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Paratech #27394 03/07/07 03:09 AM
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Originally Posted By Paratech
When it comes to arcade games, I tend to agree, but how many people bought Super Nintendo's for the graphically enhanced Super Mario All Stars, with the lost levels added. Nintendo sold me a SNES when they offered me a free Zelda: A Link to the Past, $3.50 for Super Mario All Stars, and $10 Wing Commander, of course I purchased it from Electronics Boutique, but it was Nintendo's deal with EB...

Well that really did look unequivocally better, it also sounded unequivocally better, and meant that people didn't have to deal with NOA's legendarily bad NES build quality so often.

Originally Posted By Paratech
I also like the PC games that have updated Graphics, Doom with Open GL 2 is very nice.

Yeah, I'll admit I did that too. But then Doom was a PC game to begin with, so it was meant to be viewed at different resolutions. Also, unlike with any emulator, the people who made those enhancements had full access to the engine source code.

Are we slowly moving off-topic?

Rhapsody #27406 03/07/07 09:37 AM
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I'm sure there are some NES "purists" who prefer the "original" versions, although I'd hate to have to pay whatever the Lost Levels Japanese carts sell for on EBay...

I didn't think the NES versions were bad...

I pro'lly play the NES Mario games more than the SNES versions...

wink



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Paratech #27418 03/07/07 01:46 PM
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What are the most accurate settings for the NTSC filter? I love the accuracy it gives to the video. Currently my NTSC settings are:

Field Merging: off
Scanlines: 50
Tuning: auto
TV Aspect: Yes
Bilinear Interpolation: Yes

Can I make these settings more accurate?

R. Belmont #27580 03/11/07 06:09 AM
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Originally Posted By R. Belmont
I'm with Marty - NTSC is the only filter you actually need. If you can't handle what NES games really looked like, don't play 'em .


Originally Posted By R. Belmont
This isn't a matter of taste - the NTSC filter is almost exactly what the games truly looked like in the 80s when we were playing them on real h/w. The other filters all scramble the image in an attempt to make games look good to people who weren't born yet when they were released.


Those comments are silly, because for one, not everyone who grew up playing a real NES did so via an NTSC TV. There's also PAL.

As well, I was born in 1977, and I grew up in the U.S. playing real NESes. Yet I still don't use Blargg's NTSC filter, for a number of reasons. For one, on my computer (2.8 GHz P4 with 512 MB RAM running Windows XP), Nestopia with Blargg's NTSC filter enabled runs ultra-slow. Another reason is because NTSC TVs have crappy fidelity.

Trying to simulate NTSC TVs is a bit like trying to simulate old audio recordings being played through the old horn phonographs when we have the master recordings available and modern high fidelity audio equipment to play them back on. In this case, we have the bit-identical ROMs available and much more accurate RGB computer monitors.

It might be replied that the game designers were targetting the NTSC TVs (or the similar Japanese TV standard), and hence the colors they chose in their games were picked using that standard. That may be the case, but it's unlikely that's how most of them actually desired their games to look: rather, they were simply making do as best they could with a low fidelity playback standard.

To use a precisely corresponding analogy, it would be the same as trying to simulate the 1980s U.S. TV shows (e.g., The A-Team, MacGyver, etc.) being played through NTSC TVs. Or rather, saying that if you don't play back the DVDs of those shows simulating 1980s NTSC TVs that you're not getting the colors right, i.e., according to how the directors of the shows intended them to look.

So nowadays we have the ability to make these games look much better than they did when we were originally playing them.

I personally don't like using any filtering method other than nearest neighbor interpolation on any of the emulators I use. It produces more noticeable pixelation, but it keeps the picture as sharp as can be. This looks by far the clearest (i.e., no blurriness at all). Plus, it's the easiest way to resize an image, and so runs the fastest.

I wouldn't use nearest neighbor interpolation for photographs, because it doesn't look natural. But these old video games already look unnatural, so nothing is lost using nearest neighbor interpolation on them.

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Your analogy doesn't hold up - TV shows are almost exclusively shot on 35mm film, so higher-def transfers are indeed closer to what the director actually shot.

On the other hand, I can assure you for games that the artists painstakingly hand-tweaked the pixels using an NTSC television (or, frequently, a Commodore 1084 using the composite input). PAL was an afterthought for 95% of US and Japanese-made games, which is why most of them were windowboxed and played at weird speeds, and it's why a PAL filter is less interesting.

At least we agree that applying the purely synthetic filters (bilinear, 2xSAI, SuperEagle) is unnatural and does not represent the designers' intentions, which was kind of my original point.

Last edited by R. Belmont; 03/11/07 06:49 AM.
R. Belmont #27588 03/11/07 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted By R. Belmont
Your analogy doesn't hold up - TV shows are almost exclusively shot on 35mm film, so higher-def transfers are indeed closer to what the director actually shot.


The daytime soap operas weren't. At any rate, the analogy holds, because they were targetting NTSC TVs. They may have had a higher fidelity source, but then so did the game designers (i.e., the ROMs and access to much higher fidelity RGB computer monitors).

Quote:

On the other hand, I can assure you for games that the artists painstakingly hand-tweaked the pixels using an NTSC television (or, frequently, a Commodore 1084 using the composite input). PAL was an afterthought for 95% of US and Japanese-made games, which is why most of them were windowboxed and played at weird speeds, and it's why a PAL filter is less interesting.


They were making do with a crappy, low fidelity target: NTSC TVs. Blargg's NTSC palette may accurately reproduce what the colors coming through an unadjusted 1980s NTSC TV looked like, but those colors are still crappy-looking because the 1980s NTSC TVs are low fidelity. For example, the sky in Super Mario Bros. just doesn't look like the color of an actual sky when using an NTSC palette. Using an NTSC palette, the colors on all the NES games look dull and lifeless--they look depressing.

Besides, most people adjusted their TVs to suit their own preferences, anyway.

I'm not saying that trying to accurately reproduce the 1980s NTSC TV look isn't a worthy thing to do. Rather, I'm saying that people aren't wrong for wanting to play these games to look better than that, especially since we have higher fidelity equipment to make that possible.

Quote:

At least we agree that applying the purely synthetic filters (bilinear, 2xSAI, SuperEagle) is unnatural and does not represent the designers' intentions, which was kind of my original point.

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Yes, but isn't that akin to colorizing black and white movies?
Once you start screwing with the video like that you are no longer maintaining accurate emulation.

It smacks of "I want to play free games" and not, I want to play the game the way it was made to be played...

Also kind of like those digitally remastered Star Trek DVDs...



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Paratech #27592 03/11/07 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted By Paratech
Also kind of like those digitally remastered Star Trek DVDs...


lol! no doubt. it is nice to have it in surround sound tho...

echoes #27593 03/11/07 12:58 PM
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The new effects are awful though, and on *that* show that's saying something smile

Marty #27631 03/13/07 02:05 AM
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LOL, Marty, sorry to disturb you, but... just found out that CaH4e3 is always mentioned in changelog as Ca4He3. Suppose, he will be quite appreciated, when you spell it correctly.

BTW Nestopia 1.36 is great, keep working wink

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