extracted them from various Sam Coupe diskimages i found on the net... so i just named them "COP" so i could associate them with the player laugh
sorry if it confused you guys.

It been a long time since i used soundemualtors a lot... i once had a webpage dedicated to what i then called "music emulators" and i just checked it today and it was still there.. amazing eek click here to see my old crap page


i have a couple of MDX and FMPMD tunes you can download for testing purpose :p
about 4000 FMPMD tunes
About 4000 MDX tunes
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Other interesting formats? - 05/09/05 01:13 AM
Dang! Thanks a ton :-)
Posted By: Vlcice Re: Other interesting formats? - 05/10/05 02:08 AM
I'm sorry for the late reply here, but better late than never. ;3

I just wanted to thank you for your interest in the formats, and hope you have luck in investigating them whenever you get the chance!

I also wanted to thank you both in general; I've gotten great use out of quite a bit of software both of you have written, and I'm quite grateful for it.
Posted By: Stefan Lindberg Re: Other interesting formats? - 05/12/05 03:58 AM
i don't know if this is "interesting" formats but they are definitely exotic smile
It's "EUP" and "MVS" format from FM-Towns, i only have a few of these files click here to download about 100 of them (with windows player) you need to config the ini file for the fmbpmb dir before playing any tunes.
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Other interesting formats? - 05/12/05 05:33 AM
In case I haven't made this clear yet, any Japanese home computer format is at least "interesting" :-)
Posted By: Furby Re: Other interesting formats? - 05/16/05 02:06 AM
Sorry to disturb, but do you know the USF Specification?

If not, go here. :pong:

Alright, now let's see about the PSF section...

Yes! Maybe this will do...

This is what I think will do...
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Other interesting formats? - 05/16/05 02:40 AM
If you'd actually read back in the thread you'd know that we are aware of those formats. And that there are significant technological obstacles.
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Other interesting formats? - 05/28/05 10:40 AM
BTW, any Japanese speakers around here know anything about the .SPU files found e.g. at http://f1.aaa.livedoor.jp/~rophon/index.htm#SPUFMT ? It's apparently a log format for PS1/PS2 games like .s98/.vgm/etc.

Looks like there's a 4k header, an SPURAM image at 0x01000, and SPU register log data at 0x80000. I don't immediately see how the log data works though. Links to players/creators/anything at all would be cool.
Posted By: Justin Re: Other interesting formats? - 05/28/05 01:17 PM
rudimentary Japanese + Google =

http://hp.vector.co.jp/authors/VA015058/source/kbspu_k_007s.cab (from http://kbmplaybbs.dip.jp/plugins/ ) appears to be source code to a .spu plugin for some media player.

http://www1.odn.ne.jp/psx-alternative/project_spu.html
Eternal SPU Plugin is a sound plugin for various emulators that can create .spu logs, and seems to be the origin of the format. Eternal SPU Player is a player program that supports .spu files and uses sound plugins such as the aforementioned Eternal SPU Plugin.

http://homepage1.nifty.com/rophon/mfhe/mfhe210.zip is a utility that supposedly lets you edit the headers of various file types including .spu, although as far as I can tell it only supports .nsf and .s98.
Posted By: Stefan Lindberg Re: Other interesting formats? - 05/28/05 09:24 PM
But is it really necessary to have support for a logg-format when there is a "proper" music format (psf) avaible for playstation music already?
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Other interesting formats? - 05/28/05 10:29 PM
I wouldn't normally think so, but at the same time the songs available as SPU don't overlap the ones I've seen PSFs of. (And PSFs seem to be all from US/European titles - there were many Japan-only PS1 games). Moreover, anyone can create SPUs with no technical ability - the Eternal SPU plugin for ePSXe will happily log them out even if you don't know anything about MIPS assembly :-)

Oh, and thanks Justin. I found an earlier version of that plugin, but it didn't match the "current" file format. The one you did does.
Posted By: Em Adespoton Re: Other interesting formats? - 06/09/05 01:14 AM
Well, I might as well add my list here smile

First, the tracker formats:
I guess it isn't really 8-bit, but the ogg extension to the MOD format would be great smile
Also, IT, 669, (Okta)MED and XM support would be wonderful!

I found a few more formats here:
http://www.sonicspot.com/guide/fileformatlist.html

It has such classics as the Akai Teledisk wink
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Other interesting formats? - 06/09/05 01:59 AM
No Japanese formats though. What good is it? wink
Posted By: Darkstar Re: Other interesting formats? - 06/12/05 10:16 PM
How about support for XMI files? A lot of old DOS games used XMI files along with a single *.AD/*.GM/*.MT file for their music.

