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#76687 02/02/12 12:08 AM
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I'm new to this forum and if this topic doesn't belong here please let me know.

With the death of Steve Jobs it got me curious about the first computer that started it all, the Apple-1. Since Ive been using MAME for many years as my arcade emulator, it just made sense to use MESS for my computer emulation needs. Mainly I wanted to use MESS to see how the Apple-1 computer operated. I noticed MESS provides cassette emulation for the Apple-1 using .wav audio format. This is a unique feature, and one that makes sense because it allows software programs to be loaded into the Apple-1 with relative ease as apposed to physically typing out several thousand lines of code. What I quickly found out however .wav files for MESS Apple-1 are nearly nonexistent!

The only solution to this problem was simple. I had to learn how to make my own .wav files. I did just that. I have successfully converted Apple-1 hex dumps (binary code) into perfectly working .wav files fully compatible for the MESS Apple-1 emulator. The binary codes I used are freely distributed, so I dont believe Im infringing on any copyright laws.

Here are some of the Apple-1 .wav programs and games I currently have:

Apple 1 Basic
Apple Star Trek (1976)
StarTrek2003
Blackjack
Bowling
Buzzword
Craps
Deal or No Deal
Hamurabi
HiLo
Life
Lunar Lander
Mastermind
Microchess
Monitor
Slots
Wari
WordCross

I would like to contribute to MESS by providing my Apple-1 .wav files so others can use them. How do I go about doing this?

Here is what a few of the Apple-1 games look like in MESS with a green color overlay and HLSL enabled. Personally I think MESS looks better than OpenEmulator with the graphic options. Yes the games are very primitive but this was 1976.

Microchess by Peter Jennings
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/42/microchess.png/

Deal or No Deal
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/259/dealornodeal.png/

Apple Star Trek (1976)
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/840/applestartrek.png/

Slots
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/88/slotsw.png/

I do have Microchess for download if anyone is brave enough to learn how to use the Apple-1 emulator MESS provides.

Link: http://www.applefritter.com/content/microchesswav

Last edited by Anonymous01; 02/02/12 05:56 AM.
Anon #76693 02/02/12 01:32 AM
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Contact using the emails on
http://www.mess.org/contacts.php

Are these recorded at 44100 or 48000 or 96000hz? It may affect the recoverability of data from the wavefiles.

LN


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Thanks for the info.

My wave files are recorded at: 48000

If I need to change something, I'll be more than happy to try. I do know for a fact my .wav files as they are now, work perfect in MESS.

Last edited by Anonymous01; 02/02/12 02:42 AM.
Anon #76697 02/02/12 02:40 AM
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That should be fine, then.

EDIT: Peter Jennings' microchess (see his site at http://www.benlo.com/microchess/ ) exists for many other systems as well; I think it may have started out for the KIM-1, and commodore even made a dedicated standalone chess system licensed from peter in 1978 called the Commodore ChessMate which is INSANELY RARE; it uses two mask rom MIOT/RRIOT chips inside and a 6502, and is a wanted dump.
Peter Jennings is a really cool guy in general, he hunted down some ancient source code for one of his programs when I asked him.


LN

Last edited by Lord Nightmare; 02/02/12 07:55 AM.

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Anon #76704 02/02/12 07:38 AM
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Interesting, but primitive.

It's the first time I've seen the Apple 1 do anything. As you can guess, my knowledge of it is zero.

Anon #76705 02/02/12 07:47 AM
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I'm pretty sure lunar lander was loading in MESS at some point and I managed to play it.

Anyway, it would be really great to see these other programs too, since I find these old systems (not only the Apple 1, but also the TRS-80 Model 1 and the CBM PET) very fascinating despite their age smile

Thanks for the contribution!

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Yes I think you're right Microchess did start out for the KIM-1. I chose to use this particular version of Microchess by Peter Jennings because it seemed to work the best.

Peter Jennings seems to be very knowledgeable.





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I didn't know much about it either until fairly recently. What I found most interesting is how programs were loaded in the Apple-1 from a cassette tape!

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Originally Posted By etabeta78
I'm pretty sure lunar lander was loading in MESS at some point and I managed to play it.

Anyway, it would be really great to see these other programs too, since I find these old systems (not only the Apple 1, but also the TRS-80 Model 1 and the CBM PET) very fascinating despite their age smile

Thanks for the contribution!


Thank you and your welcome! I'm glad you find these old Apple-1 programs fascinating. I will definitely be adding many more in the near future for download! smile

Anon #76712 02/02/12 09:33 AM
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I have a lunar.wav here, but no idea how to load it.
Size is 3,347,944 bytes.

Also I have basic.bin (no idea how to use it), and basic.mp3 (i can convert it to wav - but again, how do i load it?).

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Originally Posted By etabeta78
I'm pretty sure lunar lander was loading in MESS at some point and I managed to play it.

Anyway, it would be really great to see these other programs too, since I find these old systems (not only the Apple 1, but also the TRS-80 Model 1 and the CBM PET) very fascinating despite their age smile

Thanks for the contribution!


I agree and it is still working. smile

C100R
Return
300.A00R
Return
Play Tape
300R

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Originally Posted By Robbbert
I have a lunar.wav here, but no idea how to load it.
Size is 3,347,944 bytes.

Also I have basic.bin (no idea how to use it), and basic.mp3 (i can convert it to wav - but again, how do i load it?).


So far I know, load at E000.EFFF (or E000.EFFFR, Im not sure) and start it with E000 (or E000R, Im not sure too) because it is not working for me.

Anon #76716 02/02/12 10:03 AM
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Anna: thanks, Lunar Lander works fine with those instructions. I couldn't win it though frown

Anon #76727 02/02/12 07:01 PM
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Cool, great to see some more apple-1 cassettes.

Anon #76729 02/02/12 08:45 PM
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Anonymous01: did you contact Milodrag or someone else via the mess.org/contact.php page yet about these? I'd like to try some.

LN


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Originally Posted By Lord Nightmare
Anonymous01: did you contact Milodrag or someone else via the mess.org/contact.php page yet about these? I'd like to try some.

LN


No I haven't contacted anyone from mess.org yet. It's highly unlikely I will get a response from them anyway due to the amount of e-mails they receive.

I can submit all the Apple-1 wave files here if you like. Would that be okay with you?

