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I have an idea of what you're trying to say, but I'd still appreciate it if you could make a link between those two Wikipedia pages and Nestopia for me. >.>

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Why do you care so much? It's not an approximation: the PPU is a digital device so NEStopia (and most other decent emulators now) can use the mathematics in those articles to generate the same exact phase angles (and therefore colors) that the PPU outputs. It happens that MAME figured out that math first, but nobody ever gives *them* credit for anything smile

NewRisingSun will now show up and say that matching the PPU output is pointless because the actual colors come from your television and where your little brother set the "tint" control, but what NEStopia displays is a very good match for a wide variety of mid to late 80s NTSC televisions.

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Originally Posted By Josh7289
I have an idea of what you're trying to say, but I'd still appreciate it if you could make a link between those two Wikipedia pages and Nestopia for me. >.>


Originally Posted By R. Belmont
Why do you care so much?


Has anyone but me ever noticed a link between people who care an inordinate amount about the inconsequential minutiae of a given emulator and people who use "anime" smileys (>.>, ^_^, and so on)?

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Originally Posted By R. Belmont
Why do you care so much?

Hm...Well, I just do. Is that good enough? smile

Originally Posted By R. Belmont
It's not an approximation: the PPU is a digital device so NEStopia (and most other decent emulators now) can use the mathematics in those articles to generate the same exact phase angles (and therefore colors) that the PPU outputs. It happens that MAME figured out that math first, but nobody ever gives *them* credit for anything smile

Ah, that's really cool. Two questions, though. You mentioned "most other decent emulators"; were you referring to other NES emulators in particular, or emulators of any system that don't render colors in RGB in general? And...When did the MAME people first figure all this out? It's really pretty cool...

Originally Posted By R. Belmont
NewRisingSun will now show up and say that matching the PPU output is pointless because the actual colors come from your television and where your little brother set the "tint" control, but what NEStopia displays is a very good match for a wide variety of mid to late 80s NTSC televisions.

Well, I would disagree with him. I'd say the "actual colors" are what the RP2C02 PPU is directly generating. Regardless of what my TV does with those colors, the colors the PPU produces are fixed. If I want to change which colors I ultimately see, I can just adjust my monitor settings (in the same way that I could adjust the settings on my TV connected to my real NES to ultimately change which colors I see).

Did that make sense?

Originally Posted By MooglyGuy
Originally Posted By Josh7289
I have an idea of what you're trying to say, but I'd still appreciate it if you could make a link between those two Wikipedia pages and Nestopia for me. >.>


Originally Posted By R. Belmont
Why do you care so much?


Has anyone but me ever noticed a link between people who care an inordinate amount about the inconsequential minutiae of a given emulator and people who use "anime" smileys (>.>, ^_^, and so on)?

...If it makes a difference, I only started using >.> a few months ago, when I noticed one of my friends doing it. I guess I used to use O.o;; or something similar before I started using >.> .....

And I wouldn't call this "inconsequential minutiae". If the developers of the emulator care enough to know this stuff, then what's so different about me caring to know that same information?

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I believe in particular that Nintendulator generates it's palette the same way. I don't remember who or when the idea of doing the palette from the NTSC math first came up. Pretty much all Apple II emulators generate colors the same way, in part because of how Woz bent the NTSC spec to do his bidding for cheap smile

Oh, and byuu uses anime smilies too and he's the lord and master of caring too much about console details (it's just he codes them all into bsnes instead).

Last edited by R. Belmont; 08/11/08 03:54 PM.
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Originally Posted By "Josh7289"
Well, I would disagree with him. I'd say the "actual colors" are what the RP2C02 PPU is directly generating. Regardless of what my TV does with those colors, the colors the PPU produces are fixed.

The problem is that the only definition of what color it was generating was what TVs and video displays of the time displayed. Apparently the way NTSC color is decoded has changed subtly over the years, so there's no real definition of what color a particular signal should give, hence the backronym Never The Same Color. The PPU's color carrier is also a square-wave instead of a sinusoid, so it's partly up to the TV on how to handle the higher harmonics.

Originally Posted By "Josh7289"
If I want to change which colors I ultimately see, I can just adjust my monitor settings (in the same way that I could adjust the settings on my TV connected to my real NES to ultimately change which colors I see).

Computer displays rarely have tint, color saturation, and sharpness controls. smile

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Originally Posted By "Josh7289"
Aspect Ratio -- The TV Aspect option doesn't work exactly right in Nestopia. This can be tested with either Kirby's Adventure (the circle drawn in the game's opening) or tvpassfail. To clarify, it does work properly for 1X and 2X screen sizes, but not 3X, 4X, Max, or Fullscreen for any resolution over 640 x 480 (but I'm not sure if it works for resolutions lower than 640 x 480). Does anyone know if this option will be fixed?

I've been also concerened about this for some time, but my observings are quite different. AR for NTSC filter is wider than any other filters, good game to test it is Ultimate Stuntman. When in NTSC with TV Aspect, the opening Camerica's logo is nicely circular, but the smaller logo which is presented later (after a few seconds wait) is a bit too wide. When in Standard with TV Aspect, opening logo is not enough wide, but the latter is ok. I didn't notice any different behaviour when in other scaling modes (I'm using Max). So, the results bring some confusion even after reading this topic http://nesdev.parodius.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=3393&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0 and NewRisingSun's calculations. My question is why NTSC filter has wider scaling and which is correct?

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Graphics weren't always drawn to the correct aspect ratio in these games, so inconsistencies within a game are pretty much expected. Game graphics were drawn on PC monitors and artists largely had to eyeball the aspect ratio (especially at smaller studios). In this case the Camerica logo was likely drawn by a more experienced artist because of it's relative legal importance.

Last edited by R. Belmont; 08/17/08 04:55 PM.
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Well, I tested Nestopia on my laptop and clearly there is something wrong. On 1280x800, Standard Filter (with TV Aspect and Max) produces, I assume correct image (after all this confusion hell knows), but NTSC Filter at the same settings produces image which ratio resembles 1:1. On 640x480, NTSC Filter (with TV Aspect and Max) produces wider image than Standard Filter with TV Aspect and Max (mentioned in my previous post). Another thing is that sometimes when switching between Standard and NTSC you can have other ratios than 1x and Max for NTSC with TV Aspect, but not always (it has to do with TV Aspect option in NTSC Filter Options and Emu). What is the correct Aspect Ratio for NTSC NES and how to make it in Nestopia?

Last edited by diminish; 08/17/08 09:11 PM. Reason: mess cleaned
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Originally Posted By diminish
Well, I tested Nestopia on my laptop and clearly there is something wrong. On 1280x800 Standard Filter with TV Aspect and Max produces, I assume correct (after all this confusion hell knows), but NTSC Filter at the same settings looks like 1:1. On 640x480 NTSC Filter with TV Aspect and Max produces wider image than Standard Filter with TV Aspect and Max (mentioned in my previous post). Another thing is sometimes when switching between Standard and NTSC you can have other ratios than 1x and Max for NTSC, but not always (it has to do with TV Aspect option in NTSC Filter Options and the same in Emu). What is the correct Aspect Ratio for NTSC NES and how to make it in Nestopia?


Can you please rephrase your post? It's very difficult to understand.

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