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I noticed some unexpected behavior when trying out Thayer's Quest;

Although the game appears to work, pressing 'Tab' does not appear to bring up the MAME internal menu, and perhaps more disturbing, pressing 'Esc' does not exit MAME (I need to force quit, in order to exit).

The in-game keys appear to work, but I'd like to at least be able to see the key assignments...

Is this expected behavior, or am I missing a step somewhere? confused


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Apparently it needs scroll-lock for UI commands toggling. See https://www.mameworld.info/ubbthrea...ded&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1

Last edited by Osso; 02/05/24 12:33 PM.
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Correct. Thayer's Quest has a keyboard that overlaps with some of the common MAME keys so MAME treats it as a computer and the UI mode toggle applies.

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https://github.com/mamedev/mame/issues/11993

Crossposted basically everywhere.
I believe the confusion here starts from Keyboard Mode not being exactly well thought with default behaviour and with Arcade games, I also have confirm_quit enabled locally for everything just because I quitted Windows OSes and The Typing of the Dead/La Keyboard one too many times for misremembering what mode I'm in.

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Is this the sort of thing a first time UI popup/flag could assist with? Akin to MACHINE_REQUIRES_ARTWORK, sort of MACHINE_USES_KEYBOARD, with a suitable explanation of the default control setup?

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Thank you!

I knew it was something relatively simple...

Incidentally, just in case there's anyone reading this thread who is -

A) Using a keyboard without a 'Scroll Lock' key (i.e. Mac Users)

-and/or-

B) The same kind of clueless as I can sometimes be crazy

The 'Forward Delete' key (above the arrow keys on an extended keyboard) activates the UI Toggle


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Originally Posted by elcondor
Is this the sort of thing a first time UI popup/flag could assist with? Akin to MACHINE_REQUIRES_ARTWORK, sort of MACHINE_USES_KEYBOARD, with a suitable explanation of the default control setup?
It would get annoying far too quickly.

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Originally Posted by MAMEBase
A) Using a keyboard without a 'Scroll Lock' key (i.e. Mac Users)

Fn + Backspace

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For systems which automatically disable the UI, having MAME just display on startup the same "UI disabled" message as when pressing Scroll Lock would give users a clue on what's going on.
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Originally Posted by ICEknight
For systems which automatically disable the UI, having MAME just display on startup the same "UI disabled" message as when pressing Scroll Lock would give users a clue on what's going on.
And it would become intolerably annoying very quickly for people who routinely emulate computers.

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Yeah, it's been 9 years now, it's OK to get used to the idea that there are computers in MAME :-)

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Originally Posted by Vas Crabb
Originally Posted by ICEknight
For systems which automatically disable the UI, having MAME just display on startup the same "UI disabled" message as when pressing Scroll Lock would give users a clue on what's going on.
And it would become intolerably annoying very quickly for people who routinely emulate computers.
I mean, you already see it every time you press Scroll Lock and it doesn't annoy you there.


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Originally Posted by ICEknight
I mean, you already see it every time you press Scroll Lock and it doesn't annoy you there.

Nobody said that it isn't effectively annoying in places, but pushing it at startup time is not the solution (assuming popmessage even cooperates mind you).

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"Let's make this annoying situation for a limited number users even more annoying for even more users"

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Guess I'm way more tolerant to pop up messages than the average MAME user, oh well.


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That 'Kbd BLOQ DESPL' is hilarious. Oh yeah make another random abbreviation for something that isn't documented anywhere LOL!
MAME is a complex and advanced program and the user is expected to either know how to use it or learn how to use it. Either by watching tutorials on youtube or reading documentation (including the source code).
As soon as you notice none of the keys are working or doing what they are expected to do it's an immediate clue that it's in 'computer keyboard mode'. On my laptop I remap the scroll lock key to the mostly useless Windows key using a little-known free program called SharpKeys.
I'm sure some similar program would be available on MacOS.
A quick 1 second google reveals there is one called 'Karabiner Elements'.


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On the Mac we take advantage of macOS mapping Fn+Delete to the "forward Delete" key that would be next to "End" above the arrows on a full size keyboard. So the default is friendly for both setups. We should probably investigate what we can do that's similar on PCs given laptops greatly outsell desktop PCs now. Supposedly most PC laptops also have Fn-Backspace generate the forward Delete key which would allow us to even the playing field for everyone but that needs testing, especially on Linux.

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I just tested Fn+Backspace on my laptop and it does nothing. Within a browser it goes back one page of viewing history. Within SharpKeys when pressing Fn+Backspace it shows "Web: Back (E0_6A)"
So Fn+Backspace is available.
Fn+\ also does nothing but isn't remappable with SharpKeys.
Maybe add an additional setting in the ini under "# OSD INPUT MAPPING OPTIONS" for 'uimodekey_laptop' with the default set to Fn+Backspace?
It could be enabled by default too since Fn doesn't exist on a external PC keyboard.


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Originally Posted by R. Belmont
On the Mac we take advantage of macOS mapping Fn+Delete to the "forward Delete" key that would be next to "End" above the arrows on a full size keyboard. So the default is friendly for both setups. We should probably investigate what we can do that's similar on PCs given laptops greatly outsell desktop PCs now. Supposedly most PC laptops also have Fn-Backspace generate the forward Delete key which would allow us to even the playing field for everyone but that needs testing, especially on Linux.
Most PC notebooks still have a dedicated forward delete key since Windows Explorer is pretty dependent on it. It’s usually somewhere toward the right of the function key row.

(You need to be careful pressing Fn+random keys on PC notebooks. Fn+PgDn is often sleep or hibernate which can be very inconvenient, and there’s often a “lights out mode” combo that may make the screen impossible to read.)

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Laptop Fn functions are always shown on the keys. On my Toshiba Fn+PgDn does nothing, as does Fn+Home,PgUp and End. Nothing. And yes Hibernate and Sleep are active on this laptop. I'm almost always hibernating since then the laptop boots up in about 5 seconds and brings me back to where I was in my last session.
Hibernate and Sleep are set in Windows within the Control Panel power options. There shouldn't be any other Fn+ settings for Hibernate or other automatic Hibernate/Sleep defaults.


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Originally Posted by Guru
That 'Kbd BLOQ DESPL' is hilarious. Oh yeah make another random abbreviation for something that isn't documented anywhere LOL!
... he's using a Spanish language locale keyboard. That's what they call the Scroll Lock key. Bloquear Desplazamiento = stop scroll / movement.

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Quote
Laptop Fn functions are always shown on the keys.

On the ThinkPad I use now, Fn+K is Scroll Lock, but the K key's label doesn't indicate any alternate function.

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there's always one..... ;-)


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