Anon #76732 02/02/12 09:31 PM
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I think this will be not a big roblem, what do you think Arbee?
All other A1 emulators + the Replica publish the Apple 1 Basic and the games too (ASCII format).
They are mostly Basic programs, except Lunar Lander, Microchess and of course the Apple 1 Basic.

Hopefully, your basic.wav is working on the current MESS. smile

Anon #76735 02/02/12 09:40 PM
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The people posting here *are* the mess.org guys. So please do submit them there smile

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That's great news! I'll put all the files in a zip and give an upload link soon.

Yes my basic works just fine with the current MESS. smile

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Originally Posted By R. Belmont
The people posting here *are* the mess.org guys. So please do submit them there smile



Anon #76739 02/02/12 09:48 PM
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Uhh, the mess.org guys and gals? smile

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Originally Posted By Anna Wu
I think this will be not a big roblem, what do you think Arbee?
All other A1 emulators + the Replica publish the Apple 1 Basic and the games too (ASCII format).
They are mostly Basic programs, except Lunar Lander, Microchess and of course the Apple 1 Basic.

Hopefully, your basic.wav is working on the current MESS. smile


A lot of the games I have also require basic to be loaded first like other Apple-1 emulators.

Anon #76742 02/02/12 09:57 PM
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Originally Posted By Anonymous01
Originally Posted By Anna Wu
I think this will be not a big roblem, what do you think Arbee?
All other A1 emulators + the Replica publish the Apple 1 Basic and the games too (ASCII format).
They are mostly Basic programs, except Lunar Lander, Microchess and of course the Apple 1 Basic.

Hopefully, your basic.wav is working on the current MESS. smile


A lot of the games I have also require basic to be loaded first like other Apple-1 emulators.


Like StarTrek

Load Basic at E000.EFFF

LOMEM = 768
CALL -151

C100R (load cassette)
4A.00FFR 300.FFFR

E2B3
RUN

Anon #76752 02/03/12 04:22 AM
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Apple-1 wave files.

This is an update.

All wave files should now be working correctly. For anyone who downloaded the previous zip please delete it and use this one. Sorry for the inconvenience.

http://www.mediafire.com/?9hmqrjh3y380jd7

Last edited by Anonymous01; 02/03/12 05:51 AM. Reason: Update
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Thanks for sharing smile

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SVN r14321
I`m still not able to load the Apple Basic. Not know what`s wrong.
Maybe I forgot a important step or my handling/settings are not correct.




No problems to load the Apple Basic (.wav) on the Agat emulator.



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Without knowing exactly what you did wrong. The first thing I would suggest is to make sure you are in "full emulation" before you hit "Enter" after typing E000R. You can check if you are in full emulation by hitting "Scroll Lock". If you are not if full emulation, just hit the "Scroll Lock" key again.

Example:

C100R (hit enter)
E000.EFFFR (play)
E000R (must be in full emulation before you hit "Enter")

I hope that makes sense? Let me know if that helps.

Last edited by Anonymous01; 02/03/12 07:30 AM.
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Originally Posted By Robbbert
Thanks for sharing smile


You're welcome! smile

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Originally Posted By Anonymous01
Without knowing exactly what you did wrong. The first thing I would suggest is to make sure you are in "full emulation" before you hit "Enter" after typing E000R. You can check if you are in full emulation by hitting "Scroll Lock".

Example:

C100R (hit enter)
E000.EFFFR (play)
E000R (must be in full emulation before you hit "Enter")

I hope that makes sense? Let me know if that helps.


Thanks for your fast feedback. smile
So far I remember me, the keyboard was in the full emulation mode.
I forgot to mention that I have no problems to load Assembler games like Lunar Lander or Microchess on MESS and they need the full emulation mode too.

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My steps:
Keyboard in full emulation mode

Mount Apple1Basic.wav

C100R
(Press Enter)
E000.EFFFR
(Press Enter)
(Press play Tape)
(After the cursor drop down I stop the Tape reading because the driver make it not automatically)
E000R
(Press Enter)

Anon #76760 02/03/12 07:44 AM
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I confirm Anna's report. For some reason E000R in BASIC does not produce the expected result in latest MESS...


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If Im not able to load the Apple Basic I cant check the Basic games on MESS.

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Anonymous01, can you tell me which version of MESS do you use?

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Originally Posted By Anna Wu
My steps:
Keyboard in full emulation mode


are you using the newui in MESSUI? because I can't see how do you start and stop the tape in full keyboard emulation (which makes internal UI not available wink )

anyway, it makes no difference: I use the same steps as the ones you posted with the only difference that I also switch from partial emulation to full emulation before entering E000R, and the result is the same smile


EDIT: I have just created a software list for these tapes. this should make the files easy to find even if the mediafire link would expire.
(@Anonymous01: if you want to be credited with a different name, just drop a message)

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Originally Posted By etabeta78
Originally Posted By Anna Wu
My steps:
Keyboard in full emulation mode


are you using the newui in MESSUI? because I can't see how do you start and stop the tape in full keyboard emulation (which makes internal UI not available wink )

anyway, it makes no difference: I use the same steps as the ones you posted with the only difference that I also switch from partial emulation to full emulation before entering E000R, and the result is the same smile


You are very clever, eta. smile
Anyway, I tried both (MESS with NewUI and the standard MESS)

PS: The MESS with NewUI has a menu option on the top to switch between the partial and full Keyboard emulation.

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This is a puzzle to me, as I have no problems loading basic. I want to ask you a few questions. This will help me narrow things down a bit.

What version of MESS are you using?
Are you using MESSUI or the command line version?

Another thing you can try: Dont rush through the program. Wait a few seconds (every time) before you hit the enter key.

Also always use the Tab key to enter all your play tape stop commands. (you have to be in partial emulation to do that). The only time you have to be in full emulation is when hitting the enter key after E000R.

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Originally Posted By Anna Wu
Anonymous01, can you tell me which version of MESS do you use?


I'm currently using MESSUI version 0.144.7.0 but I was using 0.144.1.0 and 0.144.0 with no problems.

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Quote:
What version of MESS are you using?

SVN r14321

Quote:
Are you using MESSUI or the command line version?


Command line (standard MESS and the MESS with NewUI)

I`m not using MESSUI. If I use a launcher then QMC2.

