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Re: Saturn CD emulation (or lack thereof) [Re: Haze] #59845 03/08/10 09:37 PM
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R. Belmont Offline
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I'm not sure twisted quads render properly on hardware. The list of "programming cautions" for VDP1 and VDP2 was larger than for any other hardware I've ever seen.

Re: Saturn CD emulation (or lack thereof) [Re: R. Belmont] #59849 03/08/10 11:38 PM
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Haze Offline
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Originally Posted By R. Belmont
I'm not sure twisted quads render properly on hardware. The list of "programming cautions" for VDP1 and VDP2 was larger than for any other hardware I've ever seen.


I seem to remember one of the st-v games needing them, the Tecmo soccer game that doesn't work ingame due to protection I think.. The World Cup it renders during the attract screens expects them to render correctly I think, unless I'm mistaken. It's been a while.

Re: Saturn CD emulation (or lack thereof) [Re: Haze] #59890 03/09/10 06:56 PM
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mariuszw Offline
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I love Haze's comments grin I would say that lots of stuff is already working correctly with ST-V/Saturn gfx.

Originally Posted By Haze


The rendering isn't really pixel accurate too, and many modes aren't supported simply because ST-V doesn't use them.



These are usually some nasty blending modes on vdp2 side, like per tile blending or blending selected by destination layer.

Originally Posted By Haze


Even in the limited test cases ST-V gives some games still have significant glitches, priority handling is wrong in many cases, twisted (double triangle shaped) quads don't render properly, blending is wrong in quite a few cases.. there are a lot of issues.



Priorities should be pretty good now, what case you are referring to? Twisted quads are probably used by one game (Tecmo World Cup) so it is minor quirk.

Originally Posted By Haze


Thankfully with Saturn the issue of protection isn't as big, which is what is preventing games like Final Fight Revenge and Deacthlete working properly in MAME.


The good thing is better Saturn support will give more test cases for improving the VDP emulation, the bad side is, all my previous attempts to improve it using custom rendering code caused the framerate to take a massive hit, so much so that I didn't even consider it worth submitting the code at this time.



What did you try to improve on VDP1? Last time I looked I remember it was only missing Gouraud shading on lines (used by Radiant Silvergun bosses energy bars).

Mariusz.

Re: Saturn CD emulation (or lack thereof) [Re: mariuszw] #59891 03/09/10 07:29 PM
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For weird glitches see Prikura intro, lots of corruption there.

For some kind of sprite placement / priority glitches the first attract level shown in sandror is still a problem (you can see the bottom lines of the characters even when they're meant to be hidden)

There are still games with missing sound like Baku Baku

Several games still have the timing glitches that cause them to boot with 2 credits.

The vertical bios screens in Shienryu are missing because of recent drawgfx changes.

The player 'hand' cursor in Shanghai Great Wall has a line of pixels missing at the top and garbage ones at the bottom in certain cases (join with player 2 for a good example, or move near the top of the playfield the numbered hands are glitched)

A lot of graphics are missing during the PuyoSun intro

Timer interrupts (or something) is broken completley in Pebble Beach

Characters glitch as they animate in Seabass

Funky Head boxers seems to be hanging at random, sometimes on boot, sometimes when you start the game.

The mode select screen on Mausuke seems to be missing some blend on the left, or at least looks very odd, likewise the earth in the intro, should it really be a flashing blue mess?

The blending on the Winter Heat title is wrong, it also seems ot have sound problems with various sounds geting cut off early.

sokyugrt seems to be crashing the emulator at the moment

myfairld doesn't appear to select the correct screen size, and has huge delays between scenes

Virtual Mahjong has problems with the wrapping on the girl in attract mode, and crashes when you insert a coin.

Various logos are broken / get stuck on the screen during the kiwames attract mode. (also a lot of flickering, and random stuff flashing on the screen if you watch attract a bit longer, like after the game demo)

I doubt ST-V is even pushing the capabilities of the hardware even slightly, but I can still come up with a pretty big list of current issues, so forgive me for thinking that it's not really as mature as the existing saturn emulators, which are capable of running a large number of saturn games many of which no doubt push the hardware a lot harder than ST-V does.

I was mainly trying to fix the VDP2 stuff that broke recently, not the VDP1. (as well as the Mixing)


Re: Saturn CD emulation (or lack thereof) [Re: Haze] #59894 03/09/10 08:04 PM
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mariuszw Offline
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Originally Posted By Haze
For weird glitches see Prikura intro, lots of corruption there.

For some kind of sprite placement / priority glitches the first attract level shown in sandror is still a problem (you can see the bottom lines of the characters even when they're meant to be hidden)

There are still games with missing sound like Baku Baku

Several games still have the timing glitches that cause them to boot with 2 credits.

The vertical bios screens in Shienryu are missing because of recent drawgfx changes.

The player 'hand' cursor in Shanghai Great Wall has a line of pixels missing at the top and garbage ones at the bottom in certain cases (join with player 2 for a good example, or move near the top of the playfield the numbered hands are glitched)

A lot of graphics are missing during the PuyoSun intro

Timer interrupts (or something) is broken completley in Pebble Beach

Characters glitch as they animate in Seabass

Funky Head boxers seems to be hanging at random, sometimes on boot, sometimes when you start the game.