Support for this format in AO would be cool. I don't know about the AD/GM/MT files but the XMI files are well documented (for example the Exult project has written a loader for them)

OK, so it's no japanese format... ;-)

--Darkstar
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Other interesting formats? - 06/15/05 03:48 AM
The issue there is we'd need a MIDI synth engine, or support to output to each OS's general MIDI support. Neither of those options thrills me much.
Posted By: Darkstar Re: Other interesting formats? - 06/16/05 03:26 AM
True, but for starters AO wouldn't need full MIDI emulation, rather only OPL/FM synthesis, recreating the experience when playing these music files through old SoundBlasters (2.0/Pro/16/...) under DOS.

That would be enough (for me at least ;-), since I only remember that music from my own DOS+SB2.0 days anyway so I wouldn't miss anything...

I could even provide some .XMI/.AD files for testing... ;-)
Posted By: Furby Re: Other interesting formats? - 06/23/05 02:11 AM
For testing USF and PSF files (have you done this yet, R. Belmont?), I think I'll include the following links...

Sorry if you already have PSF or USF files to test!

This is the same site, but they have both formats.

PSFs and PSF2s (Be careful, some PSF2s are very big!)

USFs

External links will help you out on music to test on.

Heh heh... :pac: :shadow: :shadow:
Posted By: Richard Bannister Re: Other interesting formats? - 06/23/05 05:00 AM
Erm... PSF is supported in the latest release of Audio Overload, and has the best compatibility of any PSF player out there...
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Other interesting formats? - 06/23/05 05:56 AM
Well, Highly Experimental itself wins by virtue of having PSF2 support, but ya never know when a situation will change.
Posted By: Firewave Re: Other interesting formats? - 06/24/05 06:18 PM
What about ADX and ASF (Dreamcast sounds)?

And I might dig out all my Playstation games and create some PSF files. There are a few japanese-only titles inthere, so maybe some uncommon is going on.
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Other interesting formats? - 06/24/05 06:46 PM
IIRC those are streams and we don't support any streamed formats right now. Also, we prefer "homebrew" formats rather than stuff directly out of games, although obviously some of the AdLib formats I'd like to add don't meet that criteria smile
Posted By: Stefan Lindberg Re: Other interesting formats? - 06/24/05 07:16 PM
What adlbib formats are streamed? or do you mean all those soundlogged-formats like YM, Gym, s98, VGM..etc.
Posted By: Firewave Re: Other interesting formats? - 06/24/05 07:58 PM
http://www.internalreality.com/old/dc/info/file%20types.txt

Hmm...judging from this (the only resource I found so far) AFS is nothing but a container with ADX files in it. And ADX doesn't seem streamed.
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Other interesting formats? - 06/24/05 08:45 PM
Stefan: I meant they aren't all homebrew (e.g. the Sierra and LucasArts MIDI derivatives), not that they're streamed smile
Posted By: Stefan Lindberg Re: Other interesting formats? - 06/24/05 09:59 PM
ok, now i understand smile
Posted By: El-ahrairah Re: Other interesting formats? - 07/08/05 01:31 AM
Has anyone mentioned Spectrum .VTX files?

I found some when DLing some .AY files…

Well, who knows it could be interesting. Here are some links.

Sample Files

Page in Russian and English

VTX codec
Posted By: codeman38 Re: Other interesting formats? - 07/10/05 10:20 AM
Also in the "interesting AdLib-based formats" is .DRO, which is a specially formatted raw dump output by the DosBox emulator. This could probably be handled fairly easily, with only some slight modification to the current AdLib code.

Here's the specification, if you're interested:
http://www.pi-r-squared.com/code/dro/drospec.txt
Posted By: Jonathan Wilson Re: Other interesting formats? - 07/10/05 07:35 PM
If you do support MIDI (OPL/FM), you should also support .MID files as well as .XMI files (lots of old dos and even windows 3.x/9x games used MIDI files directly in some form or another). I would suggest other MIDI derivitives too (like .MUS from DOOM) but that would be a bit much smile .MID is widely enough used that it would be worth supporting though smile
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Other interesting formats? - 07/10/05 07:57 PM
The new version of AdPlug is LGPL, and minus a glitch or two I've already got it working with/in AO. That means we can support *all* the Adlib formats now.

El-ahrairah: awesome! I was looking for VTX info/code but it's hard to find since I don't speak Russian. There's a .VTX remake of Purple Motion's Second Reality tune that's pretty great.
Posted By: Slick Mandela Re: Other interesting formats? - 07/10/05 10:16 PM
So Wolfenstein 3D will finally be playable? Yay!
Posted By: Justin Re: Other interesting formats? - 07/11/05 10:53 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by R. Belmont:
The new version of AdPlug is LGPL, and minus a glitch or two I've already got it working with/in AO. That means we can support *all* the Adlib formats now.
AdLib was always LGPL, the change just affects Ken Silverman's OPL emulator, and I assume you were already using Tatsuyuki Satoh's so it doesn't matter.
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Other interesting formats? - 07/13/05 10:04 AM
Justin: Jarek's OPL from current MAME actually. I love the sound of measured-to-be-perfect-to-the-real-chip emulation in the morning, and only Jarek delivers. (Also noon and evening).

