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Re: Apple HD20/HS20SC [Re: Sune] #55742 10/28/09 08:48 PM
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Works perfectly here with HFSExplorer 0.21 on XP SP3.



(Full-size image here)

Last edited by R. Belmont; 10/28/09 08:53 PM.
Re: Apple HD20/HS20SC [Re: R. Belmont] #55744 10/28/09 09:00 PM
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Oh, wow. You claim an HD with the parameters from the first message in this thread works at all in MESS? Wow, I need to add some assert()s. The sector size for Mac HDs is 512 bytes. No exceptions. Anything else and everything breaks.

ETA: I should mention that SVN now allows mounting 2 HDs so you can copy between them. Assuming both are bootable, -hard1 is the one it'll actually boot from.

Last edited by R. Belmont; 10/28/09 09:09 PM.
Re: Apple HD20/HS20SC [Re: R. Belmont] #55745 10/28/09 09:10 PM
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Anna Wu Offline
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Originally Posted By R. Belmont
Works perfectly here with HFSExplorer 0.21 on XP SP3.



Yes, to extract files. Unfortunately, you can not delete or add files.

Last edited by Anna Wu; 10/28/09 09:11 PM.
Re: Apple HD20/HS20SC [Re: Anna Wu] #55747 10/28/09 09:56 PM
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I can't run the SC setup utility on the new 512 bytes/sector chd (thanks for the tip, I wish I had known that from the beginning), mess keeps segfaulting on me when it probes the SCSI bus.

Apple says the sector size is 512 bytes user data + 20 bytes system data. 532 bytes pr sector and you get the accurate size for the HD20 which was 20,769,280 bytes:
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=1306


Re: Apple HD20/HS20SC [Re: Sune] #55748 10/28/09 10:03 PM
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Yes, that's totally unformatted capacity, which was widely quoted in the 80s because it made drives sound bigger. The "system data" is used and seen only by the microcontroller on the drive - all the Mac sees is 512 bytes. (For those familiar with the terms, this system data is what a "low level format" uses - formatting on the Mac for HFS is a high-level format).

ETA: The plus side is if you use the same c/h/s parameters with 512 byte sectors you get the actual usable capacity of the drive.

Last edited by R. Belmont; 10/28/09 10:09 PM.
Re: Apple HD20/HS20SC [Re: R. Belmont] #55750 10/28/09 10:38 PM
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Ah okay, thanks. Makes sense, you're not emulating a HD20, just serving a HFS file system.

I guess that means that it isn't possible to restore a CHD to a real Apple hard drive, or the opposite? What if some crazy person decided to use CHDman to dump an old Mac SCSI drive? Wouldn't it read 532 bytes/sector then?

Re: Apple HD20/HS20SC [Re: R. Belmont] #55751 10/28/09 10:39 PM
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Ok. Rev #6209 should fix the crashing (and the long-standing bugzilla Mac HD crash bug).

Install tips: when installing 6.0.8 onto an HDD, choose "Custom" and select "All Macintosh system software" and "32-bit QuickDraw" so that your HDD image will work properly with the SE/30 and IIcx drivers (plus future drivers). Do not install any AppleTalk/AppleShare stuff.

Re: Apple HD20/HS20SC [Re: Sune] #55752 10/28/09 10:46 PM
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Originally Posted By Sune
Ah okay, thanks. Makes sense, you're not emulating a HD20, just serving a HFS file system.

I guess that means that it isn't possible to restore a CHD to a real Apple hard drive, or the opposite? What if some crazy person decided to use CHDman to dump an old Mac SCSI drive? Wouldn't it read 532 bytes/sector then?


Not at all. I *am* emulating an HD20 - SCSI harddisks in MAME and MESS always identify as one of the 2 model strings allowed for the HD20. And I have successfully booted raw CHDMAN dumps from several physical Macs on the emulation.

I'm not sure how to explain this better than my previous post, but I'll try again. The "system data" Apple cites is used by the microcontroller inside the drive to track where sectors are and such. There is no way for anything outside of the drive (ie, the Mac, or if you hook it up to a PC or whatever to dump it) to ever see that data or even know that it exists. The Mac sees the HDD only as however many 512 byte sectors. It cannot and will never see the system data.

Put in floppy disk terms, when you request that the OS pull sectors off the floppy you don't want the address marks and index bits and crap, you just want the data. The HDD's microcontroller enforces that: you can only ever see the data.

Last edited by R. Belmont; 10/28/09 10:50 PM.
Re: Apple HD20/HS20SC [Re: R. Belmont] #55756 10/29/09 12:22 AM
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Okay, thanks for "cutting it out in cardboard" as the famous Danish saying goes.

And thanks for fixing the SC setup issue, I got everything working easily this time, 6.0.8 is up and running on the new chd, installed from Apple supplied disk images.
I got all the stuff copied over from my first install too with no problems. Smooth ride all the way.

I kept the installation simple and installed for the MacPlus only, I'd rather have Mac II on its own chd.
Maybe I'll upgrade to an SE/30 when I can get a keyboard for it! MESS is very accurate, I read somewhere that sometimes the SE/30 was sold without keyboard.

All of this is in 64-bit MESS/SDL 1.2.4 btw. Your Mac Plus driver is hereby 64-bit smoke-tested on 32-bit 10.6.1.

I'll check for the mouse-stuck-on-horizontal-axis again on my new installation - I found another game that does it, an old four-in-a-row game.

Re: Apple HD20/HS20SC [Re: Sune] #55757 10/29/09 12:28 AM
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Anna:

Try using a newer SC Setup utility (v7.3.5 or something I think) to update the system driver on the hard drive before booting it on the IIcx.

Thanks for your help; and for bringing some life to the forum.

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