Home Page Forums MAME MAME The SNES WIP topic

Actually they use a V810 for the Shougi AI.

They do this on a V60 based system (SSV) with 'jsk' Joryuu Syougi Kyoushitsu

and on a ST0016(Z80 core) based system with Mayjinsen and Mayjinsen 2.

The V810 program differs on each game, but they're interchangable, probably just improved / bugfixed / optimized AI between versions.

According to Dox there are also physical (wooden) Shougi boards / computers which use a v810, and probably the same AI software as was used on the arcade games. (which is probably why Seta used it, a proven AI that they didn't have to develop)

It wouldn't surprise me if one of the SNES chips was actually a V810, maybe with internal ROM, maybe with the software uploaded somewhere, or in the main rom shared? (or if the carts have simply never been opened, not dumped because the main cpu can't see it)

Sorry, I didn't mean to seem like I was deeply offended or anything. Hard to reflect mood in plain-text without lots of ^__^. Also note that I wasn't asking for credit for anything I've done.

As I said, just a pet peeve. You both seem to find it silly as well, which is why I pointed it out to etabeta in the first place.

That behind us ...


Absolutely not. There's no way in hell I want to burden the genius who put CPS-2 Razoola out of business to work on two godawful Shougi games.


A lot of people speculate on what is inside the chips. I don't see the point unless someone can dump the program ROMs from these chips. Even neviksti couldn't manage it. I believe he said they use NAND ROMs, and he can only stain NOR ROMs.

The interface between ST-0010 and ST-0011 is almost identical, so emulating it is similar. We "just" have to RE the chess AI. The ST-0018 is very different, but still uses a very simple communication system like all the other DSPs. I've RE'd how it works, what a few of the commands do and the way it transmits the board information to and from the coprocessor.

For the ST-0018, there are commands like:
- will this board result in a check(mate)?
- given this board, what is the best move for player A?

The former is simple, but getting the latter bit-perfect would be ... fun, to say the least.

I'm told that some would castrate you for daring to mention using a generic Shougi AI, but I really don't care personally if it's used as a placeholder until when and if someone can dump the PROMs. This is slightly hypocritical as I'm also of the belief that partially emulating something may potentially kill the motivation to do it the right way later on.


If we get the ST program ROMs before the DSP-1, it will be a crime against all that is good. But at least we can finally claim the entire library is emulated at last. Is there any way we can help get this process started? Would Guru mind helping? Let's see ...

S-DSP: probably not needed, bit-perfect except for mute pulse
S-PPU1/2: probably won't help, not much data missing
CIC: would help devcart makers maybe, but not us
DSP-1: very important, some games show timing issues
ST-0010,DSP-2,DSP-3,DSP-4,Cx4: already software emulated fairly decently, but still nice for timing purposes
S-DD1, SPC7110, S-RTC, OBC1: complete waste of time

Honestly, guys? The solution to each one of these chips that needs to be decapped is fairly simple:

Step 1: Save $200, and possibly a tip to encourage the use of more expensive processes if necessary (FIB rework, etc.)
Step 2: Ship $200 + game to Guru and say, "Hey, Guru, send this to that Decapitator guy!"
Step 3: ?????
Step 4: Get either binary data or an extremely high-res, perfectly-stitched die shot photographed in an appropriate manner, plus possible chip identification
Step 5: Emulate!

The Z80GB is a Nintendo design, not Sharp. Sharp real Z80s are probably the most common brand I've seen in arcade boards, and of course the ST-0016 has a real full Z80 in it.


Understood. It's just I've been adjacent to ground zero for pointless squabbling lately (ground one?) and so I'm especially sensitive to it.

As far as the rest, the process is defined. Send Guru the chip, he'll forward it to the decapper, and it'll be decapped either as time and funds allow or you can donate $200 to guarantee that chip will be decapped/read next. I just did so for the Saturn's SH-1 CD controller and I will certainly keep everyone informed how that goes.

JD: actually, the Paypal on the Decap page goes directly to the decapper, so you don't even have to send Guru any money

Okay, let's give it a shot then

Since the DSP-1 is the most critical, we'll start there.
http://board.byuu.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=241

Nope, you misquoted me - Seta ST010/011 is a NEC part.

From my email a few months ago:
I was thinking about the Seta ST010 chips used in SNES and also in "Twin Eagle II - The Rescue Mission" arcade. I may have "identified" it so to speak. This may be known but I didn't see it documented anywhere.

Looking at the chip label:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ST010_01.jpg
http://web.archive.org/web/20070223101622/nsrt.edgeemu.com/INFO/chip-pix/ST010.JPG

We see a DIP64/SDIP64 chip labeled as so:
Seta
ST010
D96050CW-012
9301KX708

D96050CW? That matches a format NEC commonly uses: uPD followed by five digits, two letters, and a three-digit speed number. up is commonly but not always dropped off NEC part numbers. u is sometimes � (micro).

For example, go here:
http://www.necel.com/cgi-bin/nesdis/dl_docpdf.cgi?lang=J&litcode=C11178EJCV0IF00

You'll see part numbers like upD96075CW.

Okay, so let's say that it really is a UPD96050CW-012. What is it? Well, really hard to say other than it seems to be a MCU of some kind, 64-pin.
But go look at this:
http://www.datasheetarchive.com/pdf-datasheets/Datasheets-16/DSA-317291.pdf
and you'll see uPD96100 listed as a "semi-custom cell-based LSI IC". Of course, this isn't conclusive at all. Still, maybe more info than you originally had. I'll see if I can look into this any further.

Of course, other than my initial contact with NEC, I haven't followed up yet. It is indeed proprietary so it's an uphill battle.

[EDIT] Ack, misunderstood - anyhow, more fuel for the fire.

I need to start saving for Model 2...

byuu: before we go out of our way to buy carts, I own (saved for decapping):
Super Mario Kart (has dsp-1, not 1b)
Dungeon Master (dsp-2)
SD Gundam GX (dsp-3)

So all we need is the decap funds for those three. I don't own a top gear 3000 cart so we will need that for dsp-4, and we need a cart with a guaranteed dsp-1b in it, like ballz 3d.

We also need a upd77c25 core to actually run the stuff once dumped. (I also need a upd77c20 core for running an old speech synth, but its practically identical to the upd77c25, just has a smaller stack, 1/4 the rom and half the ram)

I also own an F1 ROC II cart for ST-010 decapping.

LN

I'd like the dump the DSP-1B first. Supports the most games with the least bugs. DSP-2,3,4 are all one game a piece. Not good to debug our UDP77c25 core. But since we do eventually want all three DSP variants, I suppose we can start with Super Mario Kart if need be.

Anyway, I'll work on the UDP core once we have the PROM dumped

Since we don't know the exact Cx4/ST-001x core names, we should probably hold off on those. I do kind of wonder how hard it would be to RE just the binary blob, eg use heuristics to guess what the chip is doing. Probably a nightmare.

This will probably also be limited to bsnes and MESS. I doubt anyone else wants SuperFX-level speed penalties for DSP-n chip emulation. Maybe they can offer both, I intend to remove the simulators when I can. But I guess we'll find out

At least one person has expressed interest now. Should I pool up the money and send it all at once, or should we just have multiple people donate small chunks of money?