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Re: TMS-09xx/1xxx thread (was New Dumps) [Re: Rik] #111111
10/18/17 09:16 PM
10/18/17 09:16 PM
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ICEknight Offline
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Originally Posted by Rik
but Coleco Donkey Kong and Pac-Man are much easier... And you can make them geometrically perfect...
Wouldn't that be a bad thing, if the originals weren't geometrically perfect?

Also, even when some graphics are being repeated, they may be just slightly different... I think that (as in all the latest SVGs) even the small imperfections across things like the score counters' digits may be worth preserving, since that's how the real things look.


LCD artwork cleanups: https://mega.nz/#F!uFYSzK7S!U-lJon9jsqyoCX_3y7_KLA
Re: TMS-09xx/1xxx thread (was New Dumps) [Re: seanriddle] #111112
10/18/17 11:26 PM
10/18/17 11:26 PM
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hap Offline
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Here's something funny.
In the past, I've read wrong assumptions posted as facts about Nintendo Game & Watch hardware details. It was commonly accepted that everything was hardwired and there's no CPU(or MCU). This one is the most elaborate lie I've seen yet about it laugh
Quote
I was involved with hardware remakes / clones of a few machines and we did reverse engineer one G&W game; I think it was Green House, if I remember well.

The games are build around a custom ASIC and the rest of the circuitry is essentially support for it.

As a side note, if you've ever opened a G&W game double screen game, you'll have noticed that the main chip is sitting 45° from the main board and this was done because at the time the boards were soldered through a wave soldering machine and it allows all the pins to be properly soldered without bridges between them.

Let me tell you how they work but be prepared that it will totally kill the magic:

The whole game is essentially a polynomial generator and a few shift registers.

The polynomial unit will generate the same bit stream every single time it is started. Its output is fed to a de-multiplexer and each output feeds a shift register. Each bit in these registers is tied to an element in the LCD.

All motion done by the player is also mapped in a shift register and then a simple hardwired AND determines collisions. Possible actions in a given state are encoded in a matrix and the logic can swap bits at specific positions.

The game gets faster and faster by just changing the clock (which is essentially gated by another shift register).

Now with this information in mind, play the games again and you'll be able to see the logic at work where the player is essentially always on a long bit string and that when the objects become faster, so does the player input, etc.

We didn't reverse other games, but I see no reason why they'd have a different hardware since only one small matrix on top of that system can make a different game; Zelda is different, but it came years after the rest and I have no clue how it is made.

There is a bit more logic to it, but that's essentially it; some of the logic is to drive the screen; I don't remember the reason but I was explained that LCD screens from that era needed the segments to be toggled on / off to prevent some damage, apparently it's the same in watches; if anyone worked with that technology, I'd be happy to understand the details.

The hardware is tiny and could be re-implemented in a FPGA in an afternoon, but it was really clever since there is no CPU involved; It would be trivial to recreate the ASIC in software as well with very little code where each game is a different table.


found here: https://retrocomputing.stackexchang...ard-of-the-original-game-watch-ball?rq=1
note: G&W Greenhouse chip = a Sharp SM5xx series MCU.

Re: TMS-09xx/1xxx thread (was New Dumps) [Re: hap] #111113
10/19/17 12:36 AM
10/19/17 12:36 AM
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Originally Posted by hap
Here's something funny.


Find his email address and chew him out, hap! laugh

Re: TMS-09xx/1xxx thread (was New Dumps) [Re: seanriddle] #111114
10/19/17 01:56 AM
10/19/17 01:56 AM
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seanriddle Offline OP
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Interesting. Klaus of Team Europe sent me a couple of simple Sonic LCD games from McDonald's that were globbed. I decapped them and they don't have MCUs: https://seanriddledecap.blogspot.com/2017/10/

But these only have 1 or 2 buttons and very few segments.

The later Simon games ditched the TMS1000 for a custom chip. Paul Robson reverse engineered the TMS1000 code and says it's basically a finite state machine: http://simontosimon.blogspot.com/2015/06/hacking-code-bit.html

I wonder if that was intentional to make conversion to a custom design easier.

Re: TMS-09xx/1xxx thread (was New Dumps) [Re: seanriddle] #111115
10/19/17 02:50 AM
10/19/17 02:50 AM
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Originally Posted by seanriddle
Interesting. Klaus of Team Europe sent me a couple of simple Sonic LCD games from McDonald's that were globbed. I decapped them and they don't have MCUs: https://seanriddledecap.blogspot.com/2017/10/


I have the Tails shooter game - it's not too bad for what it is. Interesting that it's just a state machine.

Re: TMS-09xx/1xxx thread (was New Dumps) [Re: hap] #111116
10/19/17 08:07 AM
10/19/17 08:07 AM
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Originally Posted by hap
Here's something funny.
In the past, I've read wrong assumptions posted as facts about Nintendo Game & Watch hardware details. It was commonly accepted that everything was hardwired and there's no CPU(or MCU). This one is the most elaborate lie I've seen yet about it laugh


It might be a different version though?

Re: TMS-09xx/1xxx thread (was New Dumps) [Re: seanriddle] #111118
10/19/17 03:23 PM
10/19/17 03:23 PM
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hap Offline
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Somehow I doubt that for a game as complex as Green House, including a digital watch. What's a 'polynomial generator' anyway? A semi random LFSR or something?

Re: TMS-09xx/1xxx thread (was New Dumps) [Re: seanriddle] #111119
10/19/17 03:30 PM
10/19/17 03:30 PM
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Haze Offline
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Originally Posted by seanriddle
Interesting. Klaus of Team Europe sent me a couple of simple Sonic LCD games from McDonald's that were globbed. I decapped them and they don't have MCUs: https://seanriddledecap.blogspot.com/2017/10/

But these only have 1 or 2 buttons and very few segments.


so what would you do in a case like this? would it come down to something like the TTL emulation for Pong?

Re: TMS-09xx/1xxx thread (was New Dumps) [Re: seanriddle] #111120
10/19/17 04:10 PM
10/19/17 04:10 PM
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seanriddle Offline OP
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Yeah, but with the added complexity of having to map all the transistors on the die to figure out the gates. Nothing on par with Visual6502, of course, but still a lot of work.

Re: TMS-09xx/1xxx thread (was New Dumps) [Re: hap] #111121
10/19/17 05:18 PM
10/19/17 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by hap
Somehow I doubt that for a game as complex as Green House, including a digital watch. What's a 'polynomial generator' anyway? A semi random LFSR or something?


Didn't the Sharp SM5x series have an LFSR for its program counter? Could be the person just wildly mis-remembering it.

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