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Re: Image info in XML format [Re: etabeta78] #30979 06/30/07 10:16 PM
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BootGod Offline
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Originally Posted By MESSfan

CRC vandals have gone as far as hacking hidden intros into roms and reverse the CRC back to the proper dump. So I think it's worth worrying.


Are you serious!? Here I always thought to myself there was no real reason to use anything beyond CRC32 because the chances of an actual (as in not intentional) collision are practically 0 and I didn't think anyone would be enough of a jack ass to do it on purpose (silly me :|).

I never used to collect SHA-1 for the DB either, but a few people requested it some time ago so I added it anyways. FYI, you can view the SHA-1 by hovering over the the CRC32 on the website. Not terribly useful like that, but it's there smile

Originally Posted By etabeta78
is copynes reliable?


As long as the mapper bank-switching info is known and correct, yes it is. If not, this mis-information gets built into the dumping program and in turn the banks will come out in the wrong order. If emulators also use this bad info for implementation, then you really have a problem because the game will appear to run fine because the errors cancel each other out. I've been keeping a close eye on this though and I don't believe anything in the DB is "dirty" like this.

Re: Image info in XML format [Re: BootGod] #30980 06/30/07 10:43 PM
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There were some instances of vandalized MAME ROMs with the CRC32 hacked to appear original as well. (Worse, people started burning the modified ROM into an EPROM and sold the resulting region-hacked PCBs on eBay, meaning we had to give up on trying to find legit alternate regions for that game). That's why there's 2 hashes now smile

Last edited by R. Belmont; 06/30/07 10:46 PM.
Re: Image info in XML format [Re: BootGod] #31049 07/02/07 11:43 AM
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FitzRoy Offline
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Originally Posted By BootGod

Are you serious!? Here I always thought to myself there was no real reason to use anything beyond CRC32 because the chances of an actual (as in not intentional) collision are practically 0 and I didn't think anyone would be enough of a jack ass to do it on purpose (silly me :|).


I can elaborate on this a little bit. There are "dumping groups" that take an inordinate amount of pride in what they do, so they feel it is necessary to credit themselves in the game with an intro or something. Then to spite archival projects like no-intro, they can hack the modified CRC32 to match the unmodified version's. CRC32 + SHA1 would make this nearimpossible because you simply cannot fake both checksums at the same time.

So yeah, for a while people were just like you, considering only deceit and vandalism out of boredom or twisted self-gratification. But then this less apparent motive became clear, and it wasn't worth risking the verification status of everything when it was so easy to just use two and be done with it.

Last edited by FitzRoy; 07/02/07 11:52 AM.
Re: Image info in XML format [Re: FitzRoy] #31072 07/03/07 01:21 AM
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dvdmth Offline
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Do the GoodTools still use CRC32?


"Last version was better," says Floyd. "More bugs. Bugs make game fun."
Re: Image info in XML format [Re: dvdmth] #31075 07/03/07 02:12 AM
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polarz Offline
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Quote:
Do the GoodTools still use CRC32?


The newer tools use SHA1, but there still is an option to scan w/ CRC32 should you manually select it.

Re: Image info in XML format [Re: polarz] #31082 07/03/07 04:07 AM
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Mike S. Offline
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Not that people should still being using GoodTools anyway, they're no longer useful as they once were. Better database projects are around now.

Re: Image info in XML format [Re: Mike S.] #31083 07/03/07 04:13 AM
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Yeah, but from my (admittedly limited) views into the "underground" most ROM distributions are still done in terms of GoodSets.

Re: Image info in XML format [Re: R. Belmont] #31088 07/03/07 06:07 AM
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dvdmth Offline
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Originally Posted By R. Belmont
Yeah, but from my (admittedly limited) views into the "underground" most ROM distributions are still done in terms of GoodSets.
Which is why I asked the question. I am not a fan of the GoodTools at all (the name is a misnomer as far as I'm concerned), but it remains the "industry standard," so we have to deal with it. The GoodTools have the biggest databases out there as far as I know, but that's only because of all the bad dumps and hacks included with it (which most other DB's don't count). The larger number serves as a marketing advantage, which is why I don't think a competitor will ever overthrow the GoodTools unless it has a similar "unabridged" database.


"Last version was better," says Floyd. "More bugs. Bugs make game fun."
Re: Image info in XML format [Re: dvdmth] #31089 07/03/07 06:41 AM
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xamenus Offline
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Originally Posted By dvdmth
The GoodTools have the biggest databases out there as far as I know, but that's only because of all the bad dumps and hacks included with it
That's actually what I like about the GoodTools. I believe that bad dumps and overdumps can still serve a purpose. For example, bad dumps can be tested on real hardware just as well as good dumps, and the results compared to emulators. In addition, if you dump a ROM and a GoodTool identifies it as bad, then at least you know what it is. (And just for the record, I'm not one of those people who must have bad dumps in their collection.)

No-Intro, on the other hand, only identifies the "best" dumps, which seems a little subjective to me. Take pirate NES games for example. In the NES dat only "pirate originals" are included, but pirates hacked from other games are not. I'm pretty sure that many of these pirate hacks have unique mappers that aren't found in other games. Is it really worth excluding these games that have unique mappers?