Meanwhile, .VTX is in and working.
Posted By: Justin Re: Other interesting formats? - 07/15/05 03:21 AM
Oh that's interesting, Adplug reverted from Jarek's modified fmopl.c to Tatsuyuki Satoh's original when I wasn't looking.

All the more reason to look forward to pan-Adlib support in AO then smile
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Other interesting formats? - 07/15/05 09:01 PM
Yeah. They didn't realize that just asking Jarek would get them permission and were scared away by the MAME license :-)
Posted By: El-ahrairah Re: Other interesting formats? - 07/28/05 07:02 PM
Amiga Exotic Formats.

I have noticed from previous posts that some contact has been made with the UADE team.

UADE is progressing nicely. I have used it on OSX, although it has to operated from the Terminal. frown But it is, as far as I am aware, the only way to play the Amiga Exotic formats on the mac.

Are there any plans to integrate this player into AO?

Or, do you ever intend AO to be able to play these exotic formats?

UADE Homepage

UADE Developer Discussion

List of the formats @ Exotica website

p.s. good news about the spectrum vtx. I think I have might have heard that remix of unreal ][ on the AYLand Radio . Good stuff ^^
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Other interesting formats? - 07/28/05 09:31 PM
I'm not as interested in the exotics just because UADE does such a great job of it (and also because finding 100+ formats to check seems more like work than fun). I'm looking into adding (Octa)MED support now though, so at least the 2 major Amiga formats should be set.
Posted By: El-ahrairah Re: Other interesting formats? - 07/28/05 10:14 PM
Fair enough smile

Also, the guy who does the icons would have to start making them... about a year ago.
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Other interesting formats? - 07/29/05 01:30 AM
LOL, yeah! smile
Posted By: Richard Bannister Re: Other interesting formats? - 07/29/05 05:39 AM
He seems to have dropped off the face of the planet. I've not heard back in a while despite a few attempts to contact him; the current Mac version doesn't have icons for several of the formats.

If he has decided to retire and is reading this I would like to express my appreciation for his work over the years. Otherwise, maybe if he has a new e-mail address he should let me know about?
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Other interesting formats? - 07/29/05 07:27 PM
That's too bad, he did fantastic work.
Posted By: Ryan Reilly Re: Other interesting formats? - 08/01/05 05:52 PM
I love you guys. Seriously.
Posted By: Slick Mandela Re: Other interesting formats? - 08/08/05 07:15 AM
I can't remember if this was brought up or not, but has anyone considered adding the GSR format to Audio Overload? It's a new Genesis format and apparently the files are much smaller than GYMs. Info here: http://www.retrobase.net/gensplus/gens/gens.html
Posted By: Richard Bannister Re: Other interesting formats? - 08/08/05 08:05 AM
Just what the world needs. A fourth Genesis sound log format...
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Other interesting formats? - 08/08/05 09:16 AM
That was my reaction too. But what's the third? I know GYM and VGM...
Posted By: Richard Bannister Re: Other interesting formats? - 08/08/05 07:01 PM
Generator has its own variant. At the time it was introduced the only option was GYM, which cannot log samples accurately. Nobody has ever used it though.
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Other interesting formats? - 08/08/05 09:56 PM
Gaaah. And supposedly some people were working on a more SPC/SID like code+data Genesis rip format but it never surfaced.
Posted By: Richard Bannister Re: Other interesting formats? - 08/09/05 08:19 AM
I do believe that was one of Charles MacDonald's multitude of unfinished ideas.

Random idea - an emulator author scholarship fund, so those who turn out quality work can be hired to do the same full time. I can think of few people more worthy than CGFM2.
Posted By: techne Re: Other interesting formats? - 08/12/05 02:33 PM
AS for SID support, here is the source to the best sounding sid player for mac: http://www.fruitz-of-dojo.de/download/SIDekickv1.1src.dmg.gz

really the mixer and the filter and all of the extra code in this are not needed or wanted by me, and they distort the beauty of the original panning and mixing effects that people like martin galaway and rob hubbard worked so hard at. most .sid's play perfectly. and it is high enough quality to incorporate into AO i believe.

