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#16981 06/11/05 08:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by seanraaron:
Anyone know what Mac games will likely work with Rosetta? I had hoped to someday get a chance to play Jedi Knight 2, and Star Trek: Elite Force 2, but I don't know if they're Cocoa or Carbon apps. My understanding is that Carbon isn't supported by Rosetta, but Cocoa is; I'm also hoping that those games are old enough that they'll run well with a fast enough P-M. Of course if there was a re-release of older titles freshly ported to OS X - Intel edition that would be very cool.
I was wondering that too. Perhaps Brad could shed some light on this matter?

#16982 06/11/05 10:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Brian Kendig:
Mac OS X will never run Windows apps natively. IBM tried that years ago with OS/2 and Win32s, and Microsoft thwarted them by making subtle changes to make Win32 apps incompatible with Win32s. (See the Wikipedia article : "Microsoft made a long series of unexplained and apparently rather pointless changes to Win32s which are widely regarded as a highly successful attempt to make it impossible for any third-party to market a compatible platform.")
As the Wikipedia article states, Win32s was the 32-bit extension to 16-bit Windows. As much as I doubt Microsoft's motives, it's unlikely that Win32 changes occurred *just* to run interference with third-parties.

Quote:
Originally posted by Brian Kendig:
The Intel-based Mac motherboard is still going to have custom audio hardware, custom power management hardware, and other custom subcomponents which will make it different from your standard PC motherboards.
I'm not so sure about that - particularly the power management part. Sure, I can see Apple using it's own motherboard designs - for example, they may well be bigger with more spaced out components, allowing for large heatsink(s) on the Intels (a la PPC G5), so that it has fewer, larger, quieter fans. But the implementation of power management doesn't rely on custom hardware. Although for sure there will be something 'unique' about the hardware so that they can lock OS X to it.

#16983 06/11/05 10:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by mangamuscle:
As a matter of fact Wine (and cedega to be more precise) is so compatible that the macintels will need to have a load of game ports the same day they are launched or many users might decide to buy cedega to access all those games, even the ones already released for the mac since cedega is bound to be faster at "emulating" a pc game than rosetta at emulating a mac game. This would be bad that it would jumpstart a vicious circle where less game ports are produced since users buy the windows version.
I certainly see that as a likely short-term scenario - as long as there is a significant PPC user base, ports aren't going to be that commonplace - any port would have to include PPC versions, otherwise it woud be a problem to market.

So yes, people will use other means to run Windows games in the short-term. But I don't really see that as a problem in the longer term, providing Mac maintains it's user base. Some people won't go to third-party compatability layers, and having a native port will always increase the potential market. As long as that market is big enough to make money from the port - and the costs of an Intel-only port will be significantly lower than they are today - then they will happen.

#16984 06/11/05 11:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by seanraaron:
My understanding is that Carbon isn't supported by Rosetta, but Cocoa is
Not true, Rosetta supports Carbon and Cocoa apps compiled for OSX as long as they are G3 compatible. Any software that is G4 or G5 only will not work (no AltiVec translation).

So any games that are G3 compatible (like Jedi Knight and Elite Force) should work fine. However games like Doom 3 or Splinter Cell which require a G4 or better need to be recompiled for Intel.


=will=
#16985 06/12/05 01:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by will:
Not true, Rosetta supports Carbon and Cocoa apps compiled for OSX as long as they are G3 compatible. Any software that is G4 or G5 only will not work (no AltiVec translation).

So any games that are G3 compatible (like Jedi Knight and Elite Force) should work fine. However games like Doom 3 or Splinter Cell which require a G4 or better need to be recompiled for Intel.
Excellent! Thanks for the correction/clarification.

It will probably behoove Apple/Apple software developers to state what software will run under Rosetta so they can try selling PPC software to people just buying into the Intel platform.

This is the one thing that seems odd about this announcement to me: why make a big public announcement like this without a hardware/software rollout almost immediately following it?


Sean Aaron
#16986 06/12/05 02:36 AM
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They'd need to have some seriously fast x86 processors to do such a thing, because Rosetta runs software quite a bit slower than top of the line PowerPCs.

Nobody wants to buy a computer that is (currently) a lot slower than last years model. In a year or so, once developers(*) have gotten their universal binaries together, there should be a decent selection available.


*: Premium and Select developers, that is. The lack of any solution for everyone else out there shows exactly how much Apple cares about those developing shareware and freeware for its computers.

#16987 06/12/05 10:35 AM
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Well, Apple could subvert any potential Windows procedure by simply executing Windows in a protected state, and (unfortunately) making users go through the Windows install process. Then it would work just like the Classic Blue Box.

PowerBooks will use 2 GHz+ Centrinos that will give the current 3.6 GHz P4 a run for its money. And, I think six months from now you'll see little everyday software needing Rosetta...

#16988 06/12/05 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by seanraaron:
Excellent! Thanks for the correction/clarification.

It will probably behoove Apple/Apple software developers to state what software will run under Rosetta so they can try selling PPC software to people just buying into the Intel platform.

This is the one thing that seems odd about this announcement to me: why make a big public announcement like this without a hardware/software rollout almost immediately following it?
Simple, the hardware isn't ready yet. Imagine if in October, after all the after-school buyers had bought new Macs that Apple said "oops, your machine won't last three years in our roadmap, sorry". What kind of negative PR would that have made? On the other hand, any customer that asks about this in an Apple Store can be put at-ease by a salesperson.

Doing it now gives developer access (WWDC), press coverage at a time when Apple is at least a month away from new iPods (SJ is good at keeping Apple in-the-news at a constant yet standable trickle), and it gives software makers no excuse to start supporting Intel in time for hardware launches.

#16989 06/12/05 11:33 AM
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Originally posted by Richard Bannister:
*: Premium and Select developers, that is. The lack of any solution for everyone else out there shows exactly how much Apple cares about those developing shareware and freeware for its computers.
A little unfair that one - what they are shipping isn't a 'real' product, and has to be returned. They have to draw the line somewhere, and is a developer that can't or won't pay $500 to be a select member going to pay $999 to borrow a dev kit? Take advantage of the hardware discount as well (which you probably would want to next year to have an Intel based box that you can keep), and the membership is virtually nothing.

And it's not like it is impossible to do *anything* without Intel hardware - you can make sure that you are using Xcode, ensure there is no reliance on AltiVec. OK, you won't be able to optimise it properly, but there is no reason why most developers can't get to within a few hours of a working native Intel binary without ever going near an Intel-based Mac.

Sure, some low-level stuff is more reliant on having actual hardware, but even then quite a few of the details that would be necessary haven't even been finalised yet - dev kit or no dev kit.

#16990 06/12/05 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by scarlet:
A little unfair that one - what they are shipping isn't a 'real' product, and has to be returned.
I do not see why they could not be shipping a reverse version of Rosetta now for everybody else. Lord knows they've had long enough to plan, and such a system would be handy for those who will need a little longer to migrate.

Quote:
Take advantage of the hardware discount as well (which you probably would want to next year to have an Intel based box that you can keep), and the membership is virtually nothing.
The hardware discount is better than the academic discount [a category which a lot of small developers fall into] but it's not that spectacular.

Quote:
And it's not like it is impossible to do *anything* without Intel hardware - you can make sure that you are using Xcode, ensure there is no reliance on AltiVec.
Oh sure, but I for one am not prepared to release something I have not tested thoroughly. Odds are that it'll take me a month or two after receiving an Intel mac to get any of my software updated for it.

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