Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 3 of 5 1 2 3 4 5
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,695
Likes: 1
Very Senior Member
Very Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,695
Likes: 1
from a developer point of view it *might* be easier to only have a couple of such a configurations for each systems, i.e. only a list of the enabled/disabled devices (say e.g. the number and type of floppy drives, the controllers to be plugged and the amount of RAM) without including the game names. then the softlist xml can refer the appropriate configuration and the system can be started with the correct devices by invoking the current softlist commands. I think this was the proposal Arbee is talking about.

but at the same time not including the game names would make life harder for the users (depending on the way this gets implemented, you may end up to have 9 different things to remember[1]: the current 7 + the command to load the config + the name of the config)

the concept is interesting, but I'm skeptical about the number of configurations you would need if you want to add the game names to the config itself (as proposed by haze): you would need ~10k configurations to play c64 games and I'm not so sure this would really makes things cleaner...


[1] even if Haze's 7 things to remember drop down to 3 for people using a frontend, which include the majority of users...

Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 17,316
Likes: 280
R
Very Senior Member
Very Senior Member
R Offline
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 17,316
Likes: 280
I don't see why you'd need a configuration per game. The softlist already specifies for each game what the names of the discs are. C64 games would refer to "1 floppy with joystick" or "2 floppies with joystick". PCE-CD games would be 99% covered by "standard" or "6-button" configs. And so on.

I will disagree that we need to provide configs for every possible configuration a game could run on; the point of softlists in the first place is to provide sane known-working defaults.

Last edited by R. Belmont; 09/19/10 01:05 PM.
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,695
Likes: 1
Very Senior Member
Very Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,695
Likes: 1
Originally Posted by R. Belmont
I don't see why you'd need a configuration per game.

that was Haze's proposal to resurrect the

"mess system gamename"

launching option... I think at that point it would be easier to create a .bat file for each games or to use a frontend.

but the idea of having some pre-defined config sounds interesting once we can add/remove devices at start

Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 17,316
Likes: 280
R
Very Senior Member
Very Senior Member
R Offline
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 17,316
Likes: 280
I don't understand why "mess system gamename" needs a config per game.

"system gamename" would allow us to locate the software in the system's list, and from there the combination of the software and the configuration referenced by the software should be sufficient to launch the game.

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,695
Likes: 1
Very Senior Member
Very Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,695
Likes: 1
because a same gamename can be present in the floppy or in the tape list (e.g. for a game which was separately released in two formats)

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 238
T
Senior Member
Senior Member
T Offline
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 238
This feedback is making sense to me now, at least from a user's point of view and a maker of front-ends.

Using WinUAE as an example only, it allows me to progressively retrieve configurations that eventually leads to the software image to boot, simply by appending another "-f" option for it to load more parameters, replacing any existing ones from prior loads.

Using SuperFrog as an example:

$ uae -f cfg/model/a1200pal.uae -f cfg/os/ks300.uae -f cfg/game/superfrog.uae

The a1200pal.uae config has all of the "standard" machine configurations required for a European Amiga 1200, except the Kickstart ROM, because it could be different:

$ cat cfg/os/ks300.uae
config_description=Kickstart 3.0
rom_path=./uae/roms/
kickstart_rom_file=./uae/roms/kickstart30.rom

... and then making it convenient for the end user, I attach FOUR floppy drives, because we can and the machine & game support it... how many of us had four floppy drives? wink

$ cat cfg/game/superfrog.uae
config_description=Superfrog
;must be in PAL mode
ntsc=false
chipset_refreshrate=50
gfx_width=800
gfx_height=600
gfx_top_windowed=0
gfx_left_windowed=0
gfx_width_windowed=800
gfx_height_windowed=600
gfx_width_fullscreen=800
gfx_height_fullscreen=600
floppy0=./uae/disks/Superfrog_Disk0.zip
floppy0type=0
floppy1=./uae/disks/Superfrog_Disk1.zip
floppy1type=0
floppy2=./uae/disks/Superfrog_Disk2.zip
floppy2type=0
floppy3=./uae/disks/Superfrog_Disk3.zip
floppy3type=0
nr_floppies=4