As for midi, there is not much reason to port to GM. However just sending a simple multichannel midi stream with velocity would be more than sufficient. Yes when output there should be an option of setting program changes at the first noteon for each channel and bpm But just having a file that results in a piano quartet would be useful. Most people wanting the midi out feature are probably musicians wanting to sample beautiful phrases like they did from records. So to me, either exporting, (&/or dreamily: having streaming midi) without any program change or extra sysex [[only note on note off, velocity and pan]] would be all i need to bring videogames into a whole new era.( i am biased because i make music mostly by recording my own midi). P.S. i will gladly remix a trans-platform song showing off the new feature, and give it to the AO project
Posted By: techne Re: Other interesting formats? - 08/12/05 02:38 PM
i am sorry, i was talking about exporting midi files FROM all of the formats AO supports. not suggesting ways that AO would play any kind of midi

Will midi noteon/noteoff/velocity/pan/multichannel output from AO show up in the future?
Posted By: techne Re: Other interesting formats? - 08/12/05 02:40 PM
is there work being done on muting independent channels for all supported filetypes?
Posted By: Richard Bannister Re: Other interesting formats? - 08/12/05 06:03 PM
Export to MIDI is unlikely to show up. As for muting independent channels, that is supported in the Mac version for most of the formats. Additional support may come at some stage. To my knowledge that isn't implemented in either of the x86 versions.
Posted By: techne Re: Other interesting formats? - 08/14/05 10:40 AM
Yes i have the mac version. And it is great. But several formats channels checkboxes do nothing when clicked ( given there is a time buffer). thanks for all the hardwork so far. i really appreciate it.
Posted By: Richard Bannister Re: Other interesting formats? - 08/15/05 10:02 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by techne:
But several formats channels checkboxes do nothing when clicked
...which ones?
Posted By: techne Re: Other interesting formats? - 08/15/05 10:26 PM
.sndh /.snd channel separation is not working. the check boxes do nothing. i have tested with many different snd files

sorry. there was only one that was not working:)

SAP /S98 /PSF/ MOD/MDX/KSS/ still have no separate channel function.

If i could pick which would be more interesting to implement first it would be MDX and KSS. there are not many files out there for these formats, but they are so unique and warm in their FM synthesis (they sound like dx7 chips) that it is a relief in contrast to the beautiful but harsh quality of most other 8bits

using the latest 2.0b6
Posted By: techne Re: Other interesting formats? - 08/15/05 11:09 PM
i found some intersting sound formats and files that are unimplemented in AO as of yet.

MGS/PC98(fmpmd)/VTX/USF if you need any of the files for these just let me know.
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Other interesting formats? - 08/16/05 01:17 AM
Channel cutouts for PSF would be basically useless - all the games I know of do round-robin channel allocation.

VTX is supported already and will be in the next version.

USF has been discussed many times here before. It's not happening for a long time.
Posted By: techne Re: Other interesting formats? - 08/16/05 08:21 AM
http://tmkk.hp.infoseek.co.jp/psfplay/

i tested many roms with PSFPLAY, it uses the sexypsf engine and correctly mutes channels. so even if it is round robin, there is already a way around this.
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Other interesting formats? - 08/16/05 08:17 PM
Uh huh. And see how far your beloved PSFPLAY gets you with Chocobo's Dungeon 2 :-)
Posted By: techne Re: Other interesting formats? - 08/16/05 09:11 PM
re: psfplay, it may not work on some games but that is no reason to not support it for the vast majority that do. (also you might have one of the many bad rips of chocobo's dungeon 2 )
;_)

another note: exporting audio only works when the song is actually playing, so the first part of the song is cutoff. having a function to export the full song easily would be very good

playlists: these would rock;)
exporting playlist to audio would rock even more:))
exporting to 24bit wav would be even better. ( i noticed that the 16bit wav degrades the sound quality noticibly.) it would be nice to be able to choose a high level of export quality as an option.

i totally appreciate all the hard work you guys have done to make AO a great all-in-one system. thanks.
Posted By: techne Re: Other interesting formats? - 08/17/05 12:47 PM
note: Audio Overload exports audio perfectly to all formats including aac/applelosseless/mp3 aiff (16 & 24 bit) with the help of audio hijack pro (25$) so audio export is low on my wishlist now. And i was right the only way to truely capture this sound is 24 bit audio. Otherwise you leave the sound feeling compressed and less electric, like aliens are taking ahold of your ears:)

Audio hijack pro also can automatically split files and runs vst/au/ladsp/ and native plugins in a matrix. it even supports midi plugins! I highly recommend picking up a copy if you are a chip music audiophile like me LOL
Posted By: Richard Bannister Re: Other interesting formats? - 08/17/05 03:11 PM
I'm amused that you feel 24-bit is necessary, since Audio Overload only generates 16-bit sound in the first place smile
Posted By: techne Re: Other interesting formats? - 08/17/05 06:12 PM
well you are right there is no difference. haha my mind was playing tricks on me

But as i have been playing songs i notice there is a 3 minute limit on sndh files. most of the time the song is just starting to groove.
Please implement no limitation of playing or recording time
Posted By: Furby Re: Other interesting formats? - 08/18/05 07:53 AM
Thank you for applying PSF support to Audio Overload!