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Originally Posted By Anonymous01
What version of MESS are you using?


latest. command line


Originally Posted By Anonymous01
Another thing you can try: Dont rush through the program. Wait a few seconds (every time) before you hit the enter key.


tried. no difference.

Originally Posted By Anonymous01
Also always use the Tab key to enter all your play tape stop commands. (you have to be in partial emulation to do that). The only time you have to be in full emulation is when hitting the enter key after E000R.


there is no other way in baseline MESS to handle the tapes. so this cannot be the culprit here wink

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Originally Posted By etabeta78
I confirm Anna's report. For some reason E000R in BASIC does not produce the expected result in latest MESS...



This doesn't make any sense to me! : / Mine works just fine.

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Originally Posted By Anonymous01
Originally Posted By Anna Wu
Anonymous01, can you tell me which version of MESS do you use?


I'm currently using MESSUI version 0.144.7.0 but I was using 0.144.1.0 and 0.144.0 with no problems.


Do you use the official MESS releases?
If yes, the 32-bit or 64-bit version(s)?

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Originally Posted By Anonymous01
Originally Posted By Anna Wu
Anonymous01, can you tell me which version of MESS do you use?


I'm currently using MESSUI version 0.144.7.0 but I was using 0.144.1.0 and 0.144.0 with no problems.


Can you start MESS via command line to check?

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Originally Posted By Anna Wu
Originally Posted By Anonymous01
Originally Posted By Anna Wu
Anonymous01, can you tell me which version of MESS do you use?


I'm currently using MESSUI version 0.144.7.0 but I was using 0.144.1.0 and 0.144.0 with no problems.


Do you use the official MESS releases?
If yes, the 32-bit or 64-bit version(s)?


Well I use MESSUI. From what I understand MESS does not support MESSUI anymore. So I guess I'm using an "unofficial" build. I'm using a 32-bit now. frown

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Originally Posted By Anonymous01
Originally Posted By Anna Wu
Originally Posted By Anonymous01
Originally Posted By Anna Wu
Anonymous01, can you tell me which version of MESS do you use?


I'm currently using MESSUI version 0.144.7.0 but I was using 0.144.1.0 and 0.144.0 with no problems.


Do you use the official MESS releases?
If yes, the 32-bit or 64-bit version(s)?


Well I use MESSUI. From what I understand MESS does not support MESSUI anymore. So I guess I'm using an "unofficial" build. I'm using a 32-bit now. frown


If you use MESSUI what is your RAM size (Properties/Configuration) for this driver?

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If you use MESSUI what is your RAM size (Properties/Configuarion) for this driver?

My computer is old. I have 1.5 GB of RAM.

There is only one thing I can think of that may be causing your basic loading problem. After you press play, always exit to the monitor by the "Return to System" on the bottom (make sure to press the "Enter" key and not mouse clicking "Return to System").

In the past that has caused me the very same problem you are having. It's worth a try.

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Originally Posted By Anonymous01
If you use MESSUI what is your RAM size (Properties/Configuarion) for this driver?

My computer is old. I have 1.5 GB of RAM.

There is only one thing I can think of that may be causing your basic loading problem. After you press play, always exit to the monitor by the "Return to System" on the bottom (make sure to press the "Enter" key and not mouse clicking "Return to System").

In the past that has caused me the very same problem you are having. It's worth a try.


I was asking for the RAM size of the apple1 driver (MESS) smile
On MESSUI you can reach the properties if you select the apple1 driver and the menu option "File/Properties".
Go now to the tab "Configuration".

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Originally Posted By Anna Wu
Originally Posted By Anonymous01
If you use MESSUI what is your RAM size (Properties/Configuarion) for this driver?

My computer is old. I have 1.5 GB of RAM.

There is only one thing I can think of that may be causing your basic loading problem. After you press play, always exit to the monitor by the "Return to System" on the bottom (make sure to press the "Enter" key and not mouse clicking "Return to System").

In the past that has caused me the very same problem you are having. It's worth a try.


I was asking for the RAM size of the apple1 driver (MESS) smile
On MESSUI you can reach the properties if you select the apple1 driver and the menu option "File/Properties".
Go now to the tab "Configuration".


Opps sorry about that. The RAM size is 48k. smile

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Originally Posted By Anonymous01
Originally Posted By Anna Wu
Originally Posted By Anonymous01
If you use MESSUI what is your RAM size (Properties/Configuarion) for this driver?

My computer is old. I have 1.5 GB of RAM.

There is only one thing I can think of that may be causing your basic loading problem. After you press play, always exit to the monitor by the "Return to System" on the bottom (make sure to press the "Enter" key and not mouse clicking "Return to System").

In the past that has caused me the very same problem you are having. It's worth a try.


I was asking for the RAM size of the apple1 driver (MESS) smile
On MESSUI you can reach the properties if you select the apple1 driver and the menu option "File/Properties".
Go now to the tab "Configuration".


Opps sorry about that. The RAM size is 48k. smile


OK, this is the default size so it can not be the reason. smile

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Try to start your MESS.exe (if you have) via command line :
Code:
mess apple1 


PS: Here the standard MESS SVN r14301 32-bit

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Originally Posted By Anna Wu
Try to start the MESS.exe (if you have) via command line :
Code:
mess apple1 



Mess.exe loads apple1 with my newest version of MESS. I didn't use my Windows command prompt if thats what you meant? I simply clicked on my MESS.exe.

Last edited by Anonymous01; 02/03/12 09:05 AM.
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I'm all out of ideas. frown

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Originally Posted By Anonymous01
I'm all out of ideas. frown


Can you try my standard MESS build to check, please?

PS: If the Apple Basic is still working for you, pls upload your mess.ini and the apple1.ini/apple1.cfg

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Originally Posted By Anna Wu
Originally Posted By Anonymous01
I'm all out of ideas. frown


Can you try my standard MESS build to check, please?


I just used your standard build. It works perfect. I had no trouble loading basic.

Last edited by Anonymous01; 02/03/12 09:21 AM.
Anon #76783 02/03/12 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted By Anonymous01
Originally Posted By Anna Wu
Originally Posted By Anonymous01
I'm all out of ideas. frown


Can you try my standard MESS build to check, please?


Sure no problem.


