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Re: Fixed software lists [Re: Dr.Zer0] #58074
01/15/10 02:45 PM
01/15/10 02:45 PM
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Stiletto Offline
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I was thinking there might be some sort of "list checksumming" utility.

Ideally I would like to see external fixed software lists so that the updating of the lists can be decoupled from the updating of the emulator. However, I was thinking that you could do a "list checksum" in order to prove that the list is valid, and build that into the emulator. If list checksum = 0345592B, then list = genesis.list, go ahead on loading list. However, if an interim update to the list went out, then what?

If you were to go with external lists, you would need some sort of validation process.

*just thinking aloud*

Re: Fixed software lists [Re: Stiletto] #58076
01/15/10 03:54 PM
01/15/10 03:54 PM
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Germany
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Duke Offline
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Germany
Why would you need a validation process?

Re: Fixed software lists [Re: etabeta78] #58077
01/15/10 04:02 PM
01/15/10 04:02 PM
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Haze Offline
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Originally Posted By etabeta78
Originally Posted By Anna Wu
Personally, I no need because it blow up the memory usage/space consumption.


?!?

given the fact no code has been written so far to actively use lists in MESS, it's definitely too early to state that it will blow up anything smirk

of course, the size of the source might become bigger with lists, but we could offer lists as a separate download (especially because they will be updated less often than the rest of the emulator, after the initial fixes)


The space / memory the lists take is minimal compared to the memory available on modern systems.

The problem with the dats etc. being *external* is that it means if you want to use functionality like -romident then MESS has to load and parse the files before it will work, this slows things down and is just irritating (and the results will depend on what dats you have, which is also less than desirable)

Nobody is proposing limiting what MESS can do in any way, the proposal is simply that software lists provide a list of media associated with a game in a way which makes accessing it easier (via 8 letter system name + 8 letter software name) and likewise making launching it easier.

All the existing functionality should remain, but again, things will become easier to use due to it being able to call up software lists for known software in addition to the current methods.

MESS does need to become easier to use, whether the 'hardcore' users like it or not. MAME doesn't really have to make such efforts because arcade games are straightforward.

It seems the project is somewhat lacking in any leadership as far as these issues are concerned, so I can only tell you what would make MESS a more attractive project to both use, and work on from my point of view. As somebody who finds the current systems unfriendly, alienating, and hard to work with even to somebody highly familiar with MAME I do hope some of what I'm saying makes sense.


Re: Fixed software lists [Re: Haze] #58078
01/15/10 04:19 PM
01/15/10 04:19 PM
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Just Desserts Offline
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Originally Posted By Haze
The space / memory the lists take is minimal compared to the memory available on modern systems.


To quote Walter Sobchak, "The Chinaman is not the issue here, dude".

Once MESS is on someone's hard drive or resident in memory, how much space it takes up is immaterial. However, it seems for all the world like adding all of these lists has the potential to add well over ten megs, possibly tens of megs, of data to the executable. Are you going to pay the bandwidth overages when MESS's executable size bloats to Jupiterian proportions compared to the already gargantuan MAME?

Re: Fixed software lists [Re: Just Desserts] #58079
01/15/10 04:27 PM
01/15/10 04:27 PM
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Argentina
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franciscohs Offline
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Originally Posted By Just Desserts

Once MESS is on someone's hard drive or resident in memory, how much space it takes up is immaterial. However, it seems for all the world like adding all of these lists has the potential to add well over ten megs, possibly tens of megs, of data to the executable. Are you going to pay the bandwidth overages when MESS's executable size bloats to Jupiterian proportions compared to the already gargantuan MAME?


Is this REALLY a problem?, I mean, I have really no idea how MESS handles this, but it would have to be a REAL problem if I were to change a design decision that IMHO would defeat all the purpose of what's being proposed.

Specially nowadays that there are so many distribution channels available.

Re: Fixed software lists [Re: Just Desserts] #58080
01/15/10 04:30 PM
01/15/10 04:30 PM
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Haze Offline
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Originally Posted By Just Desserts
Originally Posted By Haze
The space / memory the lists take is minimal compared to the memory available on modern systems.


To quote Walter Sobchak, "The Chinaman is not the issue here, dude".

