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Originally Posted By MESSfan

I don't understand that fear of loosing what is probably crap.


It's better to preserve a few bad bits than to potentially throw away good ones without knowing it.

If something is clearly a different code revision it should not be thrown away just because it can't be positively identified. The prospect of somebody even considering this terrifies me. I sincerely hope that isn't how the no-intro projects work as a whole.

Only things which have been positively identified as bad dumps of already supported roms should get axed completely.

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Depends on the No-Intro maintainer, but some of them are like you apparently and prefer to keep all sort of unknown junk because they fear loosing what is probably just crap. Many were labeled proto for no reason at all just because they don't fit other categories. Even if by my recommendation a few real proto are lost, it will be only temporary, it's only a matter of time until they are redumped and documented.

The obsessive fear of loosing what might be legit with a great degree of uncertainty results in keeping junk forever in the database.

BTW I only talk about proto, I don't talk about revisions.

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not forever, just until some emu dev finds time to disassemble the changed code.

in the past, we have lost forever unique dumps (raflesiau in MAME) because they had not been shared and spread out enough. what we remove now, might soon be lost and forgotten: what if any of those are legit but the original carts got bitrotten since then, so that they cannot be redumped?

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Originally Posted By MESSfan
Even if by my recommendation a few real proto are lost, it will be only temporary.


Roms fail, often. This is a suicidal approach, you should treasure what you have, not throw it away just incase. Many of these things are one of a kind, they might NEVER show up again, or have failed since being dumped, especially the older ones. Being protos makes it even worse, they're less likely to be mask parts and so can be accidentally erased if not stored correctly, or just degrade over time. The number of physical Roms MAMEdev seem to be finding which are suffering from bitrot seems to be increasing at a steady rate.

Culling them from the database is a death knell for them because as soon as you do people will just label them as bad and forget them, even if there is a high chance that they're not.

Originally Posted By MESSfan

The obsessive fear of loosing what might be legit with a great degree of uncertainty results in keeping junk forever in the database.

BTW I only talk about proto, I don't talk about revisions.


Who cares, it's a couple of bits, a couple of bytes. As I said, better to keep a few uncertain things around than potentially throw away something very important. If it comes to light that they are bad, throw them away THEN and not before, it's not a race.

A proto _IS_ a revision, albeit an early one.

An obsessive need to scrub clean lists of anything uncertain doesn't do any good in the long-run and puts potentially good data at risk. Does that not concern you, not even slightly? That you're causing people to throw away unique, good, interesting revisions just because you want to make your lists 'clean' ?


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I think you guys are actually talking past each other a bit. In the past, console lists tended to label random bad dumps as "protos". That's wrong and those do need to be weeded out.

OTOH, in recent years there have been a lot of legit protos released for various systems (2600 and Genesis had probably the most) and analyzed in scary detail (especially Sonic-related ones). Those absolutely should be supported.

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Originally Posted By R. Belmont
I think you guys are actually talking past each other a bit. In the past, console lists tended to label random bad dumps as "protos". That's wrong and those do need to be weeded out.


If they are KNOWN to be bad, yes.. Not everything labelled a proto is bad tho. It's something that would have to be done with care and attention, not simply culling a bunch of sets because they happen to be marked as proto, with no further analysis. The impression I'm getting is that he simply wants to wipe out every set marked 'proto' that hasn't been re-verified without actually performing any kind of analysis of the code changes first.

My point is that it's something that would have to be done with care, not just done based on a label slapped on the set.


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Originally Posted By R. Belmont
I think you guys are actually talking past each other a bit. In the past, console lists tended to label random bad dumps as "protos". That's wrong and those do need to be weeded out.

OTOH, in recent years there have been a lot of legit protos released for various systems (2600 and Genesis had probably the most) and analyzed in scary detail (especially Sonic-related ones). Those absolutely should be supported.
You are most probably right. smile

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I think nobody wants to have ALL of the suspicious betas swept out. I want to remember that MESSfan initially cited 2 precise cases which are strong candidates as fakes, as consequence of redump or analysis, and I see nothing wrong with such procedure. Again I'm not a SNES expert but that's something useful, at least to start a discussion.

Those 2 cases are rather extreme, because if things really went as MESSfan says, those 2 dumps ARE NOT betas. And if such labelling was fair game in 1998, now it's criminal. This is not even a source problem, just a labelling one. Then we can start talking about the source problem (in other words: I can trust 2010 proto dumps from, say, SMSPower, a lot less relics from 1997 that smell worse than a pig carcass).

The "problem of the fakes" can't be eliminated altogether. Rather, I think the problem it's actually less insidious in console world, than say in MAME, because while the discussion about console fakes has been going strong for years now, I'm sure there are plenty of bootlegs/bad dumps in MAME that the community doesn't even know/care about (the recent issue about Cave PGMs and CRCs written on the chips comes to mind, and if it's a problem for boards dumped in 2011, think about those dumped 12+ years ago...). The more we talk about the issue of potential fakes, the better.



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Also may I add there is absolutely zero risk to loose any data with all the rollback stuff floating around and pretty easy to find.

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Hi just a quick question.

I see that the pc 8001 has 2 list, a floppy list and a cassette list. my question is this, I know the system is preliminary, but the Casstte list gives the software a *.t88 extension, yet Mess wants a wave file, will there be support one day for the t88 format?

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