I could have merged all of this into one config file, per game title, but it becomes a PITA to maintain when new emulator engines come out and add/change/delete parameters and/or their default values. So, separation like this is reusable for all, i.e., I take Kingpin Bowling for the same a1200pal config, but I substitute it with the Kickstart 3.1 ROM and only 1 floppy:

$ uae -f cfg/model/a1200pal.uae -f cfg/os/ks310.uae -f cfg/game/kingpin.uae

$ cat cfg/os/ks310.uae
config_description=Kickstart 3.1
rom_path=./uae/roms/
kickstart_rom_file=./uae/roms/kickstart31.rom

$ cat cfg/game/kingpin.uae
config_description=King Pin Bowling
floppy0=./uae/disks/King Pin Bowling (1995)(Team 17).zip
floppy0type=0
nr_floppies=1

Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,782
Likes: 38
H
Very Senior Member
Very Senior Member
H Offline
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,782
Likes: 38
Quote
the concept is interesting, but I'm skeptical about the number of configurations you would need if you want to add the game names to the config itself (as proposed by haze): you would need ~10k configurations to play c64 games and I'm not so sure this would really makes things cleaner...

you'd need a sensible config (ie what the game was intended to run on) for each game, 10k? In the worst case it will be slightly more than the number of entries in the software lists, to accomodate multiple 'sensible configs' per game.

Also while it would be wise to keep the quickstart names *short* you wouldn't be limited to 8 letters as they don't refer directly to files, they reference the software lists.

XMLs can have fragments etc. so in reality for something like the Amiga you'd have a fragment defining an expanded a500, and include that in the quickstarts.

because devices are disabled by default unless you specify them most of the config lines would be pretty short.

if you wanted to override something in a quickstart you could import it instead using a command eg.

Mess -base <quickstartconfigname> -flop4 blah

otherwise it defines an absolute configuration for the running system so that people can't f**k it up ;-)

you could also have a

Mess -listqsdetails <quickstartconfig> which would actually output the FULL commandline of hardware to be enabled / disabled etc. that that config would expand to if you were doing it manually. (which I imagine could be rather long)

Auto-suggest could suggest the quickstart names (and possibly media with similar names)

An easy (and auto-suggested) disc/tape variation is easier than remembering all the configurations.

mess c64 rainbowflop
will always be easier than
mess c64 -enabledevice fddtype0 -flop0 blah0 -flop1 blah2
(or whatever)

The quickstart could also define a message to display at startup / in a menu telling them what command is needed to load the game beyond that. It would be helpful!

keeping in mind that a default c64 does not even have a floppy drive, and I'm guessing there are multiple different types of floppy drive.. and at the end of the day a basic user really just wants something that WORKs, not something where they have to remember to enable a bunch of extra devices manually, actually know which type of floppy drive to add, and the correct name for that specific device.

(likewise Amstrad CPC 464, that didn't have an FDD by default and multiple types were available, a default 464 in MESS shouldn't have a floppy drive. Most games shipped on tape where your quickstart wouldn't even bother to enable that device / drive. For the ones that shipped on disc, the quickstart would tell it to enable the correct drive rom, taking care of this problem for you. 'Just use a 6128 which already has one' etc. isn't an answer, because a fair amount of 464 floppy software isn't compatible with a 6128. Having to remember the commandlines to enable the right type of floppy drive manually is too much work)

that's why I'm suggesting an XML of configs, to launch the games with.

It allows the easy launching syntax of

MESS <systename> <quickstartconfigname> for basic use

It allows sensible auto-suggestion

It does the legwork of setting up the correct devices for a piece of software for you.

It keeps the base hardware configurations in MESS clean. (no floppy drive on a 464 / C64 unless you very specifically enable it, either through commandline for manual use, or because the quickstart explicitly says it's needed for what you're wanting to run)

It documents the target hardware configuration(s) for software.

It makes it clear where software is designed for multiple hardware configurations without having to duplicate it in the software lists.

It even allows for a possible fallback on really simple systems where there is only ONE device slot anyway to use the simple syntax.

I don't think it matters if there are a lot of configurations (as I said, there shouldn't be that many anyway), they only have to be written once, as opposed to requiring research and additional typing every time on the command line.

They define a sensible environment in which games were designed to be used, that's good documentation, most Amiga games weren't designed to run on a top end a4000 with expanded gfx card or whatever else. People who want to experiment like that are still free to do so, while somebody who just wants to demonstrate or play an old game for some reason has a setup they know will work for that game.

