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#16991 06/12/05 02:12 PM
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On that related note, I assume we'll see a boost in emulation speed by being able to tap more x86 source code that is well, more fine-tuned for the task?

As to Rosetta for PowerPC, the only way that will happen is if Apple goes back to Power for workstation computing. That said, that's certainly a door they're telling developers to keep open in their universal binaries.

More code independency also opens the door to even future tasks. Apple has gone back to the PDA multiple times since Newton, and from the looks of what Steve has said, he pretty much muttered "screw it, we'll bring all of OS X over when XScale hits 1 GHz".

#16992 06/12/05 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Richard Bannister:
I do not see why they could not be shipping a reverse version of Rosetta now for everybody else. Lord knows they've had long enough to plan, and such a system would be handy for those who will need a little longer to migrate.
I would rather like to see a Rosetta for PPC users. At some point you have to assume that people will ship Intel only binaries.

But how much use would a Rosetta for PPC be to developers? Would it deal with SSE instructions? Can you rely on the results of testing?

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Oh sure, but I for one am not prepared to release something I have not tested thoroughly. Odds are that it'll take me a month or two after receiving an Intel mac to get any of my software updated for it.
Fine sentiment, but I don't see how an Intel emulation on PPC would reduce the amount of testing you do on a real Intel mac - the best you can hope for is that you might have found and fixed a few bugs before you get to the point of real testing.

#16993 06/13/05 05:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nathan Strum:
Also, I think RB is absolutely correct - this is a lot more about laptops than desktops. The way Jobs presented it, it was obvious that it was much more than just part of it. It's a big part of it. If I had to guess, I would think their first Intel computer may be the next gen PowerBook.
This matches the whisperings I heard at WWDC from certain folks as well. PowerBooks seem to be at the heart of this. The plan seems to be to transition PowerBooks and other low-end Macs to x86 first, then do the high-end stuff towards the end.

#16994 06/13/05 05:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by hatoncat:
I'll be happy to compile MacMAME in Xcode for years to come, but when it comes to playing that high-end Model 2 (and soon Model 3) game that gives even today's games a run for their money.... it's off to Windows I will be happily going.
I'm curious why that would be. Performance of MacMAME on an x86 Mac will be roughly equivalent to a PC with similar hardware. The only reason I can imagine for wanting to boot Windows to play MAME would be the UI. I admit that MacMAME's UI hasn't aged gracefully (which is something I'm actively working to address), but I'd like to think it's not _that_ hideous. ;-)

#16995 06/13/05 06:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by seanraaron:
Anyone know what Mac games will likely work with Rosetta? I had hoped to someday get a chance to play Jedi Knight 2, and Star Trek: Elite Force 2, but I don't know if they're Cocoa or Carbon apps. My understanding is that Carbon isn't supported by Rosetta, but Cocoa is; I'm also hoping that those games are old enough that they'll run well with a fast enough P-M. Of course if there was a re-release of older titles freshly ported to OS X - Intel edition that would be very cool.
Rosetta runs PowerPC binaries - Carbon or Cocoa. The main issue will be the performance of Rosetta, from what I can tell. I don't think anyone can say for sure yet how that will pan out - ask again in 12 months time. ;-)

#16996 06/13/05 07:39 AM
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The rumor in slashdot is that the dev-kit has already been leaked to the net, so I suppose now that shareware-freeware developers get a crack at it, and we will get some rosetta benchmarks before the year end smile

#16997 06/13/05 09:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by mangamuscle:
The rumor in slashdot is that the dev-kit has already been leaked to the net, so I suppose now that shareware-freeware developers get a crack at it, and we will get some rosetta benchmarks before the year end smile
The thing to remember is this: those benchmarks aren't going to be terribly useful, at least in the short term. We won't know for a while yet what hardware will actually ship from Apple next year, and it's safe to assume that performance of Rosetta and the x86 OSX will certainly improve as well. If I were Apple, I'd certainly be leery of Rosetta benchmarks leaking out and perhaps tainting things a bit when it's not yet warranted.

#16998 06/13/05 03:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by mangamuscle:
The rumor in slashdot is that the dev-kit has already been leaked to the net, so I suppose now that shareware-freeware developers get a crack at it, and we will get some rosetta benchmarks before the year end smile
its a gnaa prank apparently (look on wikipedia if you dont know what the gnaa is).

otherwise an ati guy posted this on the macach (ars):
Quote:
You can't just install the Dev build on a standard x86 machine. Each machine went through a process to install keys at Apple prior to being shipped to WWDC. Each install is tied to that particular machine.
then theres some wacko on some apple mailing list saying theres going to be an x86 pci-x card. im just hoping for rosetta to go both ways down the line when intel only apps come out, or at least for pc emulation purposes. itll be possible, but would probably cost apple more, depending on what their deal with transitive is like. if theyre not doing it because of cost, i guess by not having it, itll force developers to continue creating fat binaries for a while.

#16999 06/13/05 07:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Brad Oliver:
Rosetta runs PowerPC binaries - Carbon or Cocoa. The main issue will be the performance of Rosetta, from what I can tell. I don't think anyone can say for sure yet how that will pan out - ask again in 12 months time. ;-)
Brad, you're working for Aspyr, right? Any idea if they're planning on updating the binaries for any existing PPC titles for running on Intel hw? Kind of like The Sims and many of the early expansions got Carbon updates to enable OS X native execution.

As my post made clear there's a number of titles I probably would have gotten already, but for the fact that my aging powerbook lacks the VRAM to do so. I'd hate to think that my only option would be to buy some soon-to-be-obsolete machine to play a two-year-old game (by itself a move that would be impossible to justify, although if I saw a deep enough discount in a 12" or 15" powerbook I'd be quite tempted -- not having to re-purchase software like MS Office would be a powerful incentive; plus I could probably pick up discounted PPC software...something to think about!).

They did re-publish a lot of the Sims stuff Carbonized quite awhile after the original release; I'd hope that stuff like Call of Duty sold well-enough to warrant the same treatment for the release of Intel HW. Heck they could even bundle some of these titles into a hits package or something...


Sean Aaron
#17000 06/14/05 12:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by seanraaron:
Brad, you're working for Aspyr, right? Any idea if they're planning on updating the binaries for any existing PPC titles for running on Intel hw?
I'm sure we'll do something along those lines, although it's unclear to me yet to what extent. It may be that Rosetta will run a number of games just fine. If so, then I don't know if we'll spend a lot of effort reworking older titles to be x86 native. A lot of our games from 2 or more years ago are not built in Xcode, so the effort required for them would be greater than for stuff released in the past 2 years. Bottom line - it's too early to say, but I expect to have to x86-ify a few games at least. wink

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