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Re: Fixed software lists [Re: Haze] #63303 07/08/10 06:30 PM
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ASH Offline
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Originally Posted By Haze
Originally Posted By ASH
so just to clarify something...

the soft list for floppy's and tapes...
will they auto load these files I.E. on the spectrum you select Manic Miner.tzx and M.E.S.S. will insert the tape : auto type LOAD "" [enter] : start tape

or will we still have to learn that bit?


For now I believe you'll still have to learn that bit. I think it's important to get the lists implemented first, thoughts on any kind of scripted automation can come later, once things are more stable, and it will have to be done at a different level to standard inps which are too prone to breaking between versions.


Ok

Just checking smile

Re: Fixed software lists [Re: Haze] #63309 07/08/10 09:48 PM
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ht1848 Offline
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Originally Posted By Haze
For now I believe you'll still have to learn that bit. I think it's important to get the lists implemented first, thoughts on any kind of scripted automation can come later, once things are more stable, and it will have to be done at a different level to standard inps which are too prone to breaking between versions.


I agree later sounds good, but could the cheat system be able to support something like an "auto-load" cheat where it types a fixed command if enabled? Just thinking out loud. Software list is fist victory.

Re: Fixed software lists [Re: ht1848] #63310 07/08/10 10:01 PM
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R. Belmont Offline OP
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Cheats can't type, that would be dreadful.

Re: Fixed software lists [Re: R. Belmont] #63312 07/08/10 10:42 PM
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Haze Offline
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yeah, it's going to need some thought, typing is the least of the problems when you move on to some obscure Japanese mouse driven systems.

likewise, how to deal with Windows based games, I'm assuming there will be some factory install images associated with each set, for at least Windows, installing the entire OS each time for every game you need to test when making changes doesn't make sense from a testing perspective.

Lots of problems to be solved, eventually, but for now good progress can be made by implementing software lists for cases that CAN be handled.

Re: Fixed software lists [Re: etabeta78] #63314 07/08/10 11:20 PM
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Originally Posted By etabeta78

my point about multiple software in a single tape/disk was that if you're going to include the image of a floppy disk which was created by my cousin to give me a couple of tiny games, then this kind of image can be thrown away

I've specified this because for some exotic computer a few games appear to be available only inside multigame floppies which do not represent at all a real piece of software and, as such, is not really worth the inclusion...


Do you mean a case where commercial software was pirated onto a compilation, and now only this compilation, not the original, has been archived? In that case, I would want the compilation to be properly documented as the best available copy of the game. It could be removed later if an original was found.

Re: Fixed software lists [Re: etabeta78] #63315 07/08/10 11:24 PM
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Originally Posted By etabeta78
EDIT: also, a couple of guidelines:
- put multi-disk games inside a single <software> entry of the list, as separate <part>s (this might change later, but it is the current plan). same goes for different sides of a tape


How do you then select each individual image within that piece of software? Currently it only tries to load the first image. That would be rather necessary when it comes to disk swapping.


- Barry Rodewald
Re: Fixed software lists [Re: mahlemiut] #63317 07/09/10 05:41 AM
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Originally Posted By mahlemiut
How do you then select each individual image within that piece of software? Currently it only tries to load the first image. That would be rather necessary when it comes to disk swapping.


MIcko has some plan. that's why I suggested this line.

If the plan does not come together or it turns out not to be easy to use, we will split the files in the lists wink

Originally Posted By Haze
likewise, how to deal with Windows based games, I'm assuming there will be some factory install images associated with each set, for at least Windows, installing the entire OS each time for every game you need to test when making changes doesn't make sense from a testing perspective.


I'm not 100% sure we should have any factory install... or you would end up with 'formats' like hdi o whd which are very friendly but do not document how the original software was distributed... MESS might support this kind of formats with the old-style loading but I'm torn about adding them to lists.

while the OS is not a problem (the first time you load up a driver you simply have to install an Operative System into it, then you keep the CHD in your computer to avoid the need of reinstalling it), I don't have a ready answer for the games requiring installation.

at first, the easy solution is to install them the first time you play them, and then not to remove the CHD from your computer to avoid the need of re-installing it... like you would have done with the HD on your old computer smile

Originally Posted By ranger_lennier
Do you mean a case where commercial software was pirated onto a compilation, and now only this compilation, not the original, has been archived? In that case, I would want the compilation to be properly documented as the best available copy of the game. It could be removed later if an original was found.


while I agree about e.g. preserving tape->floppy user-made copies as the best-known image for some games until a proper tape can be preserved, a few days ago I stumbled into some user made disk collections for Japanese computers which consist of 1 or 2 .d88 files containing ~10 games each (many of them taken from tapes). Among these games there are a bunch of them which are not available separately, but I don't think we should include these compilations in our lists: they still remain available in sets like TOSEC if someone badly wants to play the game to see the quality of the conversion, but the software list should only mention the game as undumped (and wanted)

on this topic, I plan to eventually add to Wiki some more list of undumped non-proto carts (and tapes and disks later on) that I'm currently documenting into xml (see e.g. tutor of sordm5)

Re: Fixed software lists [Re: etabeta78] #63318 07/09/10 08:25 AM
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Haze Offline
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Originally Posted By etabeta78

at first, the easy solution is to install them the first time you play them, and then not to remove the CHD from your computer to avoid the need of re-installing it... like you would have done with the HD on your old computer smile


It's not an amazingly practical solution tho, is it? There comes a point of making compromises, otherwise we may as well be telling people to mount a bunch of roms on a PCIe card to run anything in MAME, because the original games required physical ROM chips to run etc.

Sometimes if you're blitzing through things wanting to test them out you need a ready-made, stable, usable, reproducable test environment, which usually means clearing out all your CHD diffs, NVrams etc. and in a case like this would result in having to reinstall everything for every game.

In the real world, that doesn't work and you'll just find many things getting broken because nobody has the time to go through that process to test them. It's something that MESS will have to deal with eventually, even it it means some hierarchy of clean OS CHDs and installed-game diffs to test with as a listed alternative to the install media.

Re: Fixed software lists [Re: Haze] #63319 07/09/10 09:50 AM
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"eventually" is the key word wink

especially because no i286-i386 is really working to the point to install a fully featured OS (except maybe for X68000 driver), and the other drivers which comes close to this, i.e. the early IBM PC drivers, have other issues with HDs since a few months and you cannot basically mount any CHD.

you can see this as a long way towards the 'perfectly usable' emulation of PC-like home computers: a journey with many intermediate steps, in my opinion

1. the HD issues mentioned above for early IBM PC shall be ironed out

2. once we have working emulation of hard disk for more DOS-compatible machines, we might want to discuss how to handle HDs:

- on one side we definitely want to have writable (and hence uncompressed) CHD for non-gaming emulation
- on the other side, there are situation when we might want to make a CHD not writable anymore, compress it and start having the changes saved as diffs.

Ideally, chdman might have an option to switch between the two.

3. The final step, which I really have not many ideas about at this stage, would be to think about how to simplify the life to people which only want to play or to devs which want to rapidly test ingame issues

in any case, until step 3, we should simply preserve images of the bootable floppy and CD-ROM rather than hacking up an incomplete CHD-alike format containing pre-installed games...

Re: Fixed software lists [Re: etabeta78] #63325 07/09/10 06:20 PM
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ASH Offline
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well here's a suggestion

could we make the software list's region specific

I.E. Snes Pal (Euro) , Snes NTSC (Jpn,USA)

this would help when loading carts instead of the (this cart is designed for use with pal systems only)

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