I can understand why some people don't like the GoodTools, though. If Cowering disagrees with something that a lot of other people support, it won't get supported in the GoodTools. With that said, I doubt Cowering will support iNES 2.0 and the XML idea.

Edit: Sorry, I shouldn't have turned this into a big discussion thread. The point of this thread is to work on the XML format, not give personal opinions about GoodTools...

Last edited by xamenus; 07/03/07 06:52 AM.
Re: Image info in XML format [Re: xamenus] #31092 07/03/07 07:00 AM
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Sotho Tal Ker Offline
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Unless the good tools consist of wrong information themselves. Which is usually the case. Since his goodtools als closed source and he is the single maintainer of everything the day will come when there are no updates anymore. wink
And since nobody has his sources what is confirmed by who, when, how, you would have to restart collecting info, redumping every game to see if it matches and and and...

I will partially quote bootgods post from the no-intro boards to demonstrate how inaccurate the goodtools (goodnes in this case) are:
Originally Posted By bootgod
Ok on to the good stuff. Note that I was using the latest goodnes to come up with the following things, in the future I will switch over to using BigFred's dats to make things easier.

The following changes need to be made regarding revisions:
4 Nin Uchi Mahjong (J).nes is RevA
Dragon Quest III (J).nes was marked RevA on back, but has v0 ROM (so leave alone I guess)
Dragon Quest IV (J).nes is RevA
Family Mahjong II - Shanghai heno Michi (J).nes appears to be RevA
Mach Rider (U) [h1].nes is RevA
Super Mario Bros. 3 (J) (PRG0).nes is RevA
Toukyou Pachi Slot Adventure (J) [!].nes is RevA
Tetris (J) [a1].nes is RevA

These have various incorrect goodnes tags that need to be fixed:
Digital Devil Monogatari - Megami Tensei II (J) [b1].nes is not bad [!]
Door Door (J) (FDS Hack).nes is not hack [!]
Dragon Ball 3 - Gokuu Den (J) [a1].nes should be moved to [!] for now
Famicom Jump - Eiyuu Retsuden (J) [f1].nes is not fixed [!]
Lode Runner (J) [b2].nes is not bad [!]
Ninja Jajamaru Kun (J) [t1].nes is not trained [!]
Raid on Bungeling Bay (J) [a1].nes should be moved to [!] for now

I'm not going to bother listing all the games that need to be upgraded to [!]

The following games are incorrectly "fixed" by the goodnes fixnes option (see the DB for correct values):
iNES Header Fixes - [--F---] -> Barcode World (J).nes.new.nes
iNES Header Fixes - [--F---] -> Digital Devil Monogatari - Megami Tensei II (J) [b1].nes.new.nes
iNES Header Fixes - [--F---] -> Door Door (J) (FDS Hack).nes.new.nes
iNES Header Fixes - [--F---] -> Family Boxing (J).nes.new.nes
iNES Header Fixes - [--F---] -> Famista '90 (J).nes.new.nes
iNES Header Fixes - [--F---] -> Famista '91 (J).nes.new.nes
iNES Header Fixes - [--F---] -> Famista '93 (J).nes.new.nes
iNES Header Fixes - [--F---] -> Final Lap (J).nes.new.nes
iNES Header Fixes - [--F---] -> Jajamaru Ninpou Chou (J) [!].nes.new.nes
iNES Header Fixes - [--F---] -> Kaijuu Monogatari (J).nes.new.nes
iNES Header Fixes - [--F---] -> Lasa-r Ishii no Childs Quest (J).nes.new.nes
iNES Header Fixes - [--F---] -> Metro-Cross (J).nes.new.nes
iNES Header Fixes - [--F---] -> Ninjara Hoi! (J).nes.new.nes
iNES Header Fixes - [--F---] -> Pro Yakyuu - Family Stadium '87 (J).nes.new.nes
iNES Header Fixes - [--F---] -> Pro Yakyuu - Family Stadium (J).nes.new.nes
iNES Header Fixes - [--F---] -> SD Gundam - Gachapon Senshi 2 - Capsule Senki (J).nes.new.nes
iNES Header Fixes - [--F---] -> SD Gundam - Gachapon Senshi 3 - Eiyuu Senki (J).nes.new.nes
iNES Header Fixes - [--F---] -> SD Gundam - Gachapon Senshi 4 - NewType Story (J).nes.new.nes
iNES Header Fixes - [--F---] -> Shin 4 Nin Uchi Mahjong - Yakuman Tengoku (J).nes.new.nes
iNES Header Fixes - [--F---] -> Sky Kid (J).nes.new.nes
iNES Header Fixes - [--F---] -> Tanigawa Kouji no Shougi Shinan 2 (J).nes.new.nes
iNES Header Fixes - [--F---] -> Tetris (J) [a1].nes.new.nes


PS: Some Trivia why those tools are named "goodxxx": Cowerings first tool was for the NES and he pondered about naming it "GoodNES" or "NESCafe". He chose the first and named all his other tools subsequently with "good" ;-)

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