Now to get to that music I was going to fool around with...
Posted By: Ben Boldt Re: Other interesting formats? - 08/19/05 10:58 AM
Richard: I have found some bugs in the Mac 2.0b6 version. I haven't really been keeping up with things, so please forgive me if I say something that has already been said 100 times.

First of all, and this has been a problem for a while, is if you use unusual characters in filenames, they show up goofy in the playlist. Obviously not a big deal, but I do see it every once in a while. The one I see a lot is the bullet. If you want to see an example of this, hit option-8 into a filename.

Next is if you activate the "audio overlord" easter egg, the oscilloscope changes from a line into a bunch of lowercase g s. I'm not sure if this is intentional or not.

I just noticed today that NSF files will allow you to go 2 tracks beyond the end. For example, if there are 15 songs in an NSF, you can go to 16 and 17. Sometimes with different formats it will cause AO to crash when you go beyond the end.

That's all that I could find. But there's one last thing that I really wish you would do, even though it's not a bug. You know the little speaker icon that is next to the item that is currently being played? I made 2 new ones; one is for a selected item, and the other is for an unselected item. If you could implement a way to have both icons present and to use the correct one depending on if the item is selected or not it would make me very happy. Here are the replacement icons, in the same format (icns resources):

http://benboldt.spymac.net/Speakers.rsrc.sit

I really think these icons would look better than the current one if you could find the time to make them work.
Posted By: Richard Bannister Re: Other interesting formats? - 08/19/05 12:23 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Ben Boldt:
Next is if you activate the "audio overlord" easter egg, the oscilloscope changes from a line into a bunch of lowercase g s. I'm not sure if this is intentional or not.
It is. This is an in-joke, which evidently you're not in on smile
Posted By: Ben Boldt Re: Other interesting formats? - 08/19/05 09:57 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Richard Bannister:
Quote:
Originally posted by Ben Boldt:
[b]Next is if you activate the "audio overlord" easter egg, the oscilloscope changes from a line into a bunch of lowercase g s. I'm not sure if this is intentional or not.
It is. This is an in-joke, which evidently you're not in on smile [/b]
I have to ask you if you like getting bug reports or not. I see no indication that you appreciate them.
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Other interesting formats? - 08/20/05 12:00 AM
We do like getting bug reports, because neither Richard nor I have enough hours in a day to try every file in every format we support that's on the Internet. Just as long as they're concise - "nsf doesn't work" isn't real helpful, but "the file X downloadable at Y doesn't work" is.
Posted By: Richard Bannister Re: Other interesting formats? - 08/20/05 03:55 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Ben Boldt:
I have to ask you if you like getting bug reports or not. I see no indication that you appreciate them.
Bug reports, as long as they're sufficiently detailed (as per R Belmont's post above) are always appreciated.
Posted By: Furby Re: Other interesting formats? - 08/20/05 06:02 AM
Did you know that the .snd extension was also a Macintosh Sound Format?

This is tricky... I don't know what format to recommend to you to do next... USF is in the works... two sound formats are too early in their stages for any devolopment for this program. The two are the Dreamcast format and the Sega Saturn Format.

I don't know what to do next... you got just about everthing. The Gamecube and Sega 32X formats both haven't been devoloped yet...
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Other interesting formats? - 08/20/05 06:13 AM
More specifically the DC and Saturn formats are abandonded (since late 2003 according to my sources). I may attempt to jump start them at some point, but I have plenty of other things to keep me busy in the meantime.
Posted By: Jonathan Wilson Re: Other interesting formats? - 08/20/05 01:33 PM
I dont know much about the XBOX sound hardware but is an XBOX sound format possible (hey, if you can do Playstation 2, Playstation etc...)
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Other interesting formats? - 08/20/05 09:34 PM
I don't think anyone does any synthesis on the Xbox - it's likely all streamed formats.

Also, I'd have to emulate a Pentium 3 at a good clip to play back such a format if it existed. No thanks.
Posted By: Reznor007 Re: Other interesting formats? - 08/21/05 06:23 AM
I agree with RB about Xbox stuff being streamed. Most Xbox stuff I've looked at have used wma-like formats for music instead of MIDI/synth music.

