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RMESS 105.1 released #2860 05/13/06 09:30 PM
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Robbbert Offline OP
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I've released a new RMESS which is all about getting the TRS-80 to work. Also added the Model III and 4 clones. And, discovered one of the level II roms was a hack!

Full article here -> http://www.1emulation.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=18150

Re: RMESS 105.1 released #2861 05/14/06 02:50 AM
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MooglyGuy Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by robbbert:
I've released a new RMESS which is all about getting the TRS-80 to work.
And by "getting the TRS-80 to work" you mean "copying the old driver", which is arguably a gigantic hack, right? You know, I don't think that you're going to find the lot of us to be very supportive of your derivative given that it amounts to you pitching a hissy fit that we didn't accept your gross hacks and kludges.

Re: RMESS 105.1 released #2862 05/14/06 05:10 AM
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Robbbert Offline OP
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Actually, I started with the new driver, which only makes a black screen, and went from there.

Of course you didn't take a look at the code before throwing insults around. Insults are what you are famous for, particularly on the mame.net board. They certainly overshadow any other skills you might have.

Submitting via the CVS is like using a middleman. I simply go direct to the public. Whether you approve of that, is no longer relevant.

Anyone who reads and understands my part of the code is quite welcome to make comments and suggestions.

Re: RMESS 105.1 released #2863 05/15/06 01:15 AM
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Lillymon Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by robbbert:
Submitting via the CVS is like using a middleman. I simply go direct to the public. Whether you approve of that, is no longer relevant.
This actually reminds me a lot of ID creationists like Michael Behe and William Dembski. Since their half-baked ideas have been rejected by reputable scientific journals, they bypass them and go 'straight to the public'. What they don't seem to realize is that going alone like this gives them less credibility, not more. The scientific community is quite reasonable, and will take a good look at a hypothesis that has some evidence behind it. The fact that creationists haven't even managed to make the scientific community look twice in all these years is a very bad sign for the ID creationists who continue to insist that their ideas are scientific.

I've drifted off-topic a bit here, but I think you can see that parallels here. MESS is (and pretty much always has been) really hurting for good, accurate drivers. If you submit one, I see no reasons why it wouldn't be accepted. The fact that you're here making a derivitive rather than finding your name in the latest MESS whatsnew.txt is a very bad sign for your driver being good and accurate.

Re: RMESS 105.1 released #2864 05/15/06 03:24 AM
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Bletch Online Content
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Frankly, what Robbert is doing is 100% fair. I'll be the first one to say that the task of writing code that that is maintainable in the long term is probably harder than doing the emulation itself.

If Robbert is not in a position to do what is necessary to facilitate integration into the baseline MESS codebase, it is better to release a derivative and hopefully someone will look at the derivative and do what is necessary.

Re: RMESS 105.1 released #2865 05/15/06 08:18 AM
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I would agree in the case of MAME - MAMEPlus supports all manner of hacks that make Haze and Aaron projectile vomit, but at the same time some of those hacks inadvertantly point toward what's really going wrong with the emulation and we ultimately have enough contributors to filter that stuff into real working code.

MESS is IMO too fragile and undersupported to handle the stress of an arrangement like that. Hacking sh*t up just to make it work is exactly what destroyed MESS the first time under it's original management (although in that case I imagine it's Robbert's version that's gonna collapse, not mainline).

Re: RMESS 105.1 released #2866 05/15/06 03:25 PM
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MAMEPlus sometimes even has some interesting contributions or fixes and I am still courious about some of those (especially that i386 thing, where he added some carryflags changes), if they are valid or just plain hacks.
From time to time I compare the different files of MamePlus against the offical MAME ones and point out useless or obsolete changes and post about it in the english "forum" (it's more like a guestbook wink and BUT is giving pretty good responses on questions and things you point out. I also asked him to submit all his savestate entries, so he hasn't submitted any yet, but he wanted to review them first, but he didn't completely understand Aaron's post. I guess his english isn't that good enough after all.

Re: RMESS 105.1 released #2867 05/15/06 04:40 PM
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Robbbert Offline OP
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Some good points here. I'll explain a bit more about why I did what I did. Hopefully you can understand my point of view, even if you can't agree with it.

Firstly what you already know.
See <a href="http://bugzilla.mess.org/show_bug.cgi?id=833">bug 833</a> for the background. Now having read that, I wondered, how can he reject something if he doesn't know how it's supposed to work? If someone can show another way to get it working, sure, I'd gladly accept it. But nothing has surfaced. I'll admit to having a small dummy spit at that time (sorry).

Making my own release was a possibility. The more I thought about it, the more attractive it seemed. The negatives could be worked out later. Because the Super-80 uses the same reset mechanism, it was obvious it too would be rejected. With no alternative in sight to make it acceptable, the only way for the public to be able to use it any time soon was to make my own release. I also incorporated a few other "rejections" - they will be tidied up when I understand more how MESS works.

How was it received? Outside of this forum, everyone was positive, thus encouraged, I decided to continue on to the current release, and hopefully beyond.

How accurate are my drivers?
They are as close to the actual hardware as I can make them, however MAME/MESS has limitations (as does my knowledge of how they work), so occasionally something nasty might creep in. As soon as a better way is found, it will be implemented. 99% of my code should (in theory) be totally acceptable to messdev.

What I can't stand is people making comments without firstly reading and understanding the code I've written - such as Lillymon's last sentence. If it really isn't good or accurate, point out the bad bits, perhaps even suggest what I should have done, and I'll take a look at it. Otherwise it's nothing more than mudslinging.

R. Belmont says my version will probably collapse - and he could be right. Emulators are born and die all the time as people find other things to do.

Lastly Bletch asks a good question. The answer is, I'm not in a position right now (due to the above and real life matters), however MESSdev is entitled to extract and modify my code as they see fit, and incorporate it into MESS - as long as the proper credits are given. If it doesn't happen, so be it - a working RMESS is "out there" - so users are not missing out.

Perhaps one day MESS and RMESS can merge, it's something that should happen, but I'm not ready just yet. At the moment I happen to like "doing my own thing". Sooner or later the novelty will wear off. In the meantime hopefully we can be civil with one another.

Re: RMESS 105.1 released #2868 05/15/06 06:44 PM
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Bletch Online Content
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Quote:
Originally posted by robbbert:
Now having read that, I wondered, how can he reject something if he doesn't know how it's supposed to work?

While I don't know how its supposed to work, I know ways that it definitely is not supposed to work. Arbitrarily setting registers is a bad thing for drivers to do. There must be an interrupt somewhere, or it must temporarily remap memory somewhere, or some combination.

Fun with analogies: You might have a car and you don't know if it takes gasoline, diesel, or some other fuel. You can be assured that it doesn't take spaghetti sauce. :-)

Re: RMESS 105.1 released #2869 05/15/06 07:32 PM
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R. Belmont Online Content
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In particular, although we don't know the Microbee, we know that external agents cannot change the Z80's PC arbitrarily as your patch on bug 833 does. Anyway, lemme pull current CVS and I'll show how to fix it properly.

Hmm, ok. A bit of Google says the real hardware works like this: there's a magic circuit asserted on reset/poweron that causes all bus reads to return 0x00 until 0x8000 is read (or more likely A15 is asserted). Nathan, got any favorite way to implement that? :-)

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