If the Apple Basic is still working for you, pls upload your mess.ini and the apple1.ini/apple1.cfg

Anon #76784 02/03/12 09:26 AM
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Can't get it to work here frown

Kaylee #76786 02/03/12 09:37 AM
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Seems to be a very sensitive thing. smile

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Originally Posted By Anna Wu
Originally Posted By Anonymous01
Originally Posted By Anna Wu
Originally Posted By Anonymous01
I'm all out of ideas. frown


Can you try my standard MESS build to check, please?


Sure no problem.


If the Apple Basic is still working for you, pls upload your mess.ini and the apple1.ini/apple1.cfg


I think I have what you requested. http://www.mediafire.com/?2vpbxsxp43ugssm

Anon #76788 02/03/12 09:58 AM
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Thanks, if I use your settings I still have the same problems.
When i try using E000R it just freezes up.

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Originally Posted By Anna Wu
Thanks, if I use your settings I still have the same problems.
When i try using E000R it just freezes up.


I think you may have answered this already (I'm too tired to check) but are you using ONLY the standard MESS? I ask because something like QMC2 http://qmc2.arcadehits.net/wordpress/about/
could have a negative affect.

Youre obviously very intelligent so I hope Im not insulting your intelligence.

Anon #76790 02/03/12 10:11 AM
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Im using the standard MESS via command line. No any other external launcher, no MESSUI, no MESS with NewUI.

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Unfortunately, I can not use the copy/paste function to insert the basic dump text.
To type all by hand, I am too tired.

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I also tried this, with command-line and with MESSUI.

The results are the same as the rest. I used the debugger to see what went into memory. There was a large number of FF followed by random data.

I already have a binary dump of the Basic, so I could load it into memory with the debugger, and then save it to tape.

All I need to know is how to save a file in the Apple.

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Originally Posted By Anna Wu
Unfortunately, I can not use the copy/paste function to insert basic dump text.


Yes I know. MESS still needs to fix the copy/paste function. Well I'm not going to give up, but I am going to call it a day for now.

I'm sorry basic didn't work for you. I do know there is a solution because my wave files work for me. The solution is probably a simple one that we missed. I would like to help you find a solution.

Anyway you have a good day (or night). smile

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Originally Posted By Robbbert
I also tried this, with command-line and with MESSUI.

The results are the same as the rest. I used the debugger to see what went into memory. There was a large number of FF followed by random data.

I already have a binary dump of the Basic, so I could load it into memory with the debugger, and then save it to tape.

All I need to know is how to save a file in the Apple.


According to the sysinfo it is: xxxx.yyyyW
Not sure the addresses are the same like the adresses to load it.

Anon #76797 02/03/12 10:37 AM
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I found one that works laugh
http://www.sendspace.com/file/u1pwc0

Converted it to wav and used anonymous01's loading instructions and it works

Last edited by R. Belmont; 02/03/12 01:10 PM. Reason: I *know* you know better, but there was a rom site link anyway *sigh*
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I'm seeing the same as Anna Wu and the rest, the basic doesn't load, I've tried both the basic.mp3 converted, and the one posted here, neither works.

Loading the standalone games like Microchess works fine tho.

Maybe it's something broken in the current SVN revisions?

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Originally Posted By Kaylee
I found one that works laugh
http://www.sendspace.com/file/u1pwc0

Converted it to wav and used anonymous01's loading instructions and it works


Just as I was about to leave for the day. This is great news! Good job!! laugh

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Originally Posted By Anonymous01
but are you using ONLY the standard MESS? I ask because something like QMC2 http://qmc2.arcadehits.net/wordpress/about/
could have a negative affect.


in fact, it cannot have *any* negative effect, since it does not interfere at all with the emulator after launching it from command line. anyway, we already sorted out the fact that two devs (me and Robbbert) and two testers (Anna and Kaylee) cannot launch BASIC from command line either. so it's not a problem in the way we launch the emulator. it's probably something *after* emulation is launched wink

Originally Posted By Anonymous01
Yes I know. MESS still needs to fix the copy/paste function. Well I'm not going to give up, but I am going to call it a day for now.


the unfortunate part is that it only works for you, at the moment frown

however, this does not change the great value of your contribution and I hope our comments does not sound ungrateful. it's mostly the excitement of having new tapes to try and the frustration of not being able to do so because of issues with the BASIC

Anyway, thanks again a lot for the tapes. smile


EDIT: cool we now have a working BASIC tape! w00t!!!

Kaylee #76801 02/03/12 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted By Kaylee
I found one that works laugh
http://www.sendspace.com/file/u1pwc0

It's from here: ...

Converted it to wav and used anonymous01's loading instructions and it works


Your wav is mono, 44100Hz. Let me check ...

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Originally Posted By etabeta78

EDIT: cool we now have a working BASIC tape! w00t!!!


I think we need to find the flaw that causes the others to fail tho.

I did suspect a mono/stereo thing, but some of the tapes that work are stereo. Maybe something uninitialized, that might explain why one image works for Anon01 and not for the rest of us.

Great to see some tape dumps, even better if it helps uncover a flaw in MESS and gets it fixed ;-)

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Nice Kaylee, it works. smile
It seems mono, 44kHz is more safe.

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I loaded my binary file, and saved it with the command E000.EFFFW

I was then able to load it without issue.

You can get the new wave file from here (for the next 24 hours only)

http://messui.the-chronicles.org/apple1basic.rar


For Haze info: In the source is the threshold for the polarity detection, it is set to 0.0 - adjusting even slightly produces greatly different results. It seems unduly sensitive, so I can only guess that Anonymous01's wav file is on the borderline of acceptability. That is why I got MESS to save a new file which should be 100% reliable.

Also, the Apple1 has no error detection or checksums.. if it loads wrong you won't know till something goes wrong.

Last edited by Robbbert; 02/03/12 11:01 AM.
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Do the other basic programs work for you?

Last edited by Anonymous01; 02/03/12 11:04 AM.
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Robbert> yes, but if his wav file works for him then there must be a bug in MESS, results should not be specific to the hardware on which MESS is being run!

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Anonymous01: I loaded and ran Hammurabi, seems fine.

Haze: You could be right.