Also, having used an Nforce2 motherboard for over a year and a half, I'd say that Soundstorm's MIDI support isn't exactly great. The MS DX soft synth often sounds better, even if you can manage to get Soundstorm to load a good soundfont. It's a great chip for game audio, but not for MIDI.
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Other interesting formats? - 08/21/05 08:30 AM
Yeah, Soundstorm is formidable hardware that never got the drivers it deserves. NV should send the ALSA guys a manual now that it's dead and buried.
Posted By: smf Re: Other interesting formats? - 08/21/05 01:24 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by techne:
re: psfplay, it may not work on some games but that is no reason to not support it for the vast majority that do. (also you might have one of the many bad rips of chocobo's dungeon 2 )
;_)
ok, I'm going to bite.. where is there a good rip of chocobo's dungeon 2?

smf
Posted By: Reznor007 Re: Other interesting formats? - 08/21/05 01:56 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by R. Belmont:
Yeah, Soundstorm is formidable hardware that never got the drivers it deserves. NV should send the ALSA guys a manual now that it's dead and buried.
I'd like to see that too, but NV doesn't seem the type to give out chip programming details. Especially since it has hardware AC3 encoding, they wouldn't want to get into any license BS with Dolby(even though there are plenty of open source AC3 codec's).
Posted By: techne Re: Other interesting formats? - 08/21/05 04:29 PM
i noticed when playing all the turrican atari files that DIGIDRUMS is not supported. Please support Digidrums.
Posted By: techne Re: Other interesting formats? - 08/21/05 04:31 PM
re bite: i don't think there is one;p
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Other interesting formats? - 08/21/05 08:04 PM
Which Atari? SNDH or SAP? SNDH uses the SC68 engine now, so all your complaints go there :-)
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Other interesting formats? - 08/21/05 08:05 PM
Rez: AFAIK the AC3 section was a fixed-function backend so I doubt the chip registers would say much about it.

Beyond that it's hard to undersell just how far beyond anything else that chip is. Each of the 256 hardware voices had it's own parametric EQ along with the more normal pitch/volume/panning controls, and you could do submixing (route a group of voices through another voice to apply one EQ at once) and stuff like that too. The problem was that all that capability broke DirectSound's programming model really badly (to be fair, anything more powerful than an AWE32 does that) so even on the Xbox you couldn't get at all the power.
Posted By: Richard Bannister Re: Other interesting formats? - 08/21/05 09:31 PM
Digidrum support is probably in the YM format, which isn't supported right now.
Posted By: Virtual Alex Re: Other interesting formats? - 09/04/05 09:07 AM
I see you guys have said a hundred time that USF isn't happening but you never state why, at least not that I have seen. I am an avid VG music collector, and thanks to Audio Overload I have a flourishing collection except N64 music. The majority of N64 music that I find is MiniUSF and I have no means to play it. Why will this never be implemented?

Otherwise, do you guys know of a way for me to read MiniUSF without Audio overload? Or where I can get a different format of N64 game music?
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Other interesting formats? - 09/04/05 09:53 AM
USF/MiniUSF is playable on Windows XP using Winamp with the "64th Note" plugin (www.halleyscometsoftware.com). If you're using another platform, you're currently out of luck. 64th Note is based heavily on the "Project 64" emulator, and Project 64 is coded in a style that is, to put it mildly, hostile to portability. I could teach an entire semester on how not to write C/C++ code just with that source. (No insult to the coders is intended - they appear to be far too young to have practical experience with multiple platforms, much less proper CS training at a university level).

In other words, portable USF playing will require first writing an entire new N64 emulator. I'll probably take a swing at it eventually if nobody else does but it's not a high priority at the moment.
Posted By: Virtual Alex Re: Other interesting formats? - 09/04/05 02:19 PM
Hmm what a pain in the ass!

There are already N64 emulator called Sixty Force? If I am not mistaken. I don't know if that even helps.

I suppose I could go get this 64th note and do all the ripping on a PC and then convert them to WAV or something and then transfer them to mac... What a hassle thoug.
Posted By: Slick Mandela Re: Other interesting formats? - 09/04/05 08:23 PM
R. Bannister, you've probably been asked this before, but are you planning on adding a Year field to the SNES portion of the player? You've got Name, Game, Dumper, Comment, and Author, but no Year. Just seems like another field that could be nice information to have. smile
Posted By: Richard Bannister Re: Other interesting formats? - 09/05/05 04:14 AM
I can only display the information in the SPC header...
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Other interesting formats? - 09/05/05 05:18 AM
The "extended ID666" tags support that stuff. I can take a look.

ETA: That wasn't so bad. Look here .
Posted By: techne Re: Other interesting formats? - 09/05/05 07:50 AM
http://leonard.oxg.free.fr/

Stsound engine is open source and supports the ym2149 soundchip with digidrums perfectly. This is because he invented the YM file format. But only recently did he make it open source

On the site, there is also a cool GBA "DEMO" including a great selection of atari game music and a few amiga tunes too.
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Other interesting formats? - 09/05/05 08:05 AM
That's funny - we used to use a very old version of STsound for the .sndh support, but removed it because it has no SID or digidrums support. I see he's added all that now though.

