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Haze #59870 03/09/10 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Haze
and you might find people start using the SNES driver that way, but a lot of people will probably be put off by the poor performance and hit & miss compatibility anyway

latest code gained around 10-15% of speed compared to 0.135, on my EEEPC. it helps to only draw half of the pixels we used to draw.

there is still some space for optimization, but "hit & miss compatibility" due to the lack of proper CPU timing will have priority...

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"Good enough and familiar" is better than "new and better". Ask Internet Explorer.

byuu got caught in the trap of believing what people *said* they wanted from bsnes (filters, add-on chip support) and ended up with a bunch more code to maintain and no particular increase in users.

Similarly, while I think things like having the software lists will make MESS easier to use up front, I don't think it'll have any significant impact on usage. Even if it were merged with MAME the net effect would be that more people would have the code but wouldn't actually use it. MAMEPlus has included MESS drivers forever (and a ton of filters!) and makes them as easy as any other console emulator through it's GUI and nobody uses the MESS drivers there either.

Ultimately you have to be working on emulation because you really enjoy it for itself. If you're in it as a user popularity contest you *will* burn out and quit. That's the real lesson of the parade of would-be MAME killers. FBA survives because Barry's making the emulator he wants to play, and that's what matters.

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Originally Posted by R. Belmont
Similarly, while I think things like having the software lists will make MESS easier to use up front, I don't think it'll have any significant impact on usage. Even if it were merged with MAME the net effect would be that more people would have the code but wouldn't actually use it. MAMEPlus has included MESS drivers forever (and a ton of filters!) and makes them as easy as any other console emulator through it's GUI and nobody uses the MESS drivers there either.

Most of the Megadrive reports I've had are from Mame32plus users, not MESS or plain HazeMD, although half of them have turned out to be because of dodgy compile options people often use with said build, or were due to bad roms because of it using the MESS driver rather than the hazemd fixed lists.

I think a lot of people just give up because they can't work out where to put the roms tho due to MESS expecting everything in very specific software folders, rather than just the correct zipname in 'roms'. I very much hope that once the software lists are in then MESS will happily look in the root roms folder for bios + software roms if it doesn't find them in the system folders.

Saying nobody uses them is pushing it a bit tho. I suspect more people use them there than in MESS which again might not be helping the reputation because they tend to be less stable than in the official MESS releases.



Haze #59873 03/09/10 02:45 PM
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For Megadrive, the fixed lists will actually make it harder though. Right now you simply point it to the specific ROM file you want to play, whereas with the lists you have to have them in the specific folder. Existing MAME users will understand that concept, but a lot of noobs actually give up on MAME because they don't.

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Well, I for one actually love using MESS for systems like the SNES. Granted, I'm sad when a game I like has video errors (The Adventures of Batman & Robin, Tetris Attack, etc), but I can deal. I'm a big fan of the simplicity of MESS (and MAME, for that matter) - crisp and unfiltered graphics at any resolution, great in-game menu, easy to configure controls on-the-fly...

I only switch to bSNES when I hit a roadblock with a game (or I need to use the multitap). Otherwise, it's MESS all the way. I've been spreading the word to my friends as well, though I can't say if it's helping!

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Originally Posted by R. Belmont
For Megadrive, the fixed lists will actually make it harder though. Right now you simply point it to the specific ROM file you want to play, whereas with the lists you have to have them in the specific folder. Existing MAME users will understand that concept, but a lot of noobs actually give up on MAME because they don't.

I think there are enough 'existing MAME users' for the concept to be well understood, and for people to get help when they don't understand it. Besides, the old mechanism will still exist, but anybody wanting to report bugs will be expected to use the fixed lists and proper setnames I'm guessing. (or at least that would be my requirement for taking any bug reports given the number of times the problem has come down to 'bad rom' when people have reported things to me in the past)


byuu #59876 03/09/10 03:10 PM
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EDIT: btw, this is another proof that few people actually use MESS for SNES: nobody noticed those games were broken since last summer... well, hopefully things will get better in future

Oh I totally called that Star Wars bug back in this thread...don't make me go look for it. Yes there are users. I will go find some more bugs now as it looks like Etabeta (you rock!) cleared my bugzilla entries. Was having compile problems last night (something megadrive related) so I couldn't test. I'll try again tonight and post my error somewhere if I can't figure it out (maybe user related).

As a long time MESS user, there are things that would increase the user base. I am game to give feedback but we need a new thread for that.

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Originally Posted by ht1848
Oh I totally called that Star Wars bug back in this thread...don't make me go look for it.

you are right... shame on me

http://www.bannister.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=54239#Post54239

I must have forgotten about it. But at least we have it fixed now, and I hope the garbage graphics has gone as well with the latest svn

Originally Posted by ht1848
Yes there are users. I will go find some more bugs now as it looks like Etabeta (you rock!) cleared my bugzilla entries. Was having compile problems last night (something megadrive related) so I couldn't test. I'll try again tonight and post my error somewhere if I can't figure it out (maybe user related).

current svn should compile fine (see http://mess.redump.net/mess:compile_failure )

bug reports are of course always welcome, especially if you can compare the current behavior with MESS 0.135 (0.136 had known problem, so it's not a good comparison), just to separate newly introduced issues from old problems

EDIT: also, please use a revision beyond 7543 to test... there were regressions with 7540 (sprite table creation is still not ready to be moved in the proper place, and I would prefer to avoid big regression until 0.137 is out wink )

Last edited by etabeta78; 03/09/10 05:05 PM.
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The problem is MESS has the reverse reputation, it's been such a god-damn awful emulator for most of the things (which people care about) it emulates for so long that hardly anybody is likely to remember it in a positive light

There certainly is a jack-of-all-trades vibe when really, really incomplete modules are left enabled in the default build.