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Originally Posted By etabeta78
Originally Posted By Anonymous01
but are you using ONLY the standard MESS? I ask because something like QMC2 http://qmc2.arcadehits.net/wordpress/about/
could have a negative affect.


in fact, it cannot have *any* negative effect, since it does not interfere at all with the emulator after launching it from command line. anyway, we already sorted out the fact that two devs (me and Robbbert) and two testers (Anna and Kaylee) cannot launch BASIC from command line either. so it's not a problem in the way we launch the emulator. it's probably something *after* emulation is launched wink

Originally Posted By Anonymous01
Yes I know. MESS still needs to fix the copy/paste function. Well I'm not going to give up, but I am going to call it a day for now.


the unfortunate part is that it only works for you, at the moment frown

however, this does not change the great value of your contribution and I hope our comments does not sound ungrateful. it's mostly the excitement of having new tapes to try and the frustration of not being able to do so because of issues with the BASIC

Anyway, thanks again a lot for the tapes. smile


EDIT: cool we now have a working BASIC tape! w00t!!!


I don't know if I should be happy or pissed, but you're welcome for the tapes. wink

Anon #76809 02/03/12 11:21 AM
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the only thing I can think of, at this point, is that maybe you packed a different version of the BASIC wav than the one you are using.

it's a bit strange that the other BASIC works and yours only works at your end...

can you check if your wav file matches the following you included in the pack above:

Code:
apple1basic.wav 
size=6644780
crc32=cd5cf5a4
sha1=ef58e776683581ea6af869ee7775fc0d3ad577b9

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Originally Posted By Robbbert
Anonymous01: I loaded and ran Hammurabi, seems fine.

Haze: You could be right.


Its good to know one of my basic waves is working.

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Originally Posted By etabeta78
the only thing I can think of, at this point, is that maybe you packed a different version of the BASIC wav than the one you are using.

it's a bit strange that the other BASIC works and yours only works at your end...

can you check if your wav file matches the following you included in the pack above:

Code:
apple1basic.wav 
size=6644780
crc32=cd5cf5a4
sha1=ef58e776683581ea6af869ee7775fc0d3ad577b9


I don't have to check. I know it matches! I hope that answered your question.

I'm sure you and your team have this under control. I'm tired and my anger is starting to bleed through.

Have a good day.

Last edited by Anonymous01; 02/03/12 11:41 AM.
Anon #76812 02/03/12 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted By Anonymous01
I'm tired and my anger is starting to bleed through.
Have a good day.


just to be clear, I was interested in the confirmation you gave because as Haze pointed out there should be no difference in behavior depending on the computer MESS is run on.
so if there is a bug in Apple 1 tape handling inside MESS, no matter how subtle, it would be good to identify it and to fix it
so my inquiries were to find out if it was MESS fault and to spot the culprit, not to piss you off wink

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Originally Posted By Anonymous01
Do the other basic programs work for you?


Just load your StarTrek2003.wav and it seems to work.

Thanks for the software. smile

and thanks to all for the participation on this discussion. smile

Anon #76814 02/03/12 01:12 PM
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I'm curious - Anonymous01 says repeatedly that his BASIC loads, but he never said it *runs*. Which would therefore match the problem everyone else was having. Could we get that clarified?

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No need to be angry, Anonymous01. smile
eta just want help to find the reason why your basic.wav is not working for the other user.

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the description in his text file included with the wavs indicates that a > prompt should appear after loading basic.

this simply doesn't happen in MESS on my system with his files.

by including the instructions it would suggest he thinks it should load / run, and does for him :-) also I believe it's confirmed the same file runs on another emulator, and in my testing the .mp3 posted elsewhere (converted back to wav) behaves in the same way (for me) as the .wav included here.

personally I think this points at a MESS bug, possibly something uninitialized throwing off the load process, RAM simply doesn't contain what you'd expect it to contain after loading the tape.

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Originally Posted By etabeta78
Originally Posted By Anonymous01
I'm tired and my anger is starting to bleed through.
Have a good day.


just to be clear, I was interested in the confirmation you gave because as Haze pointed out there should be no difference in behavior depending on the computer MESS is run on.
so if there is a bug in Apple 1 tape handling inside MESS, no matter how subtle, it would be good to identify it and to fix it
so my inquiries were to find out if it was MESS fault and to spot the culprit, not to piss you off wink


"the only thing I can think of, at this point, is that maybe you packed a different version of the BASIC wav than the one you are using.

it's a bit strange that the other BASIC works and yours only works at your end..."

I apologize for being testy. It just sounded as though I was being blamed for basic not working.

I would also like to add: Why would I deliberately submit (or carelessly) pack a different version of BASIC than the one Im using? That makes no sense. Surely you can see why I would be a little offended?

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Originally Posted By Anna Wu
Originally Posted By Anonymous01
Do the other basic programs work for you?


Just load your StarTrek2003.wav and it seems to work.

Thanks for the software. smile

and thanks to all for the participation on this discussion. smile


That's good to hear Anna, and you're welcome for the software. smile

Anon #76823 02/03/12 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted By Anonymous01

I would also like to add: Why would I deliberately submit (or carelessly) pack a different version of BASIC than the one Im using? That makes no sense. Surely you can see why I would be a little offended?


I'm sure most people have have (accidentally) done worse, so it's standard procedure to make sure to ask people to double check if problems arise.

It's amazing how many times a problem comes down to something like the wrong file being sent, although in this case, because the .mp3 found elsewhere exhibits the same issues, and people can use the files you've posted successfully elsewhere I'm 99% sure it's a MESS issue.


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Originally Posted By Anonymous01
"the only thing I can think of, at this point, is that maybe you packed a different version of the BASIC wav than the one you are using.

it's a bit strange that the other BASIC works and yours only works at your end..."

I apologize for being testy. It just sounded as though I was being blamed for basic not working.

I would also like to add: Why would I deliberately submit (or carelessly) pack a different version of BASIC than the one Im using? That makes no sense. Surely you can see why I would be a little offended?


maybe the problem is English not being my first language, but I really see no offense in what I wrote.

I assumed that since you originally posted that you had to clean/remove some files when preparing the pack and since you changed the pack after less than one hour after the original post, I just feared that maybe you had packed the wrong file by mistake. it often happens to me, in other contexts.
I really don't see where you took the idea of an accusations about deliberate wrong file submission?!?
If anything, we all have been very happy of your submission as is, so I'm quite puzzled...