ETA: Alright, that dropped in about as smoothly as anything has, and yes YM files sound a lot better than before. Richard will have to talk to the author about the GPL though - if we can't get an exemption it'll need to wait for AO3.
Posted By: Richard Bannister Re: Other interesting formats? - 09/05/05 06:35 PM
Remind me in a fortnight when I'm back from Japan and I'll chase it up.
Posted By: techne Re: Other interesting formats? - 09/05/05 08:57 PM
I live in tokyo. If you want someone to show you around let me know.
Posted By: nZero Re: Other interesting formats? - 09/05/05 09:59 PM
O/T @ Bannister - Going to Expoland in Osaka? I was surprised before to not see Daidarasaurus on your coaster resume. Not that I think you'll find anything for your top-10 there, but I had a good time.
Posted By: Richard Bannister Re: Other interesting formats? - 09/06/05 03:48 AM
techne - I appreciate the offer; the rest of my schedule is fully planned (morning to late!).

nZero - Expoland is on the agenda for next week.
Posted By: nZero Re: Other interesting formats? - 09/06/05 05:36 AM
Cool. Have fun on your trip!
Posted By: techne Re: Other interesting formats? - 09/19/05 08:50 AM
so how was Akihabara?
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Other interesting formats? - 09/24/05 07:20 AM
Ok, while doing research for some MAME/MESS work I discovered that AO's been doing SPC files an extreme disservice. I'll be switching that engine from SNES9x to Blargg's momentarily :-)
Posted By: Jonathan Wilson Re: Other interesting formats? - 09/24/05 07:47 PM
Good Job RB.
Having accurate (or as accurate as it is possible to get) sound for both NES AND SNES in the one player will KICK ASS smile
Posted By: Slick Mandela Re: Other interesting formats? - 09/24/05 09:09 PM
Hmmm, interesting. I'll be looking forward to hearing the differences in quality. Which'll be hard, because spcs already sound much higher quality than most gyms, for example.
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Other interesting formats? - 09/24/05 10:10 PM
According to the folks in the know, for accuracy there's basically SNeESe, then Blargg's player, then everything else (in order of decreasing perfection). The highly touted SNESAPU engine most Windows SPC players use is actually deliberately inaccurate to improve the percieved sound quality, and SNES9x/ZSNES don't even try to be correct at the moment.
Posted By: nZero Re: Other interesting formats? - 09/24/05 11:55 PM
I was under the impression that digital output of SNESAPU matched the SNES when set to 32khz/stereo/16-bit and gaussian resampling. That it was all of the features (echo feedback crosstalk, analog simulation, other resampling methods, etc.) that attempted to improve the quality of the sound at the expense of accuracy. So, you've piqued my (boundless) curiosity, can you elaborate?

SNeESe is the same as libopenspc?
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Other interesting formats? - 09/25/05 01:21 AM
Latest SNeESe is in a class by itself for accuracy - it passes all of the diagnostic cartridge tests with zero hacks, among other things (neither of the 2 big-name emulators even pass all the tests, hacks or not). It's audio was originally based on OpenSPC but has undergone 3 years of modifications based on test programs run on real hardware since then. OpenSPC has not backported their improvements.
Posted By: Reznor007 Re: Other interesting formats? - 09/25/05 04:08 AM
According to Antiresonance, he built the SNES SPDIF converter and made SNESAPU act exactly like his SNES. The high quality options do decrease accuracy for quality, but if you select "Like the SNES" it should be pretty close(turning off analog simulation may help too).
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Other interesting formats? - 09/25/05 04:25 AM
Ooh, people get snippy when I attack their golden calf. SNESAPU was accurate several years ago (and still is in the common case, if you don't mind that the sound driver program is running slightly wrongly to produce the "correct" results). The current state of knowledge of the SPC700 and DSP has advanced a great deal since then (particularly in the various corner cases that e.g. Squaresoft liked to get out and push), and it is no longer considered accurate at any setting.
Posted By: Slick Mandela Re: Other interesting formats? - 09/25/05 05:08 AM
Just tried Blargg's Game Music Box, and it's some darn good sound emulation. In particular, it plays Road Runner's Death Valley Rally properly. With Audio Overload's current spc system, there are certain notes that hang much longer than they should, resulting in eventual dissonance.
Posted By: Reznor007 Re: Other interesting formats? - 09/25/05 05:17 AM
Not snippy, just that he claimed it to be like the SNES and that it output the same as a real SNES. If it turns out to be wrong I'd gladly accept a more accurate one.

His comment
Quote:
SNESAmp 3.1 is out. This version contains many improvements to the DSP emulation. The ADPCM decompression, gaussian interpolation, mixing, and echo FIR filtering now work as they do in the Super NES hardware. The syncronization between the DSP and SPC700 has improved to provide more consistent timing between KON writes.
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Other interesting formats? - 09/25/05 06:55 AM
Boris: exactly. And the next AO will sound exactly that good too =) Feel free to try some of the infamous Squaresoft "wind" tunes if you're into that kinda thing.

Reznor: That's 18 months old. The really in-depth research has taken place in the last 6 months, with one important discovery happening last week.

