Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 3 of 4 1 2 3 4
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 4,625
A
Very Senior Member
Offline
Very Senior Member
A
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 4,625
JD, calm down. smile

Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 997
Likes: 4
S
Senior Member
Offline
Senior Member
S
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 997
Likes: 4
Originally Posted By R. Belmont
They must've had some good stuff in the water in West Chester smile


They DO! laugh

Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 19
D
Member
Offline
Member
D
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 19
Originally Posted By R. Belmont
Oh, so the C65 is unique in computer history in being unemulatable at the hardware level? They must've had some good stuff in the water in West Chester smile

Oh, it is emulatable, all right. As long as you can find the answers to questions like
"These two C65s behave differently when executing this routine, which behavior must be considered correct?"
"This C65 does something that does not make sense, and the manual says it should do something else: should the emulator reproduce the former behavior for hardware accuracy, or the latter for logical consistency?"
"This part is described in the manual but is missing in the actual machine: in order to achieve maximum accuracy, should I emulate it or not?"
"The manual describes a feature, but does not say anything about how it's accessed on the actual machine: should I avoid to implement it and break compatibility with the actual machine, or code it the way I guess it's used and break compatibility with the actual machine?"

In short, it can be done that way, but it's just not worth the hassle, which is why I did not do it that way.
Originally Posted By Anna Wu
The audio is still not supported, right?

Right.
Originally Posted By Just Desserts
Fuck off, you insufferable wanker.

Thank you for your kind words, sir. I shall take them into great consideration, because you obviously are a sophisticated, intelligent person whose knowledge of the Commodore 65 is higher than anyone else's on this forum.

Last edited by Devil Master; 09/19/13 05:40 PM.
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 4,625
A
Very Senior Member
Offline
Very Senior Member
A
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 4,625
Originally Posted By Anna Wu
Quote:
... Version 2 is out, and it does have a blinking cursor! As well as 1D array support, more resolutions, windowed mode, some bugfixes and some easter eggs. The URL is always the same: http://devilmaster.altervista.org/hi65.html .


The audio is still not supported, right?


A direct program editing with copy/paste function will be not bad. smile

Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 19
D
Member
Offline
Member
D
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 19
Originally Posted By Anna Wu
A direct program editing with copy/paste function will be not bad. smile

I might add something like that for the next release, as part of the Hi65 Launch Tool.

Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 4,625
A
Very Senior Member
Offline
Very Senior Member
A
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 4,625
okidoki smile

Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,648
H
Very Senior Member
Offline
Very Senior Member
H
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,648
Originally Posted By Devil Master

"These two C65s behave differently when executing this routine, which behavior must be considered correct?"


You find out why, and provide emulation of both models, assuming one isn't just faulty due to HW failure.

This is far from specific to the C65, different ZX Spectrum models (even ones that look the same externally) have slightly different behavior and there are some games that are incompatible with certain board revisions. The professional emulators emulate every timing detail / side-effect of every official model at a low level.

Quote:

"This C65 does something that does not make sense, and the manual says it should do something else: should the emulator reproduce the former behavior for hardware accuracy, or the latter for logical consistency?"


You do what the hardware does, what the manual says is irrelevant.

Quote:

"This part is described in the manual but is missing in the actual machine: in order to achieve maximum accuracy, should I emulate it or not?"


If it's not there you don't emulate it, if it's optional, you make it an option.

Quote:

"The manual describes a feature, but does not say anything about how it's accessed on the actual machine: should I avoid to implement it and break compatibility with the actual machine, or code it the way I guess it's used and break compatibility with the actual machine?"


You run tests on the hardware to figure out how it works, or figure out how it works based on software that needs it. We do this all the time, for hundreds of machines.

Quote:

In short, it can be done that way, but it's just not worth the hassle, which is why I did not do it that way.


This is your opinion, trying to HLE everything is actually more hassle in the long run and will only lead to people writing bad code for the system that doesn't stand a chance of running on any real machine.

Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 19
D
Member
Offline
Member
D
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 19
Originally Posted By Haze
trying to HLE everything is actually more hassle in the long run and will only lead to people writing bad code for the system that doesn't stand a chance of running on any real machine.

In this particular case, HLE is something I can afford. After all, most C65 owners care more about the integrity of their hardware than they do about running software on it, so they will keep it locked inside a glass cabinet and never turn it on. Case in point: last year I went to a retrocomputing exhibit where I've been able to see and touch a C65, but when I asked the owner to switch it on, he refused because "some circuits might get burned". Another retrocomputing enthusiast told me just today that he likes collecting original machines, but he always ends up running the software on emulators because they are far more practical. So, if people start writing C65 code, the probability that that code will ever be loaded on an actual C65, with its quirks and bugs, is extremely low smile

Although, if we were talking about a C64 emulator, I would agree about your position on HLE, because of the abundance of C64 software that exists, that must be run on a low-level emulator because it exploits all kinds of quirks of the original hardware.
But I'll never make a C64 emulator anyway: considering the quality of those that already exist, I'd be just reinventing the wheel.

Last edited by Devil Master; 09/19/13 08:27 PM.
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,555
J
Very Senior Member
Offline
Very Senior Member
J
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,555
Btw, there's an undumped PAL at U22.

Joined: May 2009
Posts: 1,923
Likes: 3
J
Very Senior Member
Offline
Very Senior Member
J
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 1,923
Likes: 3
Originally Posted By Devil Master
In this particular case, HLE is something I can afford.


Huh, there are a bunch of arcade boards supported in MAME that are either priceless due to being unique prototypes/location tests, or are roughly the same cost as what C65 protos go for at auction. Fuck it, we should just HLE those games too, right?

Page 3 of 4 1 2 3 4

Link Copied to Clipboard
Who's Online Now
8 members (AJR, algrun, Pernod, R. Belmont, ksherlock, Hydreigon, Golden Child, Fake Shemp), 33 guests, and 0 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
ShoutChat
Comment Guidelines: Do post respectful and insightful comments. Don't flame, hate, spam.
Forum Statistics
Forums9
Topics8,921
Posts117,204
Members4,989
Most Online890
Jan 17th, 2020
Forum Host
These forums are hosted by www.retrogamesformac.com
Forum hosted by www.retrogamesformac.com