Anyway, it still remains the fact that your wav never loads the proper content to RAM in current MESS for anyone except you, so it would really be interesting to find where the emulation diverges in our computers compared to yours.

can you try to start MESS with the -debug switch and check the content of RAM after BASIC is loaded.
it could help to know which kind of differences you have compared to Robbbert...

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I do hope the MESS team is able to isolate these problems. It would be nice to see these Apple-1 programs in an official MESS build (if that is possible). At the very least it would be good to know (most) of my wave files are fully compatible with MESS.

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Originally Posted By Anonymous01
I do hope the MESS team is able to isolate these problems. It would be nice to see these Apple-1 programs in an official MESS build (if that is possible). At the very least it would be good to know (most) of my wave files are fully compatible with MESS.


External software and ROMs are always excluded in the official MAME/MESS releases but the Apple 1 software titles are already listed now for the hash folder.

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Originally Posted By etabeta78
Originally Posted By Anonymous01
"the only thing I can think of, at this point, is that maybe you packed a different version of the BASIC wav than the one you are using.

it's a bit strange that the other BASIC works and yours only works at your end..."

I apologize for being testy. It just sounded as though I was being blamed for basic not working.

I would also like to add: Why would I deliberately submit (or carelessly) pack a different version of BASIC than the one Im using? That makes no sense. Surely you can see why I would be a little offended?


maybe the problem is English not being my first language, but I really see no offense in what I wrote.

I assumed that since you originally posted that you had to clean/remove some files when preparing the pack and since you changed the pack after less than one hour after the original post, I just feared that maybe you had packed the wrong file by mistake. it often happens to me, in other contexts.
I really don't see where you took the idea of an accusations about deliberate wrong file submission?!?
If anything, we all have been very happy of your submission as is, so I'm quite puzzled...

Anyway, it still remains the fact that your wav never loads the proper content to RAM in current MESS for anyone except you, so it would really be interesting to find where the emulation diverges in our computers compared to yours.

can you try to start MESS with the -debug switch and check the content of RAM after BASIC is loaded.
it could help to know which kind of differences you have compared to Robbbert...


I don't know what it is about you but you have a way of rubbing me the wrong way.

I can see now why you thought I submitted the wrong basic. I would have probably thought the same thing as you. The reason I deleted my first zip was not because I had a problem with basic, it's because I had given the wrong load instruction for Hamurabi. The Hamurabi.wav file itself was fine.

The reason your statement offended me is because I took great care to insure all of my wave files were working properly (at least they are working for me anyway).

With the next issue: I have very little experience working with the -debug switch. Im not a MESS programmer. So this is something you may have to walk me through.

Anyway no hard feelings. I hope I haven't offended you. You and the rest of the people here are an outstanding bunch of individuals.

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Originally Posted By Anna Wu
Originally Posted By Anonymous01
I do hope the MESS team is able to isolate these problems. It would be nice to see these Apple-1 programs in an official MESS build (if that is possible). At the very least it would be good to know (most) of my wave files are fully compatible with MESS.


External software and ROMs are always excluded in the official MAME/MESS releases but the Apple 1 software titles are already listed for the hash folder.


That's awesome! Thank you for showing me that! smile

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Originally Posted By Anonymous01
Originally Posted By Anna Wu
Originally Posted By Anonymous01
I do hope the MESS team is able to isolate these problems. It would be nice to see these Apple-1 programs in an official MESS build (if that is possible). At the very least it would be good to know (most) of my wave files are fully compatible with MESS.


External software and ROMs are always excluded in the official MAME/MESS releases but the Apple 1 software titles are already listed for the hash folder.


That's awesome! Thank you for showing me that! smile


May you can help to complete the list like for Microchess:

Code:
<software name="microchs">
		<description>Microchess</description>
		<year>19??</year>
		<publisher>&lt;unknown&gt;</publisher>
		<info name="usage" value="Load at 1000.18FFR, enter at 1000R" />
		<part name="cass" interface="apple1_cass">
			<dataarea name="cass" size="4952">
				<rom name="microchess.wav" size="4052152" crc="9b3ca487" sha1="2317cc4a7609ebaaf2ef9e23b5f11eda4d1fbf29" offset="0" />
			</dataarea>
		</part>
	</software>


publisher = Peter R. Jennings?
year = 1976/1977?

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Wow nice job! I remember that Star Trek game being printed out in an issue of A+ magazine and typing that whole thing in to play it on my Apple II. I felt so accomplished at 11 years old after I got it saved to a disk and could play it repeatedly..

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Deal or No Deal? is this a resent game made for apple 1, or an older game made into the game show?


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I'll see what I can do Anna. I can't guarantee a time frame.

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Thank you!

That's interesting. My first computer was the "redheaded stepchild" of computers back in 1984 or 85, a used Texas Instruments TI-99/4A given to me by my uncle. I also remember typing out programs to play games. Those were the days! wink

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It should now be possible to paste in that BASIC hex dump, I find you need to hit Enter a few times first or it does E(00 instead of E000. Also the dump is too big to do in one paste so you have to split it up.

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Originally Posted By That70sguy
Deal or No Deal? is this a resent game made for apple 1, or an older game made into the game show?


From what I understand it's a recent game made for the "Apple 1 Replica". The Apple-1 hex dumps are freely distributed from "Briel Computers" I used the "Deal or No Deal" hex dump so it can be used for MESS Apple-1.

Here is a video of the Apple 1 Replica. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIHMfpKwjkw

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Originally Posted By Justin
It should now be possible to paste in that BASIC hex dump, I find you need to hit Enter a few times first or it does E(00 instead of E000. Also the dump is too big to do in one paste so you have to split it up.

Two questions:

01. Is the copy/paste function correctly/fully working now?
02. Is it necessary to paste a BASIC hex dump? It's my understanding someone found a working basic.wav file.

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I posted a fully-working wave file created by MESS, but seems it was ignored. It has now been deleted.

To simplify matters in my local build, I will most likely add the basic as a rom.

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Originally Posted By Robbbert
I posted a fully-working wave file created by MESS, but seems it was ignored. It has now been deleted.

To simplify matters in my local build, I will most likely add the basic as a rom.


Why would your basic wave file be ignored? A number of people seemed to be working hard on finding a basic wave that worked. I certainly didn't ignore it. I downloaded it as soon as you posted it (even though the one I have already works).