Once MESS is on someone's hard drive or resident in memory, how much space it takes up is immaterial. However, it seems for all the world like adding all of these lists has the potential to add well over ten megs, possibly tens of megs, of data to the executable. Are you going to pay the bandwidth overages when MESS's executable size bloats to Jupiterian proportions compared to the already gargantuan MAME?


well, information uses space, even if you make the lists external, they still take up space and use bandwidth, and if you want to actually document the software and have fully functional -romident etc. then can't be avoided. The information is as big as it is unless you want to revert back to CRC32 only, but that would be dumb.

MESS has a smaller userbase than MAME anyway, I don't think it's really relevant and doubt the impact will be too high.

I think being able to properly identify software is far more important than the size of the exe, or bandwidth used, you'll always find people willing to host mirrors. I believe a lot of hosts are more concerned over CPU usage these days than actual data transfer?

I actually wonder if having the MESS SVN public actually saves bandwidth, or causes more to be used. It would be quite nice IMHO if the MAME SVN was public too.

It's a silly argument, almost as silly as the ROM sites screaming at the MAME project 'Don't support the encrypted NeoGeo sets, they're too big' and 'Your Laserdisc format is fucking stupid becuase the CHDs are 25gig'. The important thing about these projects is that they do what needs doing, at whatever cost, properly.





Re: Fixed software lists [Re: Haze] #58081
01/15/10 04:37 PM
01/15/10 04:37 PM
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Posts: 500
Bradford, UK
incog Offline
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lets get started making these lists then, i just wish hashtab didnt give out all its checksums in upper case

Re: Fixed software lists [Re: incog] #58082
01/15/10 04:40 PM
01/15/10 04:40 PM
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Haze Offline
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Originally Posted By incog
lets get started making these lists then, i just wish hashtab didnt give out all its checksums in upper case


I've submitted a whole bunch of them for consoles to eta, I kinda wish he would check them in so that the refinement process can start.

really what you want is some custom tool to do a quick pass for you, I used a hacked up -romident from MAME for the first pass, but there are better ways wink (eta has the required hacks too)

Re: Fixed software lists [Re: incog] #58083
01/15/10 04:40 PM
01/15/10 04:40 PM
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Posts: 3,687
Trondheim, Norway
etabeta78 Offline
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in case you're planning to create lists, I have lists for all main consoles already done with CRC32 & SHA1 (including n64, gb, gbc, gba, snes)

nes will follow as soon as I have info on the properly split dumps

jfyi

EDIT: and refinements can start with the present lists. what's holding back progresses is MAME 0.136u1 being still unreleased. we'll have to make MESS properly compile again, before going on with the list work.

about my lists mentioned above: they will add around 3mb to the source, hence I'd like to be sure nobody complains before making the commit. in the weekend, I'll mirror these missing lists for who's interested, though.

Re: Fixed software lists [Re: etabeta78] #58084
01/15/10 04:51 PM
01/15/10 04:51 PM
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Haze Offline
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Originally Posted By etabeta78
in case you're planning to create lists, I have lists for all main consoles already done with CRC32 & SHA1 (including n64, gb, gbc, gba, snes)

nes will follow as soon as I have info on the properly split dumps

jfyi

EDIT: and refinements can start with the present lists. what's holding back progresses is MAME 0.136u1 being still unreleased. we'll have to make MESS properly compile again, before going on with the list work.

about my lists mentioned above: they will add around 3mb to the source, hence I'd like to be sure nobody complains before making the commit. in the weekend, I'll mirror these missing lists for who's interested, though.


Well FYI the main things that often need doing (aside from improving the 8 letter games and setting up clones) is that due to the filesystem sort order it often ends up putting games tagged with (Beta) before (Europe) etc. so sometimes the first one in the list is the Beta. Obviously it's nothing a bit of shuffling around won't fix, and far less painful than trying to make all the lists by hand :-)

For the megadrive stuff I think it took me about 4 hours of work after the list generation to get things sorted out to a reasonable level as used by the current HazeMD (the previous version was entirely done by hand as I was testing each game in the emulation as I added it, so that made sense) Now that the lists are in MESS I'm more prepared to further refine the names as some of the generated ones are still pretty nasty.

Are there naming preferences in MESS? I think some of the NoIntro names etc. are taken from the boxes, not the games. (Japanese name for Castle of Illusion comes to mind)

Of course to start cleaning things up I'll probably need SVN access, it's an incremental thing and I doubt eta is going to want me to send improvements to 5/6 set names each and every time I have a free 10 minutes to make them. If that's too much of a problem then I can leave it to other people to tidy up the naming tho.

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