Besides, next year when consumers all run 64-bit Windows 100% assembly software will die the painful death it richly deserves. (The ZSNES authors are currently working on a ground-up rewrite in C/C++ to avoid that sort of thing).
Posted By: Reznor007 Re: Other interesting formats? - 09/25/05 07:15 AM
Do you have any specific information? I'd really like to read about it since SNES is probably my favorite console.

I read the ZSNES dev forum alot since there are quite a few people that do tests on real hardware posting there.

I also read that emulators have been using the wrong IPL ROM, what's up with that?

Not meaning to be annoying, just curious.
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Other interesting formats? - 09/25/05 07:56 AM
I don't have specific written examples (I believe those are known as "the anomie document"), but the ZSNES dev forum is definitely where a lot of good stuff gets hashed out.

I don't know what's up with the IPL ROM - it seems like it's trivial to dump if you can run test programs, and certainly the one we're using in MAME looks right.
Posted By: nZero Re: Other interesting formats? - 09/25/05 09:00 AM
Interesting stuff. I haven't followed the SNES emulation scene very closely for probably a year and a half, so thanks for the update. Always nice to see some sort of progress going on.
Posted By: Slick Mandela Re: Other interesting formats? - 09/25/05 09:16 AM
So.... is SNES9x eventually gonna latch onto these sound changes? Because it would be odd to have such a difference in sound emulation from a console emulator to a video game music player.

I know you don't work on SNES9x, Belmont, but I wondered if you happened to know.
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Other interesting formats? - 09/25/05 11:12 AM
I would be surprised if they didn't. (It's by no means only sound still being researched, incidentally).
Posted By: Justin Re: Other interesting formats? - 09/26/05 02:38 AM
Who knows, maybe MESS will get the jump on them at this rate wink
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Other interesting formats? - 09/26/05 03:06 AM
I have email in to the SNeESe authors asking if I can just use their DSP code - I'm fairly certain their license (modified Artistic) is MAME compatible, but I like to be polite anyway. That would rocket MESS from no sound to one of the top emulators supporting it :-)
Posted By: Reznor007 Re: Other interesting formats? - 09/26/05 03:45 AM
With all the SNES sound work you are doing, are you going to do any video related work, or just get the sound going(that alone is great)?
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Other interesting formats? - 09/26/05 11:05 AM
I'll probably fiddle with the rest of it too. No promises though, I really need to get back to X68000 some time.
Posted By: Sixtoe Re: Other interesting formats? - 09/28/05 05:54 PM
Crikey, then I'd actually have to start using it smile
Posted By: Justin Re: Other interesting formats? - 09/30/05 01:18 AM
Heh, I noticed a pleasant surprise in today's MESS CVS update smile

EDIT: While you're screwing around with spc700.c, you might see if bug 463 still has any relevance or not.
Posted By: techne Re: Other interesting formats? - 10/01/05 07:02 PM
it seems that there have been significant improvements to audio overload. is there a new beta that we can get our hands on? smile
Posted By: Richard Bannister Re: Other interesting formats? - 10/02/05 04:31 AM
Not yet - but I've just concluded a house move, so if R. Belmont would like to drop me his current changes I'll see if I can merge things up again.
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Other interesting formats? - 10/06/05 11:25 PM
What, I have to make it compile again? Drat ;-)
Posted By: Richard Bannister Re: Other interesting formats? - 10/07/05 02:17 AM
That'd certainly be appreciated!
Posted By: techne Re: Other interesting formats? - 12/02/05 11:25 AM
how much should i donate to get a working version of the stsound integrated audiooverload build?
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Other interesting formats? - 12/02/05 12:04 PM
It *is* integrated in b7.
Posted By: Vlcice Re: Other interesting formats? - 12/02/05 12:32 PM
The Adlib support is quite nice. :3 Out of curiosity, are you thinking of adding any other Adlib formats later on?

[Edit: Come to think of it, this should probably have gone in the other thread.. sorry.]
Posted By: R. Belmont Re: Other interesting formats? - 12/02/05 08:26 PM
Yeah, I'd definitely like to. The problem with them is a lot of them have no ID bytes so you have to pick them solely by the filename/extension, which is a bit gross.
Posted By: El-ahrairah Re: Other interesting formats? - 12/03/05 03:03 AM
I tried to play some Sierra .SCI PC Adlib music and at first they didn't work. Then I happened to peruse R. Belmont's site and noticed his notes on playing these files.

The *gamename*patch.003 files had to be renamed to simply "patch.003". They now work fine.

Thanks R. Belmont. I just thought I would post this here in case other people were unaware of it.
Posted By: Vlcice Re: Other interesting formats? - 12/03/05 04:16 AM
Ah, good! Though the ID byte thing sounds annoying; it must especially make it hard to rip songs from games.

Is there any chance of EdLib (D00) being added in a future release?
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