I wanted to ask you, how were you able to make a fully-working wave file in MESS? Will you please teach me step by step exactly how you did that? I'm very interested!

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I thought the wave file from (extremely well known Apple archive named after a science fiction author) worked fine? I don't understand why Justin is pasting in hex dumps and Robbbert is hoarding wav files.

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Originally Posted By R. Belmont
I thought the wave file from (extremely well known Apple archive named after a science fiction author) worked fine?

So one of your hobbies according to your profile is mischief? I believe it. wink

I know how to make .wav files from hex, but I'd like to know how Robbbert is able to do it in MESS. The wave files created in MESS would be much more stable and compatible.

Last edited by Anonymous01; 02/05/12 04:46 AM.
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Anon01: A long time ago someone posted a file containing a MP3 and a BIN of the basic. It may have even been this forum, but since the search doesn't work, you'll probably be unable to find it.

Steps:
- Place BIN file in the same folder as MESS
- start apple1 in debug mode: mess apple1 -debug
- load the BIN file into memory: load basic.bin,e000,1000
- start the apple1: g
- click on the apple1 window
- use the device menu to create a new tape (basic.wav)
- use the device menu to choose Record
- C100R
- E000.EFFFW
- When the prompt returns, use the device menu to choose Stop
- use the device menu to choose Unmount.
- click in the debug window and enter q

All done. Make sure you turn off the debug switch next time (use -nodebug).


If you want to use MESSUI, right-click on Apple1, choose Properties, Debug, Activate Integrated Debugger.

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Thank you Robbbert! You're awesome!! I'm going to try this out as soon as I can. laugh

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Originally Posted By R. Belmont
I'm curious - Anonymous01 says repeatedly that his BASIC loads, but he never said it *runs*. Which would therefore match the problem everyone else was having. Could we get that clarified?

I know this is an old post but I still want to answer your question. I'm able to play basic games. Would that not be possible if my BASIC.wav was not loaded and properly working?

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I got BASIC working from the tape Kaylee posted, I'm just saying that the keyboard issues that were preventing pasting from working at all are now fixed. Even if you load BASIC from tape it's still quite useful to be able to e.g. paste in a BASIC program listing.

It's still not 100% because the shift key can be a bit sticky (probably due to bug 1685) and because of bug 687 which it would be nice if someone on the MAME side could deal with (the buffer size is now defined in emu/ioport.c).

Last edited by Justin; 02/05/12 09:03 AM.
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Bug 1685 - Reported: 2008-09-23 10:17
Bug 687 - Reported: 2005-03-26 00:35

Judging by how old the bugs are it doesn't look like they are going to be fixed anytime soon.

I have been able to paste code but the paste function would never paste the colon. (:)

Strange?


Last edited by Anonymous01; 02/05/12 11:20 AM.
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Originally Posted By Anonymous01
Bug 1685 - Reported: 2008-09-23 10:17
Bug 687 - Reported: 2005-03-26 00:35

Judging by how old the bugs are it doesn't look like they are going to be fixed anytime soon.

I have been able to paste code but the paste function would never paste the colon. (:)
Strange?



Right, a reason why I cant paste the Basic ASCII dump.

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Anna

I wonder why copy/past function hasn't been fixed yet?

I also want to ask: Which Apple-1 wave files I submitted (except basic of course) are not working for you?

Anon #76894 02/05/12 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted By Anonymous01
Bug 1685 - Reported: 2008-09-23 10:17
Bug 687 - Reported: 2005-03-26 00:35

Judging by how old the bugs are it doesn't look like they are going to be fixed anytime soon.

I have been able to paste code but the paste function would never paste the colon. (:)

Strange?



That doesn't mean they will never get fixed smile

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Quote:
I also want to ask: Which Apple-1 wave files I submitted (except basic of course) are not working for you?

Not tested at all. Lunar Lander, Mastermind, Microchess and StarTrek2003 are working.

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Originally Posted By Anonymous01
I have been able to paste code but the paste function would never paste the colon. (:)

Strange?


Yes, this is the very thing I just fixed in SVN (along with other punctuation).

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Originally Posted By Anna Wu
Quote:
I also want to ask: Which Apple-1 wave files I submitted (except basic of course) are not working for you?

Not tested at all. Lunar Lander, Mastermind, Microchess and StarTrek2003 are working.

What is not tested at all? Are you saying all the other games besides the ones you mentioned still need to be tested?

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Originally Posted By Justin
Originally Posted By Anonymous01
I have been able to paste code but the paste function would never paste the colon. (:)

Strange?


Yes, this is the very thing I just fixed in SVN (along with other punctuation).

This is good news! So will your fixes be available in the next version of MESS? Forgive me for asking what may seem like a stupid question. I'm the "Noob Kid On The Block" and I have no idea how these things work. smile

Anon #76906 02/05/12 08:51 PM
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Yes, and the fixes are available now if you pull SVN and build your own smile

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That's great! Thanks for the reply. smile

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Originally Posted By Anonymous01
Originally Posted By Anna Wu
Quote:
I also want to ask: Which Apple-1 wave files I submitted (except basic of course) are not working for you?

Not tested at all. Lunar Lander, Mastermind, Microchess and StarTrek2003 are working.

What is not tested at all? Are you saying all the other games besides the ones you mentioned still need to be tested?


Not know but Iam surely not alone here to test all. ; )
Dont forget the feedback from Robbbert about another Basic game.
Believe me, I have to do a lot of other things too. smile

PS: If I have time I ll test the rest.

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I'm not trying to monopolize all your time. I just wanted clarification. I didn't fully understand what you meant.

Thanks for all your help. It's been greatly appreciated! wink

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To paste the colon seems to fixed now, thanks. smile
Unfortunately, I still can not paste the full Basic dump, it stops after a while.
Maybe it is too much and the buffer is not big enough.

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I think its a buffer issue after 2000-2500 characters or so. Judge was looking into it. It also affects coco.

LN


"When life gives you zombies... *CHA-CHIK!* ...you make zombie-ade!"
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Judge actually has a patch that lets the buffer grow dynamically attached to the bug cited earlier in this thread. Would be nice if someone could test it and maybe apply it before 0.145.