Some discretion will be needed on the part of the MESS team to decide what makes a sensible environment for each piece of software, but it's far better to have one than leave the user with no idea at all.

-----------------

essentially with computers / consoles you have

- a base system
- a hardware configuration / level of expansion for that system
- a default state of the system (HDD image with installed copy of windows etc.)
- the media / software which might also include special HW in the carts (softwarelist xmls)

a quickstart ties these together into something sensible by defining a hardware configuration and provides other useful info.

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 238
T
Senior Member
Senior Member
T Offline
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 238
Originally Posted by etabeta78
because a same gamename can be present in the floppy or in the tape list (e.g. for a game which was separately released in two formats)
I think "gamename" here is a misnomer. I think it is meant to be 'a supporting machine configuration' that can launch a particular game title that requires that configuration.

Haze #64562 09/19/10 02:45 PM
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,695
Likes: 1
Very Senior Member
Very Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,695
Likes: 1
Originally Posted by Haze
It allows the easy launching syntax of

MESS <systename> <quickstartconfigname> for basic use

It allows sensible auto-suggestion

It even allows for a possible fallback on really simple systems where there is only ONE device slot anyway to use the simple syntax.

except that it fails to work consistently across all supported systems: say you have a floppy containing a Mac System 6 game and you want to play it. Since it is not self booting, it requires the user to mount a CHD with the OS installed in addition to the disk itself.

therefore you are forced to use

mess macplus -hard1 my_hd.chd -flop1 my_game_disk

but the chd has to be defined by the user, because different persons will have different installations... or are you suggesting that users will have to manually edit the config file to add the name/location of their own chd file?

and how could an user to know in advance which systems would work with the new syntax and which will need to use the old one only?


the reason I like device switches (-cart,-flop,-hard,-cass) is not that I'm masochistic: they are easy to remember, they work across all different supported systems and they can be very easily made transparent to the user by any frontend like MESSUI itself or qmc2 (the user select which file to mount where, and then the syntax is handled by the frontend)


however, having at least some pre-configured settings added to the softlist, would be great. e.g. by referring to an external predefined config

Quote
<software name="game">
<description>My Beautiful Game</description>
<config>ami1200_4Mram.cfg</config>
</software>

or by setting the values directly in the attributes

Quote
<software name="game">
<description>My Beautiful Game</description>
<config ram="4M"/>
</software>

for games requiring a given amount of RAM.

Let's see if the new C++ devices will lead us to the point where we can add/remove items at start/reset...

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,695
Likes: 1
Very Senior Member
Very Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,695
Likes: 1
Originally Posted by The Flying Ape
Originally Posted by etabeta78
because a same gamename can be present in the floppy or in the tape list (e.g. for a game which was separately released in two formats)
I think "gamename" here is a misnomer. I think it is meant to be 'a supporting machine configuration' that can launch a particular game title that requires that configuration.

what you suggest (being able to load a specific config from command line) is exactly what I was suggesting, but not exactly what Haze and Arbee meant

they were saying: why can't you launch

mess amiga abreed

with mess loading the game with the proper settings? my answer: because we might have had both a floppy and a cd release of abreed

otoh, what you were suggesting (if I haven't misread) is to have a "-config" option to load

mess amiga -flop1 abreed -config abreed.cfg

or

mess amiga -cdrom abreed -config abreed.cfg

and have the correct settings loaded.

Personally, I agree with the latter proposal ('config' option), but I do not fully with the former (remove the media switches in some particular cases) because for systems with thousands of released items on different media format, we might end up being even more confusing for the users...


p.s. of course MESS has no universal "amiga" driver with floppies and cds, but it was useful for the examples wink

Page 3 of 5 1 2 3 4 5

Link Copied to Clipboard
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 628 guests, and 6 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
ShoutChat
Comment Guidelines: Do post respectful and insightful comments. Don't flame, hate, spam.
Forum Statistics
Forums9
Topics9,399
Posts122,883
Members5,092
Most Online3,327
Nov 10th, 2025
Our Sponsor
These forums are sponsored by Superior Solitaire, an ad-free card game collection for macOS and iOS. Download it today!

Superior Solitaire
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 8.0.0