The mode select screen on Mausuke seems to be missing some blend on the left, or at least looks very odd, likewise the earth in the intro, should it really be a flashing blue mess?

The blending on the Winter Heat title is wrong, it also seems ot have sound problems with various sounds geting cut off early.

sokyugrt seems to be crashing the emulator at the moment

myfairld doesn't appear to select the correct screen size, and has huge delays between scenes

Virtual Mahjong has problems with the wrapping on the girl in attract mode, and crashes when you insert a coin.

Various logos are broken / get stuck on the screen during the kiwames attract mode. (also a lot of flickering, and random stuff flashing on the screen if you watch attract a bit longer, like after the game demo)

I doubt ST-V is even pushing the capabilities of the hardware even slightly, but I can still come up with a pretty big list of current issues, so forgive me for thinking that it's not really as mature as the existing saturn emulators, which are capable of running a large number of saturn games many of which no doubt push the hardware a lot harder than ST-V does.

I was mainly trying to fix the VDP2 stuff that broke recently, not the VDP1. (as well as the Mixing)



You are certainly right, however many of the issues are probably caused by problems with machine emulation (incorrect timing? interrupts?) rather than incomplete/wrong VDPs emulation. Graphics-wise Radiant Silvergun is a game which pushes the hardware to the limits and it works pretty well in MAME (apart from late boss level which uses double rotating layer).

Basically I was trying to say that it is not as bad as it looked like from your previous post smile

Mariusz.

Re: Saturn CD emulation (or lack thereof) [Re: mariuszw] #59897 03/09/10 08:23 PM
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Radiant Silvergun, Die Hard Arcade, and VF2 are the top 3 Saturn hardware bangers, and 2 of them are also ST-V and work decently in MAME.

The Saturn was killed before anyone came up with any killer programming techniques. I'm considered rare because I'm a Western developer who shipped two titles on the thing, and it didn't run much longer in Japan.

Oh, and if you think Saturn games weren't glitch festivals on hardware, you really need to play the original Saturn Daytona sometime ;-) (This is something emulators don't accurately portray, incidentally. Games which ran VDP1 in the "draw until x/60ths of a second then stop" mode to have a guaranteed framerate often flickered really badly depending on the camera angles).

Last edited by R. Belmont; 03/09/10 08:53 PM.
Re: Saturn CD emulation (or lack thereof) [Re: Haze] #59911 03/10/10 12:20 AM
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Kale Offline
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Originally Posted By Haze
For weird glitches see Prikura intro, lots of corruption there.

For some kind of sprite placement / priority glitches the first attract level shown in sandror is still a problem (you can see the bottom lines of the characters even when they're meant to be hidden)

There are still games with missing sound like Baku Baku

Several games still have the timing glitches that cause them to boot with 2 credits.

The vertical bios screens in Shienryu are missing because of recent drawgfx changes.

The player 'hand' cursor in Shanghai Great Wall has a line of pixels missing at the top and garbage ones at the bottom in certain cases (join with player 2 for a good example, or move near the top of the playfield the numbered hands are glitched)

A lot of graphics are missing during the PuyoSun intro

Timer interrupts (or something) is broken completley in Pebble Beach

Characters glitch as they animate in Seabass

Funky Head boxers seems to be hanging at random, sometimes on boot, sometimes when you start the game.

The mode select screen on Mausuke seems to be missing some blend on the left, or at least looks very odd, likewise the earth in the intro, should it really be a flashing blue mess?

The blending on the Winter Heat title is wrong, it also seems ot have sound problems with various sounds geting cut off early.

sokyugrt seems to be crashing the emulator at the moment

myfairld doesn't appear to select the correct screen size, and has huge delays between scenes

Virtual Mahjong has problems with the wrapping on the girl in attract mode, and crashes when you insert a coin.

Various logos are broken / get stuck on the screen during the kiwames attract mode. (also a lot of flickering, and random stuff flashing on the screen if you watch attract a bit longer, like after the game demo)

I doubt ST-V is even pushing the capabilities of the hardware even slightly, but I can still come up with a pretty big list of current issues, so forgive me for thinking that it's not really as mature as the existing saturn emulators, which are capable of running a large number of saturn games many of which no doubt push the hardware a lot harder than ST-V does.

I was mainly trying to fix the VDP2 stuff that broke recently, not the VDP1. (as well as the Mixing)



You missed the broken gfxs in Pro Mahjong Kiwame S title screen. That's bitmap linescroll that for whatever reason doesn't take the right dot index.

myfairld is a SCSP bug, go figure.

puyosun is my fault, it was a bugfix for elandore, you can probably revert it if you want ...

imho I'm tempted to say that we can rewrite at LEAST the video emulation from scratch, current system simply CAN'T handle the most advanced features (mosaic and outside window effects are the first thing that comes to mind) ... maybe there are still bugs on the SCU/SMPC side of things, I don't know ... with the Saturn gamelist it'll be more obvious to know ...

Last edited by Kale; 03/10/10 12:22 AM.
Re: Saturn CD emulation (or lack thereof) [Re: Kale] #63877 08/16/10 02:55 PM
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max holz Offline
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I see that the SH-1 was decapped, is there some wip about the cd emulation?

Re: Saturn CD emulation (or lack thereof) [Re: max holz] #63878 08/16/10 03:18 PM
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The data has not yet been read out of the chip.

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