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Originally Posted By R. Belmont
Judge actually has a patch that lets the buffer grow dynamically attached to the bug cited earlier in this thread. Would be nice if someone could test it and maybe apply it before 0.145.


The patch is not submitted right now, correct?
If so its difficult to check.

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The current patch doesn't work, Judge is working on it.

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Originally Posted By Justin
The current patch doesn't work, Judge is working on it.


Ahh, OK smile

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There's a buffer issue after 4096 characters, i'm trying to make it grow with 4096 each time it overflows. Which is better than just always allocating a big buffer imo.

Last edited by judge; 02/06/12 06:54 PM.
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Originally Posted By judge
There's a buffer issue after 4096 characters, i'm trying to make it grow with 4096 each time it overflows. Which is better than just always allocating a big bugger imo.


Quoting before edit

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Hehe :P

Anyway, I got a working patch now.

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Originally Posted By judge
Hehe :P

Anyway, I got a working patch now.


I do not. ; )

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Originally Posted By Anna Wu
Originally Posted By judge
Hehe :P

Anyway, I got a working patch now.


I do not. ; )


You do now wink

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Originally Posted By judge
Originally Posted By Anna Wu
Originally Posted By judge
Hehe :P

Anyway, I got a working patch now.


I do not. ; )


You do now wink


Nice job, judge. smile
I am able now to load the Apple Basic via copy/paste function (512 lines, 13826 characters total)



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Short function test.



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Apple-1 Cassettes New Updates!

01. New "Basic" wave file (thanks to Robbbert!)
02. New game "Football"
03. New comprehensive instructions for loading games and programs
04. New "Blackjack" wave and correct load instructions
05. New "StarTrek.txt" game instructions

My new basic.wav is working. If it were not correctly working it would not be possible to load and play
Apple-1 basic "football".


Download Cassettes here: http://www.mediafire.com/?1lyzgos6hsdkkg7

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Originally Posted By Anonymous01
Apple-1 Cassettes New Updates!


Thank you! smile

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Originally Posted By Robbbert
Originally Posted By Anonymous01
Apple-1 Cassettes New Updates!


Thank you! smile

You're welcome! smile

You are the only person who has left a message since I submitted the new zip. I guess people here have either got bored or just plain sick of me.

Thanks again for the basic.wav and that great MESS tutorial! It's fun to learn something new from someone with a high degree of skill and knowledge.

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Nah, its Saturday night, everyone is partying. I downloaded the zip...

LN


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I'm a little confused by how "official" this software is... as far as putting it into a softlist or something, these are all BASIC programs like you would type in from a computer hobbyist magazine, correct? Or was this more like commercial software?

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Originally Posted By Stiletto
I'm a little confused by how "official" this software is... as far as putting it into a softlist or something, these are all BASIC programs like you would type in from a computer hobbyist magazine, correct? Or was this more like commercial software?

I really don't know what is considered "official" since I didn't get my Apple-1 hex dumps from old magazines. So your guess is nearly as good as mine as to how "official" my Apple-1 codes are.

Yes these games could be typed into the Apple-1 monitor.

My files are from free Apple-1 hex dumps available all over the Internet anyone can download freely and use freely for the Apple-1 computer.

I will say I did get most of the freely distributed hex dumps from Briel Computers. I didn't see anything on their web page to make me believe it was illegal or morally wrong to convert their Apple-1 hex dumps into working wave files compatible for MESS Apple-1. All but three programs are BASIC games by the way.

If you or anyone believes my Apple-1 wave files don't belong in the software list, or if anyone believes my Apple-1 wave files dont belong in MESS at all, I will gladly take them down.

I don't want any trouble. I just wanted to share these Apple-1 programs/games so others can enjoy them in MESS.

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Thanks. I hope all the games work for you. smile

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Originally Posted By Stiletto
I'm a little confused by how "official" this software is... as far as putting it into a softlist or something, these are all BASIC programs like you would type in from a computer hobbyist magazine, correct? Or was this more like commercial software?


If you buy a magazine (commercial product) with a listing in, surely it is a commercial release, just using 'paper' for storage media, instead of tape or floppy ;-)

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Given the very small amount of software for the system, I think it's unproductive to split hairs as to its origin. Include everything, Mars Needs Test Cases!

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Originally Posted By Haze
If you buy a magazine (commercial product) with a listing in, surely it is a commercial release, just using 'paper' for storage media, instead of tape or floppy ;-)


I hope the lists in the future will include disks from magazines also. Like you said they are commercial software just stored differently.

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AFAIK they're already eligible, or at least any Magazine CDs were included when I did the CD softlists. I don't think there was ever any issue with those being seen as commercial.

Some demo versions can be pretty interesting / different versions of the games.

Anyway, lets not derail the topic. Test software is always interesting, and while I doubt a program done in basic is going to push the limits of a machine and show up emulation issues it's still worthwhile to show that the driver works, the chances of somebody wanting to run a driver with *no* known software is rather minimal :-)

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Originally Posted By Haze
AFAIK they're already eligible, or at least any Magazine CDs were included when I did the CD softlists. I don't think there was ever any issue with those being seen as commercial.

Some demo versions can be pretty interesting / different versions of the games.

Anyway, lets not derail the topic. Test software is always interesting, and while I doubt a program done in basic is going to push the limits of a machine and show up emulation issues it's still worthwhile to show that the driver works, the chances of somebody wanting to run a driver with *no* known software is rather minimal :-)

This is certainly good news. Thank you for the positive feedback! :-)

I agree different versions of games can be pretty interesting. What Ive come to find, different versions of games can actually be better in many cases than the original.

On topic with regards to a driver with no known software: How boring!

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Here is a command line tool for anyone who would like to make his or her own Apple-1 and II (II, II+, //e) wave files (cassettes). This is the same tool I've been using for the Apple-1. http://www.callapple.org/2012/01/16/c2t-binary-conversion-tool-now-online/

SHORT DESCRIPTION:
c2t is a command line tool that can convert binary code/data and/or Apple-1/II Monitor text, as well as 140K disk images, into audio files suitable for use with the Apple-1 and II (II, II+, //e) cassette interface.

c2t Full Documentation http://asciiexpress.net/files/c2t.html

If anyone needs help with the tool, please don't be afraid to ask. I'm not an expert but I'll be glad to share what I know.

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