Yet stuff like the CD-i and Super A'can support is amazing, and really makes MESS stand out, even though that's incomplete.

As long as etabeta and co stay on top of SNES bug reports when they come in, I suppose it's great. But a dead, unattended module is probably only undermining confidence when there are better alternatives out there.

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the Console 'scene' tends to be very secretive, with more people concerned about making their software the best, and as a result not being helpful to others

Yes, the Saturn scene has been substantially held back by this. Thankfully Yabause is starting to make some serious headway.

The Genesis scene is the saddest. Kega Fusion, Regen and now Retrocopy. As if anyone even cares anymore, yet all the big-name Genesis emulators are as closed as could be.

The dead Gens' license isn't even legal, as it still uses the 15-year-old Starscream core that is non-commercial along with the GPL.

I remain extremely grateful for your work on HazeMD. Steve is a great guy, but if I play any Genesis games, HazeMD will be my first choice.

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btw, let me know if you want to be credited for those lines

Nah, no worries.

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"Good enough and familiar" is better than "new and better". Ask Internet Explorer.

I was going to make that comparison, but at least IE6 is fading below 20% now. Maybe if ZSNESv2 (aka IE7) were to come out, I'd feel less bad about it.

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byuu got caught in the trap of believing what people *said* they wanted from bsnes (filters, add-on chip support) and ended up with a bunch more code to maintain and no particular increase in users.

I don't know if I believed it or not, but I was happy to oblige the people looking for game bugs. You are correct of course, I've gained probably 10-20 people in return for a dozen filters, widescreen distortion modes, 7-zip multi-archive support, etc combined.

I've been moving away from that model, the new versions split all the filters, all the compression formats, all the excess into separate external DLLs.

I was even able to get rid of the bullshit "header heuristics" crap in favor of a pure XML-based mapping system (ala Nestopia) in the latest beta. The snesreader library generates the pitiful made-up mappings we're used to if you don't have a real XML mapping file to describe the board layout.

On my own PC, I don't use those plugin DLLs at all.

Now when it comes to special chips, they have absolutely nothing to do with the base hardware. You can put an 8-core Nehalem-EX inside an SNES cart if you want. You can hook up an MRI machine to it if you wanted. But end users just can't grasp that concept. We really have no choice but to support those; and MESS would seem to agree smirk

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Ultimately you have to be working on emulation because you really enjoy it for itself. If you're in it as a user popularity contest you *will* burn out and quit.

Yes, thank you very much. Behind my rant, this was the message I wanted to convey.

It's part of what makes me sick about closed source emulators. All that wasted testing, all that wasted research, all for something people will get tired of because they're in it for all the wrong reasons.

-----

As for myself, I don't wish to bemoan the success of others, and I really don't care about popularity. My goal is just to get as many people as I can onto a better emulator, regardless of which one that is.

The 13-year-old VRAM write bug has been the Achilles' Heel of the SNES translation scene. The 40-file-extension support has made a mockery of file load windows. The IPS-only support and refusal to obsolete copier headers has given patching a flip-of-the-coin chance of working and complicated loading. The reliance on magical voodoo heuristics to parse single binary blobs has made ROM loading a nightmare for every developer to date. And the bugs ... I spent seven years translating a game that 70% of people still can't even play.

The entire SNES scene is stuck in 1997, and we don't have the problem the NES scene does with 200 million emulators to choose from. All we need is one emulator to take charge and we can improve so much.

I really do hope you guys get some real market share. I'd love to be able to work with an active team who cares about sanity, and is willing to inconvenience people in the short term to make everything easier for everyone in the long term.

byuu #59883 03/09/10 05:32 PM
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Ranting aside, what do you guys think of the XML format for mapping SNES games?

Spec here:
http://board.byuu.org/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=542

Theory is that a real SNES does not look at the internal header bits to determine how to map it. And while with enough magic we are able to get all known games playable, the maps are most definitely not correct. Memory is mapped where nothing should be and vice versa.

The XML mapping is meant to describe the physical board layout in correlation to the popular SFC images. And although it doesn't directly give us perfect mapping, it allows for the possibility.

We just need to combine PCB identification:
http://users.tpg.com.au/advlink/spx/list.html

With the layouts mapped out by Overload. And lastly either keep an internal database associating games with their PCB IDs, or get tools like GoodSNES to include the proper XML maps.

And voila, no more header magic.

The point of XML over a strict internal database SHA256=PCB list is to allow ROM hacks and translations a means with which to run. Given the dozens upon dozens of triple-A translations for this system, it's very important to allow for this.

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